Would you allow this mental power?

[BNakagawa]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

Sensing emotions can be extremely helpful in combat, if you're familiar enough with it to be able to use it. You start a punch, sense your opponent feel confident about you not retaliating, and you know he hasn't noticed you're attacking. You sense your opponent is worried about using this maneuver, because it leaves him open to attacks on his left side. You sense your opponent is expecting kicks from you, so attacking with punches will catch him off guard. Etc.

 

It all depends on the detail with which you can sense emotions. General "he's hostile" or "she's happy" feelings won't help much, but detailed enough can be great help.

 

I think you're mistaking emotions for detailed thoughts.

 

An opponent might be feeling apprehensive about throwing a punch at you, but it might have nothing to do with the mechanics of the punch, you or him. He might be worried about impressing a girl over whom the two of you are fighting. He might be concerned about impressing his friends who might mock him if he does poorly.

 

And even if his apprehension is over him leaving him exposed to counterattack, how exactly does that help you to deal with it? Apprehension is an emotion. Apprehension about counterattack to the left side is not.

 

And some opponents (a highly trained buddhist monk for example) might have completely removed emotion from their fighting style. You'd be getting misleading or no information whatsoever.

 

Also, some opponents might be so out of sorts that you might not be able to get any advantage from reading their emotions. (The HULK, a PCP junkie, a berserker) Captain...I sense...hostility. Real useful, that.

 

It is my philosophy that emotions are fairly uniform across the bulk of humanity. It is also my philosophy that the influence of emotions on actions are not uniform, so drawing specific conclusions from a reading of emotions is going to lead you to inaccurate conclusions as often as not.

 

If you don't know your opponent, then I argue that being able to detect their emotional state is not going to give you much of an advantage in combat.

 

If you do know your opponent, then you might be able to predict their actions based on your experience.

 

The simplest build for the combat advantage portion of this power is this:

 

Analyze combat.

+3 levels to analyze combat, only against 'normal' or familiar combatants using common or familiar combat techniques.

 

Knowing someone's emotional state is useful, but if you've never seen their combat style before, what good is it going to do you? You may know he's angry and reckless, but that knowledge alone doesn't tell you what sort of attack he's going to throw if he's using a martial art you've never seen before. (or if he has an alien physiology you've never seen in action)

[SteveZilla]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

I think you're mistaking emotions for detailed thoughts.

...

 

Apprehension is an emotion. Apprehension about counterattack to the left side is not.

 

Or more precisely (IMO), it is more information than just an emotion. As soon as you add the word "about" (i.e., Feeling about ) into the mix, I belive it goes past what even detailed emotive analysis can give.

 

And some opponents (a highly trained buddhist monk for example) might have completely removed emotion from their fighting style. You'd be getting misleading or no information whatsoever.

 

Agreed, though this is simply part and parcel to the fact that it is empathic, and not related to the "information" problem above.

 

Also' date=' some opponents might be so out of sorts that you might not be able to get any advantage from reading their emotions. (The HULK, a PCP junkie, a berserker) Captain...I sense...hostility. Real useful, that.[/quote']

 

HULK SMASH PUNY TIN-PLATED DICTATOR WITH DELUSIONS OF GODHOOD!

 

 

Knowing someone's emotional state is useful' date=' but if you've never seen their combat style before, what good is it going to do you? You may know he's angry and reckless, but that knowledge alone doesn't tell you what sort of attack he's going to throw if he's using a martial art you've never seen before. (or if he has an alien physiology you've never seen in action)[/quote']

 

I agree. Look at D'Argo from Farscape. He may be really pissed at you, but unless you've seen (or previously heard about) his tongue attack, I think that the character would still be taken by surprise.

[Tonio]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

I understand your points regarding the detail of emotions. I still disagree, and believe emotions can be detailed enough to include the object of said emotion. But I don't disagree strongly enough to make an issue out of it. =)

 

In my game, you could. Were I to play in someone's game, where you couldn't, I simply wouldn't and wouldn't raise an issue about it.

 

I do agree regarding other points, though, like the monk's emotionless fighting style, or the crazed berserker's indecipherable morass of emotions.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

If any of you have Justice Inc, there is a really nice bit on Aura Reading, a special power, which you could probably readily adapt to something like this. Obviously it wasn't beilt as a spiffy modern enhanced sense, but the actual write up, attributing different aura colours to different emotional states/ststes of being is a joy.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

4d6 Telepathy vs. Human, Alien and Animal Classes Of Minds, Area of Effect (8” radius;

+1 ¼), 0 END Cost (+1/2)

 

That's 96 Active Points! A 19d6 Energy Blast!

By my math, it's only 65 Active Points, and with the limitations you put on it, it comes out to only 22 Real Points.

 

I greatly prefer the Telepathy version to the Detect version. It just doesn't sit right with me to allow enhanced senses that just go directly into a person's mind. It's way too useful an ability. I wouldn't allow Detect Lies or Detect Criminal, etc. If you want to look inside someone's mind, pay for Telepathy. (And as I pointed out above, it really isn't that expensive, at least not in this case.)

