Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

I don't like "Only with Extra Limbs" here. With 8 extra limbs' date=' this is just not really a disadvantage.[/quote']

 

Well, it is if you note that his torso and legs have no extra STR, so he can't lift weights using just the tentacle STR - his torso and legs give out from under him.

[Kdansky]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

A few Armor piercing attacks hurt anyone who abides by defense limits, meaning Defenses = DC*2. That's not really a problem. I also dislike the "cheap TK" he bought, and think grappling + transporting to shadowworld is extremly problematic. But what I'd do: I'd allow it and take a look at what he's doing with it. Build some anti-character to his (affects desolid attack, 60 str against being grappled, edm movement into same dimension or something, should be very easy) and if he abuses it, kill him off. Then explain to him that if he wants to play cheap, the GM always wins. Yeah, not nice, but if someone metagames this hard (assuming he did, his actions will prove it), he deserves it. Then find a new player

[archermoo]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

Well' date=' it is if you note that his torso and legs have no extra STR, so he can't lift weights using just the tentacle STR - his torso and legs give out from under him.[/quote']

 

Unless of course he uses some of the tentacles that aren't grabbing what he is lifting to support himself during the lift.

[gojira]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

Build some anti-character to his (affects desolid attack' date=' 60 str against being grappled, edm movement into same dimension or something, should be very easy) and if he abuses it, kill him off.[/quote']

 

I dislike anit-character builds but in a 450 point game Affects Desolid might reasonably show up. Also, if the character is a Lich King or evil mage or something, he might easily attract some vampire hunter type characters with special attacks, not only Affects Desolid but ways to block his EDM too. This might be totally in character for the campaign and a lot of fun too. (For the GM )

 

Unless of course he uses some of the tentacles that aren't grabbing what he is lifting to support himself during the lift.

 

His tentacles don't cross the intervening space, so based on SFX he may not need to support his on body while lifting or grabbing.

 

Are there rules for picking up and moving an unwilling character? I couldn't find them when I looked last night. It might depend how those rules work for his EDM. To hose that I'd probably say that his tentacles are part of his gestures, but the character probably isn't envisioning it that way.

 

Combating someone in the Shadow World or something isn't even the worst. He can take opponents out in a couple of phases just by dragging them there and leaving them there. They can't follow him if he returns to the normal world. SFX might help out here.

[Kdansky]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

Eh, you mistook me there. I also dislike anti-characters. I just wanted to get the "kill off the character if he's incredibly annoying"-message across

[gunbuster]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

I don't think he could drag someone unwillingly unless he buys the "usable as attack", or am I mistaken? As it's set up, it should only affect willing participants.

[gojira]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

He's got a 4x mass advantage on it. Anything he can pick up under that weight limit, including an NPC, should be brought with him when he crosses over himself.

 

I'd think UAA would be for forcing someone else to go against their will, while you stay where you are.

[gunbuster]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

Would that then imply that anytime someone has an increased mass on their teleport (not even talking EDM), they could take an npc for a ride after a grab? I suppose that makes sense, since one doesn't have to buy fly-usable-as-attack to pick up someone and drop them. My view is it could be abused, and should be watched carefully. On the other hand, it could allow for some interesting plot devices --- "remember when you went into the dimension? Well something followed you back out!"

 

He's got a 4x mass advantage on it. Anything he can pick up under that weight limit, including an NPC, should be brought with him when he crosses over himself.

 

I'd think UAA would be for forcing someone else to go against their will, while you stay where you are.

[archermoo]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

He's got a 4x mass advantage on it. Anything he can pick up under that weight limit, including an NPC, should be brought with him when he crosses over himself.

 

I'd think UAA would be for forcing someone else to go against their will, while you stay where you are.

 

Well, normally Extra Mass can only be used to bring people who are willing. It doesn't specify that under EDM, though it does so specify under Teleportation. So either that means that they are intended to work differently, or that Steve forgot to include the "Extra Mass must be willing" language in EDM. I think I'll ask.

[gojira]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

Actually a good point. I was assuming it worked like Flight, where you can pick people up and then (for example) drop them. I didn't look at teleport. EDM may very well work like TP.

 

However a "gate" with TP or EDM is still very easy to do. Anyone, even foes, can use your TP then. The total advantage is about 1.83, still very doable for a power that is cheap (in a superhero game) to begin with.

[gunbuster]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

Actually, having reviewed the rules and FAQs, I don't see any ruling that says that you must have UAA to grab and teleport someone unwillingly. The rules pertaining to UAA are the following:

 

1) If the character wants to Teleport others without going along himself, he must buy UAA

2) If the Teleporter is grabbed, he may only bring along the grabber if he has UAA

 

There is no mention of how it is to be treated if a teleporter grabs someone else. It seems that it could be used in the same way as Flight, Leaping or SS. Any why not? I don't see any reason why it is unbalanced vis-a-vis the other movement powers, which allow you to do similar things. I think only EDM jumps as the power that should require a stated exception because it would otherwise be way too easy to abuse.

