The book I want more then any other....

[Catseye]

The Ultimate Disadvantage

 

No, this isn't a single book sized disadvantage. Rather its a shopping list of sorts. Comign up with disadvantages is always one of the hardest thinsg for me, buit I also think theya re very important.

 

I would imagine this book would have things like interesting examples of typical (eg NSA)and unusual (eg Demons) hunteds complete with hunter write ups and background info. Examples of lost of different physical limitations, psych limitations, etc...

 

In general just put a few of the creative brains at HERo together putting together all sorts of examples disads with as much interesting variation as possible.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

Well, we have discussed this concept on the boards more than once. The response has been rather mixed, as you can see from this most recent thread on the subject: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=60352

 

Steve Long has already made his own view on such a book clear:

 

As I've said before, we have no particular plans for a book on Disadvantages, whether with an "Ultimate" title or otherwise, for several reasons:

 

1. Unlike most of our "Ultimates" and similar titles, it would have no real appeal outside HERO System players.

 

2. It would be phenomenally boring to write.

 

3. The vast majority of gamers have no interest in a book that tells them how to cripple, hinder, restrict, or complicate their characters. They prefer books of cool new powers and things their characters can do.

 

I suspect that most people who'd buy a Big Book o' Disadvantages have already given the subject enough thought that they don't really need the book that much.

 

 

Of course in lieu of a published book, we do have the excellent fan-created "Master List of Limitations": http://lostcoastgaming.com/files/masterlists.htm

[Catseye]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

Thanks for the pointer to the fanbook.

 

I gotta say I disagree with Steve on a number of levels.

 

(1) Is there really any market data that the existing Ultimate books ar bought by anybody other then HERO players? I look at an "Ultimate" and I see a resource for using/adding to/twisting the HERO rules. I can't imagine non HERO players buy them. If so, I'm at a loss to understand why. Settings books maybe, Ultimates? no.

 

(2) Well, Steve, thats the value to US now isn't it? yes its a pain, which is why we want your help. Besides, think of it as a challenge. How can YOU write a disad book that *isn't* boring? I have faith you can...

 

(3) I TOTALLY disagree there. HERO players *have* to take disads. Its a lot more fun for player and GM if there is more variety in them then if its just the same old hunted/berserk/DNPC crud.

 

People who actually play HERO for any length of time learn a fundamental truth of story telling... it may be the powers that make a Hero a Hero, but its their disadvantages that make them *people*. And thats what makes stories interesting-- that they are about people.

 

In short Steve, I think you do the Hero player community a great disservice here-- you make us sound like were all desperate ego-gratifying teenagers.

 

(4) Sure I've given the idea a lot of thought... and come up with very little. Which is why I want your help on the subject. Honestly, its the weakest part of the HERO rules even to this day and desperately needs some expansion and fresh insight.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

Catseye, as you can see on the thread I linked to, there are definitely people who feel strongly as you do on the subject; but there are also others who feel strongly the opposite, and some who straddle the fence. Even among those in favor of the idea, a few think it would be better as a smaller PDF than as a published book. And the poll itself was inconclusive, which probably says something.

 

The key issue isn't whether such a book would have objective merit, but if there's enough demand for it to convince Steve Long that it's worth his time and expense to create it. To date I haven't seen evidence that would convince me.

[Sean Waters]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

I've said before that i would not buy 'The Ultimate Disadvantage, and my position has not changed BUT, what I would certainly buy would be a re-treatment of disadvantages.

 

Whilst I appreciate they are there mainly for colour, interest and plot hooks rather than a strict balancing mechanism for character points, I really feel that, treated differently, and with more overall structure, disadvantages could be so much more.

 

If 'The Ultimate Disadvantage', based on a re-treatment came out in a 'magazine' type format (maybe half the size of most books and in the $10- range), possibly even as a downloadable .pdf to keep costs down, I'd certainly buy that and, I suspect, so would a lot of others.

 

By re-treatment I mean looking at overhauling the structure of disadvantages, thinking about what really makes them unique and what they do.

 

For example, we've recently discussed substantially modifying 'Accidental Change' to incorporate a lot more possibilities, and I think some of the other disadvantages could be expanded, combined or re-done entirely (I'm looking at YOU, Dependence).

 

I think there is gamerdollar to be made here, and, if the book was mainly looking at the PRINCIPLE of disadvantages rather than simply lists of possibilities (I'd want some lists, but example rather than comprehensive ones) I don't think it would be boring to write or read.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

Yeah, call them complications or something that gives more of a feel for what they are about.

 

Disads are a boon to the roleplaying side of the game but get relegated to an arithmetical burden of an exercise - often at the end of character creation.