[SteveZilla]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

4d6 Telepathy vs. Human, Alien and Animal Classes Of Minds, Area of Effect (8” radius; +1 ¼), 0 END Cost (+1/2)

20+10+10=40 Base Points. 40 * 2.75 = 110 Active Points

 

or a 22d6 Energy Blast.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

4d6 Telepathy vs. Human, Alien and Animal Classes Of Minds, Area of Effect (8” radius; +1 ¼), 0 END Cost (+1/2)

20+10+10=40 Base Points. 40 * 2.75 = 110 Active Points

 

or a 22d6 Energy Blast.

Hmmm. I mis-remembered the additional classes of minds as being +1/4 Advantages, rather than +10 Adders.

 

How often to the classes of minds come into play? Can you just skip them? Then it would be 55 active points, 18 real, and 6" radius. Or you can add another radius doubling for 60 active, 20 real, and 12" radius. Not too shabby.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

Hmmm. I mis-remembered the additional classes of minds as being +1/4 Advantages, rather than +10 Adders.

 

How often to the classes of minds come into play? Can you just skip them? Then it would be 55 active points, 18 real, and 6" radius. Or you can add another radius doubling for 60 active, 20 real, and 12" radius. Not too shabby.

 

It really depends on the Setting, Phil. FREX, in my Flagship Campaign, Demons count as "Alien" class of minds, but I'm not making a big deal about it beyond that. Aelves, Gnomes, Dwarves, Humans are all "Humanoid" otherwise they power would get so expensive it'd be insane. And then of course, "animal" and "machine." And there are plenty of golems & constructs in a Fantasy setting, so it's a matter of what you wanna do.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

Yes, but is that the case for Vestnik's (the original poster) game?

 

It does seem a bit silly, at that low level of power (4d6 - 20 points), that the Adders to affect additional classes of minds cost as much as the base power. It seems those Adders (and probably all the others as well), are costed relative to a much greater number of dice in the base power, like 12d6, or at least 8d6.

 

But even with the current costs, it still comes to only 37 real points - a bit much, but not horrible.

[Utech]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

One more thought on all this:

 

I think we can all agree that the HERO toolkit is (in part) based on the notion that you should get what you pay for and pay for what you get.

 

For the "glass is half full" crowd:

If you're paying more for the Telepathy version, you should get more utility from it. If that additional utility is not obvious in the construction of the power* then it is up to the players and GM to ensure that it comes into play nevertheless.

 

For the "glass is half empty" crowd:

If you're paying less for the Enhance Sense version, you should get less utility from it. If that lesser utility is not obvious in the construction of the power then it is up to the players and GM to ensure that it comes into play nevertheless.

 

*I think the PER rolls are a large part of this, but that's just me.

[pinecone]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

I think you're mistaking emotions for detailed thoughts.

 

An opponent might be feeling apprehensive about throwing a punch at you, but it might have nothing to do with the mechanics of the punch, you or him. He might be worried about impressing a girl over whom the two of you are fighting. He might be concerned about impressing his friends who might mock him if he does poorly.

 

And even if his apprehension is over him leaving him exposed to counterattack, how exactly does that help you to deal with it? Apprehension is an emotion. Apprehension about counterattack to the left side is not.

 

And some opponents (a highly trained buddhist monk for example) might have completely removed emotion from their fighting style. You'd be getting misleading or no information whatsoever.

 

Also, some opponents might be so out of sorts that you might not be able to get any advantage from reading their emotions. (The HULK, a PCP junkie, a berserker) Captain...I sense...hostility. Real useful, that.

 

It is my philosophy that emotions are fairly uniform across the bulk of humanity. It is also my philosophy that the influence of emotions on actions are not uniform, so drawing specific conclusions from a reading of emotions is going to lead you to inaccurate conclusions as often as not.

 

If you don't know your opponent, then I argue that being able to detect their emotional state is not going to give you much of an advantage in combat.

 

If you do know your opponent, then you might be able to predict their actions based on your experience.

 

The simplest build for the combat advantage portion of this power is this:

 

Analyze combat.

+3 levels to analyze combat, only against 'normal' or familiar combatants using common or familiar combat techniques.

 

Knowing someone's emotional state is useful, but if you've never seen their combat style before, what good is it going to do you? You may know he's angry and reckless, but that knowledge alone doesn't tell you what sort of attack he's going to throw if he's using a martial art you've never seen before. (or if he has an alien physiology you've never seen in action)

 

I have to agree that emotions without context can be very misleading..."Muh ha aha! He's actually fearfull about hitting me!" "Um dude...the last three people he punched ...were killed by the impact" "Oh" "Ummm now I sense that I am fearfull"

[Vestnik]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

I thought additional classes of mind were +5 adders? PLUS TEN?!?!?

[SteveZilla]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

I had the thought of allowing a Mentalist-type character to "globally" purchase additional Classes of Minds, for 20 points each. Instead of buying it for each and every mental power.

 

Similar to how Floating & Fixed Teleportation Locations are bought outside of the power, and outside of all frameworks, but will work with all the Teleportation purchases the character has.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

I thought additional classes of mind were +5 adders? PLUS TEN?!?!?

