Deep Medieval RPGing

[jimmyjimjam]

Thanks for the answer guys about my last question regarding the existence of a true "high renaissance" RPG (there isnt one, basically). My next question is about a "high medieval" RPG. Something like castles and crusades. Or Ars Magica but more historical, i guess. A game in which a Player might say "My PC is a Welsh knight, serving under the Duke of Glocester, in Henry the V's campaigns in France."

[Dr Divago]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

Thanks for the answer guys about my last question regarding the existence of a true "high renaissance" RPG (there isnt one' date=' basically). My next question is about a "high medieval" RPG. Something like castles and crusades. Or Ars Magica but more historical, i guess. A game in which a Player might say "My PC is a Welsh knight, serving under the Duke of Glocester, in Henry the V's campaigns in France."[/quote']there is an italian rpg called "I Cavalieri del Tempio" (Knights of the Temple, translated) where you are a templar, i mean a Knight of the Temple, survived after massacre by separating spiritual body and "reincarnate" into new physical one

 

it's semi-fantasy, because there are mystical and spiritual essence, some mental powers and (very cool) the game could be played in every time period because you can choose to reincarnate into early 1300 guy as well as into 1400, 1700, 1927 or 5000

btw it's "historical" because does'nt create an alternate setting nor a "what if" setting... it just suppose you are in our real world

 

interesting game but i don't know if is translated in english :\

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

First, there is too a High Ren game, it's Sorcerer's Crusade. Dagnabbit. Second, the one that I know of that most closely models "realistic" fantasy from that setting is Relics & Rituals: Excalibur, and of course, Steve's own Tuala Morn setting.

[Doc]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

There is A Game of Throne, based on the Song of Ice and Fire saga. It's medieval, but centered on politics and it does not copy/paste the real historical period.

[Vestnik]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

I think it would be pretty hard to find a group of people, outside university Medieval History departments, who have enough knowledge to do this kind of thing and keep it historically accurate.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

I think it would be pretty hard to find a group of people' date=' outside university Medieval History departments, who have enough knowledge to do this kind of thing and keep it historically accurate.[/quote']

 

As I've often said; I don't do it for historical accuracy, I do it for historical dramatic accuracy. As Mark has said on numerous occasions, no one in their right mind would ACTUALLY want to play in a "real" medieval setting.

 

"You're all peasants."

"How many points is that?"

"Um... 25 in disads."

"And...?"

"What? You're a peasant."

"Wait, I thought..."

"You said accurate! Well, maybe one percent of the population were nobility, so when you rolled 3d6 and I kept shrugging, it's because no one rolled a 3 or an 18. So you're peasants."

"What do peasants do?"

"Um... work, eat, sleep, get taxed, conscripted and then die horribly. SO, it's a bright new morning, by which I mean it's about 4:30 and dark out, and raining. You need to till crops to pay the sheriff, who's coming to collect taxes..."

 

Eff. That.

[Vestnik]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

The peasants can run off and be bandits. So there.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

The peasants can run off and be bandits. So there.

 

Good work! You've converted your simple, poorly built farm implements to weapons! You join a local bandit brigade, and begin stealing grains and fruits from the locals who weren't smart enough to become bandits, and start poaching on your Lord's land.

 

When he promptly dispatches a small group of conscripts with a Knight and they slaughter you and your families, and put your head on pikes as a reminder to others who would poach on the King's land!

 

Would you like to play again?

[Vestnik]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

I want to play the king.

[aylwin13]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

I want to play the king.

I think that that requires rolling a 3...

 

...three times in a row.

[Maur]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

Good work! You've converted your simple, poorly built farm implements to weapons! You join a local bandit brigade, and begin stealing grains and fruits from the locals who weren't smart enough to become bandits, and start poaching on your Lord's land.

 

When he promptly dispatches a small group of conscripts with a Knight and they slaughter you and your families, and put your head on pikes as a reminder to others who would poach on the King's land!

 

Would you like to play again?

 

 

Two Words: Robin Hood

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

Two Words: Robin Hood

 

I knew some smartass would bring this up. You aware that to be Robin of Loxley, you would need to have rolled a 3 or an 18, right? Brother was a landed noble, not a "peasant done well." And he was built on far more than 25 points in disads.

[Markdoc]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

We have actually played a couple of games like this. The first was using a rule set called "Dark Age" or something like that (it was back in the 80's - I forget) a so-called "realistic" game with no magic. We played thanes in the age of the saxon invasions, but it only went a few sessions.