 

I have become so blase about insisting on a full complement of disads.

 

My friend is designing his own system for superheroes and we have been playtesting and developiing it with him. We had interesting thoughts on how to develop a 'spotlight' mechanic where one or two of the heroes in the group find themselves in the spotlight and, in that position, are significantly better at certain things but also find themselves the focus for unwelcome attention - no more rolling a dice to see who the bad guys hit - obviously they aim at the guy in the spotlight....

 

I think that there must be a role for disads in this kind of thing as well....

 

 

Doc

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

Which is what I already said. I don't really need a book that focuses on "making characters suck." And frankly, anything focusing on disadvantages should have already been rolled into the most recent character book. But certainly, unless you're looking at a total retool of the disad system, the Master List of Limitations is sufficient.

 

Srsly.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

Which is what I already said. I don't really need a book that focuses on "making characters suck."

 

I think it's this view of disadvantages that indicates why such a book would be valuable. Too many players and GM's look to Disad's as being solely means of bringing the character down, rather than plot hooks, character development and ways of adding more interest, excitement and depth to the game.

 

I think a UD book could incorporate:

 

- GM use of disadvantages - Hunted doesn't mean "roll the dice, if they succeed, the Hunted shows up and attacks"; DNPC's have purposes beyond being a hostage for the villains; Vulnerability doesn't mean "HA HA now you get one punched".

 

- using disadvantages differently - such as Sean's point on accidental change

 

- creative uses of disadvantages - the rotating DNPC; vulnerabilities to things other than straight combat damage; susceptibilities with recovery conditions other than the usual PS 12 and resting

 

- evolution of disadvantages - how to swap out that DNPC when the relation has run its course in favour of a new disadvantage created in game (eg. a new Hunted)

 

The Ultimate books aren't just collections of writeups. Why would anyone expect different from an Ultimate book on disadvantages? I think Hero has missed the mark to some extent by not including disadvantages in books with sample writeups. USPD should have some Super disad's, not just powers and limitations, ideally disad's which have a link to a specific power or power type. UEP should suggest disad's specific to EP's and/or linked to specific SFX. But instead, we exclude them, and in so doing allow the stereotype that disad's are just a way to screw over the character and the player.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

I think it's this view of disadvantages that indicates why such a book would be valuable. Too many players and GM's look to Disad's as being solely means of bringing the character down' date=' rather than plot hooks, character development and ways of adding more interest, excitement and depth to the game.[/quote']

 

Sorry. On re-reading the post, I realize the critical error I made. There's two sentences in my head that didn't make it into the post. The reference "Which is what I said" isn't properly cited. The reason I mentioned the Character Creation text is because I agree with this. If it were properly expanded and retooled, it could be really interesting.

 

However, as interesting as it might be, I'd still be unlikely to purchase it. Not to say I wouldn't if it came out to rave reviews, but it would have to be a 5/5 on the scale to perk my interest.

[Shaft]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

I don't know if you've seen this site, Thia, but it's got enough content on disads to make a full sourcebook.

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20060517071957/www.globalguardians.com/masterlists/masterlistindex.php

 

EDIT: Sorry, that should have been addressed to Catseye. My bad.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

I don't know if you've seen this site, Thia, but it's got enough content on disads to make a full sourcebook.

 

http://web.archive.org/web/20060517071957/www.globalguardians.com/masterlists/masterlistindex.php

 

...unless you're looking at a total retool of the disad system' date=' the Master List of Limitations is sufficient.[/quote']

 

Oh, I know. And I suppose that's why I referred back to it; the resource that most people would need (reasonably) is already done and it's up and available for free. That's huge. It also obviates both the need for, and the utility of any text of "just disads" unless you do, in fact, retool the entire system. In that sense, I agree with Hugh. Yes, certainly, you can do an entire book on retooling characters and really expanding the disad system into something far deeper than it is now. I'm not challenging that.

 

I'm not even (really) saying that the book wouldn't have value. I'm saying that I probably still wouldn't buy it. It would really have to turn the system on its head, and the way the system is designed, I don't see that book happening. I think that calling Steve out (no offense directly intended, but...) and saying "Well Steve, YOU should make it interesting!" is kind of naive. That's like turning to me and saying "Okay Thia, what I really want you to write is a Wild West game and make it interesting!" It's impossible. I can't write in the classical Wild West style. I'd drive myself totally insane long before I was past chapter 3 of 20. I know this, because I just did it. In some cases you just can't write a book. It's not there.

 

Now do I think that if they had the funds they might do well to farm out a text and have it sold as a PDF? YES. But as a hardcopy? I stand by my original estimation of "Meh." Oddly, I'm completely with Steve on this.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

My .02...

