Why are martial arts so expensive?

[Dauntless]

I think a decent modeling of a real world black belt would take around about 30 character points to achieve, but this seems rather high. Since the Hero System grades on the basis of how much a power or effect helps a character, it seems like this is extremely costly compared to other powers. For example, for 30points, you can buy a 2d6 HKA which boosted by strength will more than likely by 3d6 or more. Most martial arts moves don't increase DC by more than 4 (most only +2DC with some OCV or DCV bonuses), so it only minimally increases damage, and the net OCV/DCV bonuses penalties usually cancel each other out.

 

You can get some neat moves which allow for NND attacks (choke holds or nerve strikes), and a martial artist can make his attack killing (pressure points or joint breaks) as well as offer increased DCV versus attacks, and allow for other combat techniques like disarming or superior grabbing. But 30points to simulate all the moves a typical black belt would know seems pretty high given the only small benefits provided by open-handed combat. Now, when a WF is added to the mix, I think it does become fairly effective, since you can add the martial bonuses to the weapon attack (paying 5pts to increase an attack by 4DC is pretty good). But bare-handed, I just don't think it's cost-balanced.

 

Also, even 30points can be somewhat limiting in terms of techniques that would be possessed by skilled practitioners. Most styles will have taught literally hundreds of techniques after a period of about 3 years...of those hundreds, scores will have enough differing characteristics to the move (in Hero terms) to make them unique enough to be made into new techniques. I know that UMA says that a technique like Fast Strike can be represented conceptually by two or more attacks (say a quick snap kick or a fast jab), but this still isn't comprehensive enough to allow for all the varied techniques a high level practitioner would know.

 

I was thinking of allowing Martial Arts moves moves to essentially be bought with some kind of bonus, maybe even halving the cost of the all the moves that are bought (so if you buy 30points of techniques, it'll actually only cost you 15). I definitely feel this is appropriate for Martial Art genres, and possibly appropriate for other heroic level campaigns. For Superheroes, it's iffy, but many martial powers and techniques can be simulated with powers themselves, so I'd be more leery of allowing the discount.

 

Does anyone else feel martial moves are too expensive?

[sbarron]

No, I don't think that MA are too expensive. But I also don't think of the manuevers the same way as you do, and I realize that has something to do with it. For me, Martial Strike could represent dozens of actual striking maneuvers for a very skilled martial artist, or it could just be the right cross from a decent street fighter. EIther way, in and of itself it only costs 4 points. 4 points for for +2d6 HA, and +2 DCV. That's not too shabby.

 

I would also disagree with you that your average black belt would have 30 points worth of manuervers. I would say the average black belt would have between 10 and 15 points of moves. There might be a few MA that would have 30 pts of MA moves, but not many. 30 Pts of Moves is definitely super hero MAist, and he can do a lot more with those 30 points than your average BB because of his Dex and Spd.

 

I don't know if either of us have the "intended official" idea behind MA points or not. I just thought I would share how I think of MA, and how different my view is than yours.

[Rene]

I feel that most Martial Arts maneuvers, taken *individually*, are too cheap for the beneficts they offer. If you deconstruct the maneuvers and try to build them with powers and CSLs, they'd cost a little more. And I don't think it's true that the CV bonuses "usually cancel each other out". The net benefict of most maneuvers as compared to non-skilled combatants is +2 OCV or +2 DCV.

 

Now, if there's something I agree with you is that the more points you invest in Martial Arts, the bigger the risk of buying redundant abilities, so in the end of the day maybe you're paying too much. Maybe.

 

Anyway, I'm not a martial artist in RL and I'm not overly worried about a hyper-realistic simulation of martial arts (or any other subject, for that matter), so I'm not the best person to comment about how many maneuvers you'd have to take to make a "realistic black belt". I'm happy with the system (or most of it) as it is.

[Blue]

I generally buy 4-5 manuvers in order to give the impression of martial arts and I rarely concern myself with adhering to a "style", since few of my players would know the difference (me included). So I'm typically looking at 18-20pts for the average character (NPC) I make for my campaign. I don't buy many abilities that overlap. For their money they wind up with a manuver that benefits their attack with better damage and OCV, an attack that helps their DCV, a defensive manuver, an NND or Killing ability, and a throw or disarm. That's pretty well rounded and gives a number of benefits for a mere 20pts.

 

It really is when you get into a character that needs to simulate dozens of abilities that you start seeing the overlap and the lack of benefit from redundant abilities.

[Killer Shrike]

I completely disagree. I think MAs are pretty close to perfect as is. Ive run Martial Artists up and down the points scale and Ive always been satisfied with thier cost to effectiveness ratio.

 

As an aside, I think a TRULY effective super MA should have around 50-75 points in manuevers and extra DC, but a heroic MA can be pretty impressive with between 10 and 25 points, depending on how prevalent Martial Arts are in the campaign.