 

We played a much longer campaign using the C&S rules where all the players were crusaders on the first crusade, fighting and intriguing our way through Lebanon to the capture of Jerusalem and then afterwards setting up little fiefs in Transjordan, dealing with hostile arab neighbors and barely less hostile crusader "allies". Frankly, I trusted the emir of Damascus more than most of my allies. He might have been an enemy, but at least he was honest. That was a truly, truly excellent game: the GM was a trained medieval historian and for a while, member of the MHS (professional medieval re-enactors in the UK). Alas, after a while the game ended, in part because we were too historical: the GM confided one night that as a christian, it distressed him that his "crusaders" were basically a bunch of bloodstained thugs who would lie, cheat and kill to enlarge their fiefs: all the more so because in real life that seemed to be what they actually did.

 

He ran another historical game for us later - and this time took his revenge - we were all franciscan monks in Spain, which rather cut down on the fighting On our wanderings, we came to a monastery that was plagued with murders and became involved in a Name of the Rose style murder mystery. That was also only a short game, going 3-4 sessions: Sir Ofeelya (also on these boards) was also in that game IIRC: playing a sicilian brother with a bad attitude

 

cheers, Mark

[Curufea]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

As I've often said; I don't do it for historical accuracy, I do it for historical dramatic accuracy. As Mark has said on numerous occasions, no one in their right mind would ACTUALLY want to play in a "real" medieval setting.

 

"You're all peasants."

"How many points is that?"

"Um... 25 in disads."

"And...?"

"What? You're a peasant."

"Wait, I thought..."

"You said accurate! Well, maybe one percent of the population were nobility, so when you rolled 3d6 and I kept shrugging, it's because no one rolled a 3 or an 18. So you're peasants."

"What do peasants do?"

"Um... work, eat, sleep, get taxed, conscripted and then die horribly. SO, it's a bright new morning, by which I mean it's about 4:30 and dark out, and raining. You need to till crops to pay the sheriff, who's coming to collect taxes..."

 

Eff. That.

 

Except of course, that's not true. Especially as I've been in a D20 game for 4+ years where we have mostly been peasants (well, half the party, two characters were minor nobles).

Strangely enough, you can roleplay anything. Being unable or unwilling to roleplay something is either just a matter of taste, or a lack of realisation of the full potentials. You may as well describe your president's job as work, eat, sleep, go to meetings and get voted out.

 

So yes, there are roleplayers, in their right mind, who roleplay in a real medieval setting. Because, oddly enough, real medieval settings are nothing like what you describe. Stop watching movies - try reading a history book. Heck, even the fictionalised novels of Cadfael would be a good start. There are no nobles.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

Except of course, that's not true. Especially as I've been in a D20 game for 4+ years where we have mostly been peasants (well, half the party, two characters were minor nobles).

Strangely enough, you can roleplay anything. Being unable or unwilling to roleplay something is either just a matter of taste, or a lack of realisation of the full potentials. You may as well describe your president's job as work, eat, sleep, go to meetings and get voted out.

 

So yes, there are roleplayers, in their right mind, who roleplay in a real medieval setting. Because, oddly enough, real medieval settings are nothing like what you describe.

 

I think I was going for comedy above all else, but in my own research and through discussions with various professors on the topic, there was very little "romance" to the time period; I'm not saying my example is the ONLY one, it's just one situation where one might find themselves. The reason I used that example was something one of my Soc. professors said aeons ago; "Okay, who wants to live in medieval times?" Knowing this game, I kept my hand down. Never raise your hand in a sociology class when there's an obvious set up.

 

"Okay, anyone here of noble blood?" Blank stares.

"Great. You're all peasants. Your life sucks." Hence, my example.

[Curufea]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

Sorry, I'm just sick to death of this whole stupid idea of peasants being downtrodden masses too depressed to rebel, and kings being parasitic inbred useless inheritors of power.

 

It almost annoys as much as the idea that the French aren't good at war. For some reason their contribution to the war of independence in the USA is always forgotten.

 

 

Romance happens on a personal level. Not on an epic level - unless the plot goes that way. As players of peasants, you shouldn't expect to change the governments of countries - but you should expect to change the master of the guild, or the sheriff of the shire.

 

You may not rescue princesses from bandit kings - but you might rescue the daughters of wealthy farmers from kidnappers from the next village.

 

You may not lead armies, but you might lead rescue parties hunting for lost children, or mobs of concerned villagers anxious to capture a violent criminal.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

Sorry, I'm just sick to death of this whole stupid idea of peasants being downtrodden masses too depressed to rebel, and kings being parasitic inbred useless inheritors of power.

 

It almost annoys as much as the idea that the French aren't good at war. For some reason their contribution to the war of independence in the USA is always forgotten.

 

I apologize, it really wasn't meant that way at all; in the same I think that not much as changed. I'm a peasant! I rely on my job to give me money to let me do other things, to provide medical insurance in the event I get ill, and so on. I don't think RPing a mortgage banker would be overly compelling, any more than I think that RPing a Peasant would be overly compelling. I've already done it in a different context, and certainly I could write it into something worth playing, but it wouldn't real interesting for me until I twist it.