 

Big Book Of Disads = Boring to read, boring to write, and not particularly useful (since the values of almost all Disads vary based on frequency of occurrence, commonality, etc., and those elements are not constant from campaign to campaign).

 

Book About Creating Interesting and Compelling Character Backgrounds and Personalities, and How To Translate Those Into the Game = Definitely a worthwhile buy, IMO, and would automatically include a lot of info related to Disads, without focusing on Disads per se.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

I think it's this view of disadvantages that indicates why such a book would be valuable. Too many players and GM's look to Disad's as being solely means of bringing the character down, rather than plot hooks, character development and ways of adding more interest, excitement and depth to the game.

 

I think a UD book could incorporate:

 

- GM use of disadvantages - Hunted doesn't mean "roll the dice, if they succeed, the Hunted shows up and attacks"; DNPC's have purposes beyond being a hostage for the villains; Vulnerability doesn't mean "HA HA now you get one punched".

 

- using disadvantages differently - such as Sean's point on accidental change

 

- creative uses of disadvantages - the rotating DNPC; vulnerabilities to things other than straight combat damage; susceptibilities with recovery conditions other than the usual PS 12 and resting

 

- evolution of disadvantages - how to swap out that DNPC when the relation has run its course in favour of a new disadvantage created in game (eg. a new Hunted)

 

The Ultimate books aren't just collections of writeups. Why would anyone expect different from an Ultimate book on disadvantages? I think Hero has missed the mark to some extent by not including disadvantages in books with sample writeups. USPD should have some Super disad's, not just powers and limitations, ideally disad's which have a link to a specific power or power type. UEP should suggest disad's specific to EP's and/or linked to specific SFX. But instead, we exclude them, and in so doing allow the stereotype that disad's are just a way to screw over the character and the player.

 

I absolutely agree here (yes, allowing for thia's clarification).

 

A good example on DNPC: I've recently tried catching up, at least somewhat, on recent developments in comics by going through some of the issues collected in graphic novel format at my local public library. I have to say that Brian Michael Bendis' treatment of May Parker in the Ultimate Spider-Man series is a dead-on way to handle a DNPC. She's not often in the line of fire, though SHIELD took her into protective custody at one point, but she does complicate things in a way that DNPCs should. And now that I think on it, that series also shows good examples of how to run Secret Identity, Unluck, Watched (by SHIELD), another DNPC (Mary Jane), and various other Disadvantages. (I wonder if Bendis has ever played Champions?)

 

The idea of TUD is not for a laundry list of possible Disadvantages, nor for a sourcebook for making characters weaker. It's a way of making them, and their lives, more interesting (even if only in the sense of "May you live in interesting times").

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

My .02...

 

Big Book Of Disads = Boring to read, boring to write, and not particularly useful (since the values of almost all Disads vary based on frequency of occurrence, commonality, etc., and those elements are not constant from campaign to campaign).

 

Book About Creating Interesting and Compelling Character Backgrounds and Personalities, and How To Translate Those Into the Game = Definitely a worthwhile buy, IMO, and would automatically include a lot of info related to Disads, without focusing on Disads per se.

 

RIGHT, which is precisely what I'm saying. The problem is that book was written, and that boat was, in fact, as both Bob & Hugh have pointed out, missed. All of this should have been part & parcel of the Character Creation text.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

RIGHT' date=' which is precisely what I'm saying. The problem is that book was written, and that boat was, in fact, as both Bob & Hugh have pointed out, missed. All of this should have been part & parcel of the Character Creation text.[/quote']Weeelll.... maybe. The Character Creation Handbook was a collection of Character Creation Rules. This would be more like character creation theory or advice. A lot of it wouldn't even be HERO System specific. In fact, most of it wouldn't be HERO System specific.

 

It's hard to make a good analogy on the players' side, because (AFAIK) a book like this hasn't really been written within the gaming industry. But this book would relate to the Character Creation part of the rules, as books like Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering or Gamemastering Secrets relate to the "nuts and bolts of running the game" parts of the rules.

 

Not so much focused on the how of characters, but more on the who, what, when, and (most importantly) why of characters.

 

Am I making any sense at all? I'm not sure I'm making any sense to anyone but myself.

[Thia Halmades]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

Am I making any sense at all? I'm not sure I'm making any sense to anyone but myself.

 

You are, yes, but I can't validate you (i.e., really say back what you're saying) because I'm getting it on a primal level. I can't really say "Yeah, I get that" because it's totally outside of what I think of when I think "game book." There may be great value in it; but I don't know that I'd see it as anything other than "a book telling you how to design interesting characters" which isn't really a problem I've ever had. So now, at this point, I could very well be missing everything everyone else is saying.