 

[EDIT]

Oops, I noticed the small sentence under the "Increased Mass" heading. Involuntary Teleporting requires UAA. Please disregard the entirety of what I wrote :-).

[archermoo]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

Well' date=' normally Extra Mass can only be used to bring people who are willing. It doesn't specify that under EDM, though it does so specify under Teleportation. So either that means that they are intended to work differently, or that Steve forgot to include the "Extra Mass must be willing" language in EDM. I think I'll ask. [/quote']

 

As a note, I got an answer from Stever here. So EDM isn't an exception. If you want to EDM someone against their will, you need to buy Usable As Attack.

[gojira]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

OK, so at least make sure the players knows this. Based on my reading of 5er, drag your foes off to the Shadow Realm and leave 'em there was the first thing I thought of.

[Paragon]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

Well, honestly, even with Usable Against Others, its not like this isn't an overly good trick.

[Mad Fnorder]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

We all know stop sign powers. This is a stop sign player.

 

This is all complete conjecture, and I mean no affront or offense to the player, And if I'm wrong, I put forth nothing but the most vehement apologies. That being said, my READ is that he's the sort of person who takes pleasure in derailing plans. Going where the GM doesn't intend, not to further the plot but derail it- Like the previous "going for chinese food" example, only dragging everyone along and making up his own adventure- "Hey guys, let's go move the Terra Cotta warriors around backwards!". I also see them murdering BBEGs while they're giving their introductory speech, and reveling as the GM sputters as his tenth straight adventure was run off the rails in five minutes or less, or your pizza money back.

 

On the first build? I can completely imagine them talking to some shady but public figure, a mob boss or sinister corporate executive, and then going ahead and saying, "I invisibly head asplode him." and grinning like a jackal as they scoop up dice to fry your plot thread.

 

The second build seriously says to me that he's going to 'surprise grab people' since "They can't see the tentacles until it grabs them, since it doesn't cross the space in between- shouldn't they all be at half DCV?" , then try his EDM-and-drop maneuver, which thankfully we have a hole for. I'm guessing he'll define the other dimension as full of scary, flesh-rending beasties, but otherwise just like here, so he saves points on Life Support.

 

This is the CN "psycho killer" Barbarian, the Shadowrun character that needed a cortex bomb to prevent them from blowing the party up on a lark. Be very, very careful.

 

(Also, unless you have, say, The Catholic Church running around exorcising demons, or a bunch of prominent Divinely Powered superheroes, "Divine Power" is NOT Common enough SFX in my opinion. I had a character with a Shadow Form build effected by Light, Lasers, and Magic SFX. Just something else on the pile.)

[Silbeg]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

Well' date=' 50,000Km (5" at 10,000Km/inch). But he has to move at least one hex. [/quote']

And his accuracy would be suspect. Sure, he can teleport 1-5"... the problem is, where in that 10000km hex does he end up? I think that would be the real issue.

 

As far as I know, the only real way around the accuracy issue (caused by MegaScale), would be to have fixed or floating locations... in which you could land exactly where you wanted, as long as you had that location set.

 

So, while he could teleport the distance between New York and Moscow, unless someone has left an anchor of his cleverly placed in the Kremlin, it is more likely that he'd end up a long, long ways away from there.

 

Of course, if you wanted him to be able to T-Port anywhere on earth, accurately, you could always hand-wave the hex-size issue.

[archermoo]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

And his accuracy would be suspect. Sure, he can teleport 1-5"... the problem is, where in that 10000km hex does he end up? I think that would be the real issue.

 

As far as I know, the only real way around the accuracy issue (caused by MegaScale), would be to have fixed or floating locations... in which you could land exactly where you wanted, as long as you had that location set.

 

So, while he could teleport the distance between New York and Moscow, unless someone has left an anchor of his cleverly placed in the Kremlin, it is more likely that he'd end up a long, long ways away from there.

 

Of course, if you wanted him to be able to T-Port anywhere on earth, accurately, you could always hand-wave the hex-size issue.

 

The rules would seem to disagree with you. According to the Megascale description just because you set 1" = 1,000km doesn't mean you can't Teleport 4,136.278km (5ER p263, third paragraph of the Mega Movement section). This of course assumes that they have some way of perceiving their target area.

 

I don't think following the rules really counts as hand waving.

[garou]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

OK' date=' so at least make sure the players knows this. Based on my reading of 5er, drag your foes off to the Shadow Realm and leave 'em there was the first thing I thought of. [/quote']

Please do. Really. As a licensed Evil GM, I implore characters to do things like this.

 

PC uses Shadow EDM to move Johny Mugger to the Shadow Realm, then goes back to return the purse to Mrs. Victim. PC then returns to Shadow Realm, secure in the knowledge that Johny Mugger hasn't gone anywhere. Only. . . Mr. Mugger is gone. Vanished without a trace. Vanished, that is, until he returns from the Shadow Realm, wherein he was used for diabolical experimentation/bonded with a demon/drank heavily and learned martial arts and is out for vengeance.

[Silbeg]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

The rules would seem to disagree with you. According to the Megascale description just because you set 1" = 1,000km doesn't mean you can't Teleport 4,136.278km (5ER p263, third paragraph of the Mega Movement section). This of course assumes that they have some way of perceiving their target area.