 

Yah, +10. Why do you think I said "EFF THIS" and simply said "Humanoids" instead of HUM, ELF, HLF, DLF, GNM, DWF, ORC, OGR, and so on -- when you have literally dozens of active races, there's no way you could ever buy a mental effect to account for everyone. It's insanity. "Humanoids." Fixed that just fine.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

Things that I would think wouldn't fall under the "Humanoids" mental grouping umbrella:

 

1. Mind Flayers

2. Sentient Undead

3. Extra-Planar Humanoids

[Tonio]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

Things that I would think wouldn't fall under the "Humanoids" mental grouping umbrella:

 

1. Mind Flayers

2. Sentient Undead

3. Extra-Planar Humanoids

 

I would group mind flayers under humanoids (as I would orcs, bugbears, gnolls, etc.). Sure, they're powerful and ugly, but so's your mo-- I mean, so are other humanoids.

 

Undead should have their own class of minds (substituting the "Machine" class of minds for a Fantasy campaign, I'd say), and so should Outsiders (which would include Demons, Extra-Planar Humanoids, and other such creatures... this'd be the Alien class for Fantasy). I'd probably add a Plant class for Fantasy, for all those celluloid creatures.

[Vestnik]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

I would group mind flayers under humanoids (as I would orcs, bugbears, gnolls, etc.). Sure, they're powerful and ugly, but so's your mo-- I mean, so are other humanoids.

 

Undead should have their own class of minds (substituting the "Machine" class of minds for a Fantasy campaign, I'd say), and so should Outsiders (which would include Demons, Extra-Planar Humanoids, and other such creatures... this'd be the Alien class for Fantasy). I'd probably add a Plant class for Fantasy, for all those celluloid creatures.

 

Aren't Mind Flayers in the DnD-verse supposed to be from another dimension?

 

EDIT" I am soooo tempted to use a mind-flayer as my next character.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

Things that I would think wouldn't fall under the "Humanoids" mental grouping umbrella:

 

1. Mind Flayers

2. Sentient Undead

3. Extra-Planar Humanoids

 

1. Mind Flayers qualify as an "alien" class of minds

2. Sentient Undead are probably their own class; they are neither Humanoid nor Alien; more like a subset of machine. But you're correct, however, most spells affect "undead" very specifically, so it's a wash.

3. Extra-Planars are all jumbled into "Alien" for the moment (Demon, Angel, don't matter; they're an "alien" class of minds). Otherwise I'll have everyone having to buy for every Plane (Fire, Air, Erf, and so on). Another giant, unnecessarily expensive PIA.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

Aren't Mind Flayers in the DnD-verse supposed to be from another dimension?

 

EDIT" I am soooo tempted to use a mind-flayer as my next character.

 

It depends on the general history of the background; I believe that in some cases they are, and in others they're just super-sentient ear worms that eat your brain, get fat, then take over your body. Not a pleasant way to go. The good news is that I wasn't feeling overly evil when I drafted them for possible campaign use, so there's nothing left of the former host; they're dead & gone.

 

Thank the heavens. That's an existence so hellish I would only reserve it for people I really, really hated (and I've written some dark material, trust me).

[SteveZilla]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

It depends on the general history of the background; I believe that in some cases they are' date=' and in others they're just super-sentient ear worms that eat your brain, get fat, then take over your body. Not a pleasant way to go. The good news is that I wasn't feeling overly evil when I drafted them for possible campaign use, so there's [i']nothing[/i] left of the former host; they're dead & gone.

 

OMG, reading that comment about the ear worms gave me a flash. I now see a similarity between Ear Seekers, Mind Flayers, and The Wraith from Stargate: Atlantis.

[PhilFleischmann]

Re: Would you allow this mental power?

 

It depends on the setting - the nature of the world the GM sets up, as well as the genre. There is no rule about what species fit into which class of minds. In a fantasy game, you could have Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, Orges, etc., each be their own mind class if you want, or they can all be the same one. I wouldn't call anything in fantasy the "alien" class, bacause that isn't part of the fantasy genre. If you're locked into the deendee mindset, you can separate the classes by D&D's "monster types" if you want. Or call the classes what they would normally be called in the fantasy setting.

 

Likewise, in a sci-fi setting, you could have all sorts of mind class arrangements. Don't assume that all sci-fi settings are the same (or all fantasy settings). In some, Humans, Klingons, Vulcans, Romulans, Bejorans, Ferengi, Betazoids, and Andorrans are all part of the "Human" class, while energy beings, sentient space-clouds, microbrains, salt-suckers, and big-headed illusionists from Talos IV are the "Alien" class. But in other settings, each one might be its own class, or there might be some other arrangement.

 

Sentient undead (like vampires), in fantasy, might still be human-class; while non-sentient undead (like zombies) might be "machine"-class (but I would call them something else). Likewise "spirits" (angels, demons) from other "planes" could also be human-class.

 

It's up to the GM.

 

(In my games, there are no mind flayers. They only exist in deendee, and not in any other source material, AFAIK.)