[archermoo]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

Weeelll.... maybe. The Character Creation Handbook was a collection of Character Creation Rules. This would be more like character creation theory or advice. A lot of it wouldn't even be HERO System specific. In fact' date=' [b']most[/b] of it wouldn't be HERO System specific.

 

It's hard to make a good analogy on the players' side, because (AFAIK) a book like this hasn't really been written within the gaming industry. But this book would relate to the Character Creation part of the rules, as books like Robin's Laws of Good Gamemastering or Gamemastering Secrets relate to the "nuts and bolts of running the game" parts of the rules.

 

Not so much focused on the how of characters, but more on the who, what, when, and (most importantly) why of characters.

 

Am I making any sense at all? I'm not sure I'm making any sense to anyone but myself.

 

*raises hand*

 

Of course, that doesn't do anything to convince people (at least the ones that haven't met us both) that we are different people.

 

I would buy The Ultimate Disad if Hero decided to publish it. But then again I buy everything they publish. I'd be excited for them to publish The Ultimate Character Background.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

My .02...

 

Big Book Of Disads = Boring to read, boring to write, and not particularly useful (since the values of almost all Disads vary based on frequency of occurrence, commonality, etc., and those elements are not constant from campaign to campaign).

 

Book About Creating Interesting and Compelling Character Backgrounds and Personalities, and How To Translate Those Into the Game = Definitely a worthwhile buy, IMO, and would automatically include a lot of info related to Disads, without focusing on Disads per se.

 

It should also include information on how GMs can integrate these things into Game Plots, especially working to include multiple character's into one plot who may not appear to have related Disadvantages.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

RIGHT' date=' which is precisely what I'm saying. The problem is that book was written, and that boat was, in fact, as both Bob & Hugh have pointed out, missed. All of this should have been part & parcel of the Character Creation text.[/quote']Well, maybe. One could make a similar argument about The Ultimate Skill, and I doubt that space was the only reason that didn't happen.

...a book like this hasn't really been written within the gaming industry.

This is probably the most compelling reason to have a book like this. Unfortunately it's also the strongest reason that those of us who want it are having a hard time convincing everyone else (most particularly Steve) that it'd be worth doing.

[archermoo]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

You are' date=' yes, but I can't validate you (i.e., really say back what you're saying) because I'm getting it on a primal level. I can't really say "Yeah, I get that" because it's totally outside of what I think of when I think "game book." There may be great value in it; but I don't know that I'd see it as anything other than "a book telling you how to design interesting characters" which isn't really a problem I've ever had. So now, at this point, I could very well be missing everything everyone [i']else[/i] is saying.

 

Oh, I don't really need help creating interesting characters either. But I'd still be interested in a book written by Steve and the Hero crew on the topic, because I value their ideas on the subject. And because I think it would help get more players into the roleplay vs rollplay mindset.

[archermoo]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

This is probably the most compelling reason to have a book like this. Unfortunately it's also the strongest reason that those of us who want it are having a hard time convincing everyone else (most particularly Steve) that it'd be worth doing.

 

Well, except that previously people were just trying to convince him that a Ultimate Disad book would be a good idea. Derek's idea is a very different animal from that.

[ghost-angel]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

Derek's idea is very much NOT an Ultimate Disad Book (a book I would find utterly useless and would either grumble about paying money for it or beg a Review Copy of off Darren).

 

Derek's idea is a book I could see being good for the hobby as a whole.

[John Desmarais]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

The Ultimate Disadvantage...

 

Is there some particular reason why a fan managed project like this http://lostcoastgaming.com/files/masterlists.htm can't fill this need?

 

I'm kind of in agreement with Steve L on this one. It's be a boring book for him to write and I don't think that many Hero customers would really be that interested in it for what it would cost.

 

But as free fan generated content, it's pretty cool.

[rjcurrie]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

Well' date=' except that previously people were just trying to convince him that a Ultimate Disad book would be a good idea. Derek's idea is a very different animal from that.[/quote']

 

I'd agree and I'd love to see a book like what Derek has described as well.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: The book I want more then any other....

 

Well' date=' except that previously people were just trying to convince him that a Ultimate Disad book would be a good idea. Derek's idea is a very different animal from that.[/quote']

 

Derek's idea is very much NOT an Ultimate Disad Book (a book I would find utterly useless and would either grumble about paying money for it or beg a Review Copy of off Darren).

 

Derek's idea is a book I could see being good for the hobby as a whole.

 

I'm sorry... maybe Derek's description here was just too sparse or something, but I'm not seeing a distinction. Maybe someone could explain it so I can see the difference. (Keeping in mind that a "Big Book of Disadvantages" is absolutely not what TUD would, or at any rate should, be.)