D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

[Markdoc]

Re: ~ All Out War~d&d Vs Hero Vs Palladium

 

Then' date=' I'd say that Fantasy Hero would go down. Why? Well, I love the flexibility of Fantasy Hero rules, but every 'talent' in the FH book is a copy of a DnD Feat or Class Ability. [/quote']

 

Heh heh heh. This reminds me of all those guys who go "Warhammer? They're totally ripping Blizzard off!" It's a little hard to see that Fanatsy Hero talents as "copies" of DnD feats and class abilities when many of them have existed longer than DnD has had feats. Monte Cook specifically mentioned Hero as one of the influences on the generation of feats for DnD. Now, it does go both ways - FH does rip off some DnD feats and some of them in a dreadfully clumsy way.

 

And if you want to use your own monsters or magic system? You're SOL. Good luck finding any resources that don't use the 'standard' magic system. How do you mediate between mages and other PCs who can pick up weaons more powerful than the standard heroic 60-point cap? (and they don't have to pay character points for) It's a lot more headache than it's worth.

 

Really? I've been running a game that's apparently impossible to actually run for years. Who knew?

 

Now it is true that DnD has far more suport material and I actually like some of their current settings: but even when I GM'ed DnD I homebrewed all my stuff. Doing it in Hero is a little more effort, but it's not that different.

 

DnD (3.X) would win in my opinion. If only for it's basic play-style and long-standing history of doing-it-right. Sure, there are lots of idiotic things in DnD - right down to the random treasure tables, random encounters, and the basic idea of Duneoneering itself. I think the rules do provide a backbone upon which you can hang lots of different campaign settings. For instance, I'm running a hugely successful year-long Arthurian/Norse/Celtic campaign - where the only time the rules come in is during combat and combat only happens once every three or four games. Yes - I'm running a DnD game where combat happens at most 1/3 of the gaming sessions. Shock and Horror! but when combat does happen, everyone jumps in and it's over QUICKLY (unlike most HERO combats...) enough to help motivate the plot.

 

I don't think that the fight between DnD and FH would be easy. Maybe not even a sure win for DnD 3.X. But I do think that DnD would eventually win, especially with what I hear about DnD 4.0.

 

Those are my thoughts!

 

-S!

 

Well in terms of sales, DnD certainly wins. I've nothing against it - I'm off to play DnD in about 3 hours myself. But we're only 5th/6th level currently and we're already hitting the wall where fights take longer than in my FH game where the players have been playing for far longer and so are presumably more "experienced".

 

As to the fight it out aspect, I know several GM's that have chosen to switch from DnD to Hero and even one or two who switched back - but only briefly, and then returned to Hero. I don't know of any GMs who have chosen to switch from Hero to DnD.

 

cheers, Mark

[tkdguy]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

Years ago, I did a nonmagical fantasy. No problem in FH; lots of work in D&D, no matter which edition.

 

Hey why isn't GURPS Fantasy included in this brouhaha?

[Markdoc]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

Years ago, I did a nonmagical fantasy. No problem in FH; lots of work in D&D, no matter which edition.

 

Hey why isn't GURPS Fantasy included in this brouhaha?

 

Because nobody actually plays GURPS fantasy

 

cheers, Mark

[Captain Obvious]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

People play GURPS? I thought it was a line of sourcebooks.

 

*ducks and runs*

[CTaylor]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

This didn't specify if it was unarmed combat or not. If it is, D20 just grinds to a halt trying to figure out how on earth to fight without weapons and surrenders.

[Blue Jogger]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

This didn't specify if it was unarmed combat or not. If it is' date=' D20 just grinds to a halt trying to figure out how on earth to fight without weapons and surrenders.[/quote']

 

And by surrendering, do you mean it takes enough subduing damage that its surrenders? Or can it surrender volunteeraly?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

And by surrendering' date=' do you mean it takes enough subduing damage that its surrenders? Or can it surrender volunteeraly?[/quote']

 

Back to the "which edition" question. 2e removed the ability to force dragons (and only dragons) to surrender with subdual damage. 3e removed most of the differentiation between unarmed and armed attacks.

[mayapuppies]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

Except for grappling

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

Except for grappling

 

Just like Hero has separate Grab maneuvers, effects and means of escape, yes.

 

Oh, and just as they are commonly subject to errors (how often does the need to roll to hit again to inflict damage while maintaining a hold get forgotten by experienced Hero players?).

[atlascott]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

1st Edition AD&D wins.

 

d20/3rd Ed/2.5 Ed. stinks. The main problem is that their character progression/prestige class concept is terribly broken. We will see what 4th Ed has to offer.

 

Fantasy HERO is pretty terrible. It's really not a fair fight. The other game systems are actual systems and compelte games. With FH, you, the gamer, have to design, playtest, and implement the entire game using the HERO system metarules, including designing and implementing an entire magic system, and balance it against other forms of damage dealing. Last-gen FH stuff is basically junk--broken bits stitched together in a Frankenstein mish-mash whose apologists justify by calling it a 'toolkit.' The success and proliferation of simpler games proves conclusively that a do it yourself and ruin your campaign as you constantly tweak and change the rules type toolkit is NOT what plays want.