 

Even if it takes 30 points in your estimation to make a real "Black Belt", thats still likely to be much better than simply buying a 2d6 HKA. More lethal no, better yes.

[Dauntless]

The thing is, I am a real martial artist in RL. I've had about 3 years of formal instruction in Shotokan, about a year in Aikido and a year in Choy Lay Fut. I also took a semester of epee/foil and a semester of sabre (hungarian style) fencing. I've also been studying and practicing on my own for nearly 22 years (I started when I was 9) and sparred with people from Greco Roman, Tai Chi, TKD, Wing Chun, Jiu-Jitsu, and Baguazhang. I even have a little bit of training in Escrima from some filipino friends who taught me (I'm part filipino myself).

 

So I can attest from experience that a black belt would have many many more choices available than 10-15 points. Even with the assumption that a technique as listed in FREd or UMA can be various techniques amongst different styles or even two or more different techniques from the same style, I can assure you that a good martial artists training for 3 or more years would have enough techniques of sufficient diversity that he'd have about 10 Hero System martial arts techniques if that few.

 

While it is true that for one manuever you do get a lot of benefits...the effects aren't cumulative. So one 5pt manuever might get you a +3DC and a +1 OCV, but that's it. The next 5pt manuever isn't going to add to that unlike other powers do. It can to a degree make a martial artist more versatile thanks to his ability to purchase killing or NND attacks as well as disarms or takedowns, but the ability to do so is at a very basic level for the most part.

 

In a heroic level campaign, a good martial artist with 15 STR, will probably at most do a 7d6 normal attack. Not bad...since he'll do on average 24.5 STUN and 7 BODY, enough to crack ribs of average joe blow off the street and stun him in one blow. But now let's put this character in a superheroic campaign and give him a more fitting 20 STR. Now he only does 8d6 with one of the stronger attacks...that's laughable. While you can argue that he can buy more Combat Skill Levels, or extra HTH attacks to power his attacks, he still has to pay 20-30 points for his martial style. It seems to me that the moves were balanced with the logic that the moves themselves were decently powerful enough per move, and that since they were cheap you could buy several of them to make your character's combat versatility improved. But I think that either A) they didn't make the moves powerful enough or they should have kept them with the same abilities, but cheapen them to make characters even more versatile. I also would have liked to see a return of the more than one exclusive element optional rules that were in the original Ninja Hero, since many moves can and do combine blocks and strikes, or throws and strikes into the same move.

 

I actually liked the optional martial art of buying CSL's to make a sort of VPP of martial capabilities. You might want to make a move very evasive giving great DCV bonuses, or you might want to concentrate a lot to increase your OCV> The advantage of that system is that you can create "moves" on the fly.

 

Another option I toyed with was to make characters be able to create manuevers on the fly much like the CSL option. The cost would be the highest maneuver x 4 with a built-in limitation....you had to buy a skill in your martial art style (if you don't already). For every move you made, you had to beat your Style skill roll, or the move would suffer a penalty point (at the GM's discretion) for each point you failed the roll. Also, the character gets his style skill/3 in "memorized techniques" and can pay 1pt to get additional memorized techniques (no matter how many points are in that manuever). So for example, if you had a karate skill of 12, and you rolled a 14 while attempting a 5pt. manuever, it would wind up being a 3pt maneuver. One point manuevers will always succeed. You would still have to roll to hit as usual by comparing OCV and DCV. This makes "black belts" have far more manuevers at their disposal. It also allows for the realistic notion that some martial artists are better "stylists" than others...meaning their techniques are more clean more often (how often have you seen reality fights with the sloppiest techniques you'd ever seen?).

[Lord Mhoram]

One of the the things I look at when trying to parse real world MA into Hero... combat applicability.

(For reference, studied Tae Kwon Do for 6 years, Aikido for a year, Kempo for a while, A little Wing Chung and a smattering of others).

 

Just because I can go into a studio and perform a perfect jump spinning outer crescent kick, doesn't mean I could use that manuever in a fight where things are much more chaotic, and focus is harder to achieve. While a 7th Dan's JSOC is a Sacrifice strike, mine is much slower and may likely be a haymaker. That it where the PS TKD and KS TKD comes in. I could teach every kick and punch up to black belt level, and in a studio setting I could demonstrate them; but in an actual combat situation, I wouldn't bother with the more advanced stuff, I'd be relying on my base 6 or so kicks and 6 or so hand strikes, in umpteen combinations.

 

I think in that respect Hero models it well. Buying the "Snap kick / Punch" from the Karate Package does not mean "I know how to snap kick", but rather, "I know how to snap kick effectively enough to use in combat". Characters that have other Karate manuevers can snap kick just fine, they just don't do it well enought to get game mechanical combat modifiers for it.

 

So if you include everyman manuevers and if you use optional manuevers, and three or so MA manuevers your black belt has a choice of quite a few options. Most of the many options in combat that a black belt has, is in HERO really just a lot of SFX. And you could use those special effects to give small bonuses and penalties.