 

But no offense taken whatsoever.

 

And to take your edit into account: agreed, and that's what I was alluding to, oddly, in the end of the post (as you wake up, you know the tax man is coming...) and that sets up a dramatic conflict. Seriously. I just don't know that I would particularly enjoy writing it or playing it, but my Ravenloft campaign very much centered on the idea of very real people in very real situations in what was a very unreal, terrifying place.

[Doc]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

i n the same I think that not much as changed. I'm a peasant! I rely on my job to give me money to let me do other things' date=' to provide medical insurance in the event I get ill, and so on. [/quote']

 

 

You said it, man; nothing has changed. Rulers of the world still eat what you produce.

[Markdoc]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

I'm a peasant! I rely on my job to give me money to let me do other things' date=' to provide medical insurance in the event I get ill, and so on.[/quote']

 

WEll technically speaking, that makes you a burgher: and all things considered a relatively well off one.

 

Curufea is right that the "down-trodden,miserable peasant" is a perhaps overworn trope, but make no mistake: being a peasant was a fairly miserable experience. They were pretty close to the bottom of the social heap, and they knew it. Their chances of bettering their lot were tiny and they knew that too. Other people lived high on the hog, and they knew that and resented it. When the weather was bad, they starved. When the weather was good, they had to deal with rapacious reeves. Even when things were good, their work was hard, and if they didn't work they starved. If hard, repetitive work damaged their bodies, well, you can cry as you work, but do it anyway: a peasant's lot is to work hard until death. If there was a war, the rich people almost always got protection - and they often didn't. Worse, they could be pressed into service, whether they wanted it or not. Much of the world was unknown to them - and therefore scary.

 

How do I know all this with such certainty? Because peasants still exist, and I've spent time with them. All of the descriptions I've given above I draw from my own real life experience - but they match what little we actually know about the life of the medieval peasant.

 

That doesn't mean that their lives were unrelived misery: I'm continually amazed (and often humbled) by how people can find joy amid the most appalling circumstances (to my eyes). There is, from time to time, beer and dancing and pretty girls (or lads) to tumble. There's family and friends. But nonetheless, pretty much every conversation I have had (admittedly through interpreters) with peasants turns inevitably to how hard their life is and how they wish they could be something, someone or somewhere else. I honestly doubt that's changed in 3000 years.

 

cheers, Mark

[assault]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

There are peasants and peasants too, of course.

 

Free peasants versus serfs.

Rich peasants (rich enough to own horses!) versus (virtually) landless poor peasants.

Peasants who own fishing boats versus ones living inland.

 

Depending on which peasant communities you are dealing with, and when the game is set, you could be playing Swiss pikemen, Cossacks, pirates or mountain bandits - not just some Robin Hood cliche.

 

One of my favourite medieval places: Dithmarschen.

[jimmyjimjam]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

Good work! You've converted your simple, poorly built farm implements to weapons! You join a local bandit brigade, and begin stealing grains and fruits from the locals who weren't smart enough to become bandits, and start poaching on your Lord's land.

 

When he promptly dispatches a small group of conscripts with a Knight and they slaughter you and your families, and put your head on pikes as a reminder to others who would poach on the King's land!

 

Would you like to play again?

The Middle Ages werent quite as simple as this. Occasionally, there were peasant revolts (sometimes even large-scale) that threatened the nobility and even the King himself (Wat Tyler etc.). Peasants participating in such campaigns undoubtedly led exciting (though admittedly often short) lives.

 

Of course, if you are running anything like a "real" Medieval campaign, why would you have the characters be in a boring situation in the first place? Because its realistic? In that case, in a modern campaign, most of the characters should be cubicle jockeys, whose daily challenges include a stubborn copy machine, and getting the kids to soccer practice on time..

[jimmyjimjam]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

Appears that the answer to my question so far is, "no".

And if quite accurate historical wargames exist, why cant an RPG?

[Curufea]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

There is for the Dark Ages - Harn. But not for the middle ages AFAIK.

[tkdguy]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

There's also the Pendragon rpg.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: Deep Medieval RPGing

 

The Middle Ages werent quite as simple as this. Occasionally, there were peasant revolts (sometimes even large-scale) that threatened the nobility and even the King himself (Wat Tyler etc.). Peasants participating in such campaigns undoubtedly led exciting (though admittedly often short) lives.

 

Of course, if you are running anything like a "real" Medieval campaign, why would you have the characters be in a boring situation in the first place? Because its realistic? In that case, in a modern campaign, most of the characters should be cubicle jockeys, whose daily challenges include a stubborn copy machine, and getting the kids to soccer practice on time..

 

Valid points, all of them; like I said, I was going for 'comedy' and it wasn't intended to be a critique, or even a reflection, of my views on how medieval life actually operated.