 

I don't think following the rules really counts as hand waving.

 

Sure.... I guess.

 

However, the problem still remains a targeting issue. So, you can teleport 4136.278km, but given that the granularity of your targeting still remains a single hex (1"), and you specifically cannot scale that down to personal scale (5ER264-5) accuracy would still be a problem (in my opinion). This is especially true with the MegaScale senses, which would have the same issue.

 

I still think the rules are a bit fuzzy on this, and contradictory. Teleport seems to be the one type of movement that causes the most discussion, because you are not passing through the intervening area, so perception is more of a problem.

 

However, I would also be willing to say that if a target is using MegaRunning (even at the 1"=1km level), he might want to move 1.258km, but to actually stop on a dime might be a bit difficult.

 

However, I will say that if it works for you in your campaign, allow it. If it doesn't work, don't allow it.

 

That's why it is a stop sign, and that's why the GM is the final arbiter.

[archermoo]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

Sure.... I guess.

 

However, the problem still remains a targeting issue. So, you can teleport 4136.278km, but given that the granularity of your targeting still remains a single hex (1"), and you specifically cannot scale that down to personal scale (5ER264-5) accuracy would still be a problem (in my opinion). This is especially true with the MegaScale senses, which would have the same issue.

 

No, the minimum you can move is 1". However the rules specifically say that you don't have to move in even 1" increments. All the No Personal Scale means is that you can't use a Megascaled Movement Power to move less than 1". If you wish to add some inaccuracy to Megascaled Movement in your campaigns that is of course your perogative. But it isn't in the rules.

 

I still think the rules are a bit fuzzy on this, and contradictory. Teleport seems to be the one type of movement that causes the most discussion, because you are not passing through the intervening area, so perception is more of a problem.

 

However, I would also be willing to say that if a target is using MegaRunning (even at the 1"=1km level), he might want to move 1.258km, but to actually stop on a dime might be a bit difficult.

 

However, I will say that if it works for you in your campaign, allow it. If it doesn't work, don't allow it.

 

That's why it is a stop sign, and that's why the GM is the final arbiter.

 

The rules actually aren't a bit fuzzy on it. Megascaled Movement has a minimum distance you can cover. But it isn't inaccurate past that. The example in the book isn't that the character could try to Teleport 4,136.278 km, but that he would be inaccurate and would show up somewhere in that 1,000 km hex. It says that he can teleport 4,136.278 km if he wants. Of corse, if he can't percieve that far or doesn't have a fixed or floating location it is a blind teleport, and the rules for blind teleports apply. But that isn't due to any inherent inaccuracy in Megascaled Movement.

 

If you wish to make a house rule that imposes inaccuracy on Megascaled Movement I've got no problems with that. You just shouldn't talk about your house rules as if they were part of the rules as written.

[Vondy]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

Whether you choose to allow it or not, if your players ask "why?" remember to answer " 'Cause ."

[garou]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

However' date=' I would also be willing to say that if a target is using MegaRunning (even at the 1"=1km level), he might [i']want[/i] to move 1.258km, but to actually stop on a dime might be a bit difficult.

 

Suddenly I feel the need to build a power "Stop On A Dime" - scads of PD, only vs. Impact damage caused by sudden stop, Focus: Wall or other solid obstacle beside stopping point.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

The rules actually aren't a bit fuzzy on it. Megascaled Movement has a minimum distance you can cover. But it isn't inaccurate past that. The example in the book isn't that the character could try to Teleport 4' date='136.278 km, but that he would be inaccurate and would show up somewhere in that 1,000 km hex. It says that he can teleport 4,136.278 km if he wants. Of course, if he can't perceive that far or doesn't have a fixed or floating location it is a blind teleport, and the rules for blind teleports apply. But that isn't due to any inherent inaccuracy in Megascaled Movement.[/quote']

 

With a fully blind teleport, the teleporter has to make an attack roll vs DCV 3, with a -5 OCV penalty. Success means he teleports to where he intended. Every 1 the roll is missed by is a 1" error. And if the Teleport is Megascaled, so is the error...

 

I can find nothing that says the error isn't in 3 dimensions, meaning up (in the air, or space) and down (in the ground, or magma) are possible results.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

As a note' date=' I got an answer from Stever here. So EDM isn't an exception. If you want to EDM someone against their will, you need to buy Usable As Attack.

 

I have a question about this. Teleportation/ExtraDimensional Movement with UAA gives the ability to transport an unwilling person. But it doesn't answer (IMO) the question of whether or not the character has to go along with them.

 

The ability to *send* someone to the elemental plane of fire is more useful than the ability to *take* someone there. In the former, you don't have to expose yourself to the conditions at the end of the transit.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Does anyone have any idea why this is legal?

 

the circumference of the earth is only like 25k (rounded).

 

This raises another question I'd like to ask. For long distance Teleporters (like those who can "teleport anywhere on Earth"), do you make them buy enough Teleportation + Megascale to cover the Earth's Circumference or Diameter?