 

HERO system cannot do a decent, traditional, D&D/ Arduin/Warhammer FRP magic system. It's either too powerful, too weak, and a huge pain in the behind.

 

That said, I look forward to buying the new FH to see if they learned their lession or if it is more of the same.

[incrdbil]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

1st Edition AD&D wins.

 

d20/3rd Ed/2.5 Ed. stinks. The main problem is that their character progression/prestige class concept is terribly broken. We will see what 4th Ed has to offer.

 

i'm sort of bemused by that. You're accepting all the lovely stuff that came in Unearthed Arcana as non-broken? Or how multoi-classer's were gods, while single or dual classeed types were hopeless underperforming meat shields? i mean..still, hit points, levels, and a magic system made up of 'well, I guess this spell fits at that level'.

 

Fantasy HERO is pretty terrible. It's really not a fair fight. The other game systems are actual systems and compelte games.

 

So is tic-tac-toe, and D&D is almostas straight-jacketed as that game.

 

With FH, you, the gamer, have to design, playtest, and implement the entire game using the HERO system metarules, including designing and implementing an entire magic system, and balance it against other forms of damage dealing.

 

Unless you grab a setting. If you make a unique setting with a unique magic system for D&D, you have to do the same. if you say, 'no, just use whats in the book'..I point you to the FH books.

 

 

HERO system cannot do a decent, traditional, D&D/ Arduin/Warhammer FRP magic system.

 

It can, but why go out and make a bad system when you can make a good one?

 

 

 

That said, I look forward to buying the new FH to see if they learned their lession or if it is more of the same.

 

FH is flexible enough that I'll say, bluntly, if you can't use its rules to adequately bring forth the setting you aim at out of it, the fault is very likely with the GM.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

1st Edition AD&D wins.

 

d20/3rd Ed/2.5 Ed. stinks. The main problem is that their character progression/prestige class concept is terribly broken. We will see what 4th Ed has to offer.

 

Fantasy HERO is pretty terrible. It's really not a fair fight. The other game systems are actual systems and compelte games. With FH, you, the gamer, have to design, playtest, and implement the entire game using the HERO system metarules, including designing and implementing an entire magic system, and balance it against other forms of damage dealing. Last-gen FH stuff is basically junk--broken bits stitched together in a Frankenstein mish-mash whose apologists justify by calling it a 'toolkit.' The success and proliferation of simpler games proves conclusively that a do it yourself and ruin your campaign as you constantly tweak and change the rules type toolkit is NOT what plays want.

 

HERO system cannot do a decent, traditional, D&D/ Arduin/Warhammer FRP magic system. It's either too powerful, too weak, and a huge pain in the behind.

 

That said, I look forward to buying the new FH to see if they learned their lession or if it is more of the same.

 

You do that because if the "fix" it they will have lost me. Fantasy Hero is the only one of these I could stand to run. I might have a midlife crisis and what to return to the silliness of my youth and play D&D sometime but I doubt it. HERO products provide you the tools to make the world YOU want. I what to run my vision these days not someone else's. I what a system that you can duplicate fiction and books not only itself and it unique self created genre. That being said, If you just what a plop it down and play with little trouble, D&D was always the way to go. Wild fun nights back in college. We were all homicidal munchins back then but we had fun, its just not for me anymore. For me the basic mechanics and the toolkit IS what I want. Fantasy HERO is crushed D&D by the numbers but it shouldn't try to be D&D when its base wants something completely different. So to me D&D is the best commercial success but Fantasy HERO is what's best for me and Palladium has got some good ideas but is as unplayable as it gets.

[CTaylor]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

just like Hero has separate Grab maneuvers, effects and means of escape, yes.

 

No, not even remotely like that. D20's grappling rules are unspeakably complex to the point no on I have even heard of has even used it. There's no comparison.

 

And Fantasy Hero works great, just like Champions and any other genre that hero has put out. If your complaint is "in order to make my own universe I have to build everything from scratch" that's true about D20 as well. If you don't want to use one of the prebuilt systems for D&D, you have to make your own spell system, your own spells, your own setting, your own dungeons, your own monsters, etc.

 

Or, like Fantasy Hero, you can use published materials as is. There's really no difference, your choice is only easier for D20 because there's 2348197 books out there.

[Curufea]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

Still' date=' if I were to introduce gaming to people who've never tried it out, I'd use the old "red book" Basic D&D. It's simple enough for non-gamers to understand. Then we can move on to the more complex stuff once they get the hang of it.[/quote']

 

Nah - I prefer starting folks off with simpler things like Amber or FUDGE or one of the indie games. They have the huge advantage over D&D of "no tables" - you don't need to look stuff up. Great way to ease someone into to roleplaying.

[The Main Man]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

just like Hero has separate Grab maneuvers' date=' effects and means of escape, yes.[/i']

 

No, not even remotely like that. D20's grappling rules are unspeakably complex to the point no on I have even heard of has even used it. There's no comparison.

 

And Fantasy Hero works great, just like Champions and any other genre that hero has put out. If your complaint is "in order to make my own universe I have to build everything from scratch" that's true about D20 as well. If you don't want to use one of the prebuilt systems for D&D, you have to make your own spell system, your own spells, your own setting, your own dungeons, your own monsters, etc.

 

Or, like Fantasy Hero, you can use published materials as is. There's really no difference, your choice is only easier for D20 because there's 2348197 books out there.

 

It goes beyond grappling; I could swear that beyond running up to your opponent and striking them, nothing could be more unnecessarily complex in D20.

[CTaylor]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

I think D20 and D&D in general is built for power gamers. It's not in the initial rules but as they put out specialty books and prestige classes and so on, it gets ridiculous. The Psionics rules in AD&D started all of it, and now it's a tradition. You can be Bob the fighter and be basic, but Joe the prestige classed fighter with the special fighters handbook will be worth ten of you. And if Joe knows all of the rules well and can take advantage of each little nested and interactive feat and special maneuver, he'll be twenty of you.

[The Main Man]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

Now there's something that I have never read about: D&D's psionics.

 

How do they work in the first place?

[Susano]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

Now there's something that I have never read about: D&D's psionics.

 

How do they work in the first place?

 

Do you have Mind Bar? No? Let me see your character sheet.

[Curufea]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

I think the basics can be summed up with -

Psionics are trumps.

 

They are very rare, and no one has defences against them.

[atlascott]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

"Unless you grab a setting. If you make a unique setting with a unique magic system for D&D, you have to do the same. if you say, 'no, just use whats in the book'..I point you to the FH books."

 

Okay, but have you READ the FH settings? Incomplete, unbalanced, hastily cobbled together--in a word, pathetic, when you compare them to, say, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, etc. I was excited by the prospect of FH settings. I bought both FH settings. Read them, and realized they were utter non-starters.

 

D&D has a magic system in place, and all the mechanics for the entire game in place. I am not crazy about some of the mechanics, but there really is no comparing them.

 

It looks like FH hardcover isnt a new edition--just a reprint of the soft cover. WHY is that enticing?

 

I love HERO for supers. Hands down the best. For sword and sorcery, its a trainwreck.

[Susano]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

"Unless you grab a setting. If you make a unique setting with a unique magic system for D&D, you have to do the same. if you say, 'no, just use whats in the book'..I point you to the FH books."

 

Okay, but have you READ the FH settings? Incomplete, unbalanced, hastily cobbled together--in a word, pathetic, when you compare them to, say, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance, etc. I was excited by the prospect of FH settings. I bought both FH settings. Read them, and realized they were utter non-starters.

 

The problem is, Forgotten Realms was someone's game world. Dragonlance was built by a group of people (and wasn't it novels first?). With Hero, the decision is made to create a setting and then put it out as a book. There is no time to play it, iron out the kinks, and give it time to develop and establish a flavor for the setting. In addition, Turakian Age is meant to be D&D for Hero (it has all the tropes). I do think the Valdorian Age is a better setting, with a far more interesting set of mechanics behind it. However, the best setting would be Tuala Morn, which is unlike any D&D setting I know of and is also very unlike either TA or VA.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

just like Hero has separate Grab maneuvers' date=' effects and means of escape, yes.[/i']

 

No, not even remotely like that. D20's grappling rules are unspeakably complex to the point no on I have even heard of has even used it. There's no comparison.

 

Well, now you've "heard of someone". Roll a touch based AC check (Hero requires a roll to hit). Roll opposed grapple checks (Hero has opposed STR effect rolls). Doesn't seem that complex to me.

 

Or are you thinking of pre-3e editions?

[atlascott]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

"You're accepting all the lovely stuff that came in Unearthed Arcana as non-broken? "

 

Unearthed Arcana shoulda remained buried.

[Markdoc]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

Well, now you've "heard of someone". Roll a touch based AC check (Hero requires a roll to hit). Roll opposed grapple checks (Hero has opposed STR effect rolls). Doesn't seem that complex to me.

 

Or are you thinking of pre-3e editions?

 

Yes, I suspect he is. These days it's not that hard. The 1st/2nd ed. grappling rules however were not only needlessly complex, but severely broken as well. However I used them, both as a GM (only rarely) and as a player (frequently). My character Angror Ironfist got his name for his predilection for using the unarmed combat rules to take down humanoid foes far more powerful than he was: people he could never have beaten in a straight fight, he could KO - and then coup de grace

 

cheers, Mark

[CTaylor]

Re: D&D vs. FantasyHERO vs. Palladium

 

3rd edition is still really complex it's not a three step system by any means, I suspect you guys are missing a few rules.