[Blue Jogger]

In superhero games, it is usually more efficent power-wise to go with straight STR and DEX than several martial-arts maneuvers.

 

If I was building a Martial Artist, I would limit myself to basic moves (Martial Dodge, Throw, Defensive and Offensive Strike) and then go with 3 pt Levels with Martial Artist.

The best way is to use those levels and optional hit locations (if GM allows) to hit the head, vitals, or chest (high STUN areas). Or go with "+1/4 Autofire" and that way well placed shots do more damage.

 

Of course, that's just me.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by Dauntless

Even with the assumption that a technique as listed in FREd or UMA can be various techniques amongst different styles or even two or more different techniques from the same style,

 

Well Martial punch could convievably cover - Corkscrew, a knife hand, hammerfist, backfist, a reverse knife, a reverse hammerfist, a weak elbow, a palm strike, a finger jab, panther punch, oxjaw strike, or spearhand or even an openhand slap. One manuever 13 possible RL uses of it (and that is not including the kick side of that manuever). Just special effects.

[Lord Mhoram]

One little trick I used for superheroes.. and this is fairly illegal in fifth, and would require heavy GM approval.

 

Buy the martial manuevers that give you some nifty bits you can't do without them (throws for example, or Fmove manuevers), in a basic form.

Then you have a multipower with HAs, 5 pt levels in OCV and/or DCV, Killing attacks, NNDs and such. You mix and match the damage, and the levels to gain the mauevers that just grant bonuses, and apply them to everyman manuevers. This is much like the "levels" martial art, but more versitile. It works very well in a superheroic game. I've played and GMed with that construct (the biggest iffy thing being the 5 pt levels within a MP) and never had problems, but I've had good GMs and players.

[caris]

Interesting, my friends who are martial artists and into Hero (most hold Black Belts in multiple styles, and have been studying martial arts since I met them in the early ‘90s) all feel that the pricing structure for the Martial Maneuvers is just right. Of course, I couldn’t imagine any of them buying a black belt in a style without multiple Combat Skill Levels, and if appropriate for the campaign Damage Classes for the Martial Art. I would be hard pressed to specify how they would portion out the points exactly, but I doubt any of them would put 30pts in maneuvers and no skill levels or DCs. I believe their basic philosophy was to take the basic maneuvers to represent the individual practitioner’s general approach to the style, and the style’s distinctive flavor. They then use the skill levels to model the greater versatility of techniques that are developed over time.

 

I assume that you have already experimented around with various combinations of maneuvers and skill levels, and have found that structure less than satisfactory.

 

From a strictly cost standpoint, I’ve always considered a careful selection of the Martial Maneuvers to be some of the most effective spending of points possible. I try to avoid using them when inappropriate for the character, but given the rather broad definition of “martial art†in Hero System. It is not particularly difficult to find them fitting into most characters that are trained fighters.

[Killer Shrike]

No offense Dauntless, but it sounds like Pro From Dovering to me. Things can almost always be more complex aka "specific", but this isnt always appropriate in a games system that has a certain degree of abstracting involved.

 

As a parrallel example, the HERO System has 1 and only 1 skill to represent applied Computer Programming. In real life this is obviously ludicrous; you could break that down into several up to potentially dozens of discrete skills, rating each "language", each architecture seperately, and each design style seperately. The HERO System just abstracts it as a single skill, because within context its not that important. Same thing with a number of Science and Knowledge Skills.

 

Any expert on any subject can find fault with the way a game system handles that subject.

 

 

Also, as others have pointed out, their are options you arent considering here.

 

However, if you still feel as you have stated, and you want people to have more martial arts for thier points, just make some of the manuevers for a given style 0pt Everyman manuevers, and require a WF to cover them ("Barehand Basic Karate" 2 pts; "Barehand Basic TKD" 2 pts, or if you dont want to get that granular, "Basic Martial Manuevers {All the "Martial" Manuevers like Martial Strike, Martial Block, Martial Escape, etc}" 2 pts); anyone can attempt these manuevers, but suffer proficiency penalties, those who have paid thier 2 points can execute them normally w/o the proficiency penalty. All the other more exotic manuevers from the UMA must be bought normally.

[Arthur]

Part of the problem is that Martial Arts give huge damage bonusses. They were originally designed to give martial arts types competetiveness with superhero Bricks. They still model comic-book martial arts pretty well.

 

However, when you use them in a low-level Heroic game (let alone Normals), they become amazingly potent. For a super martial artist planning on tangling with Grond, +4d is necessary. For a realistic human black belt with STR 15 or so, +4d is almost ludicrous.

 

To really represent realistic martial arts, you should probably change a few rules and design all your maneuvers with 1-3 points. Almost no maneuver would have a bonus greater than +2d. Consider: +2d is equivalent to a punch from someone four times as strong! Martial arts training helps you hit harder, but that's already a LOT harder. +4d maps over to sixteen times as strong. Hard to imagine that in reality.

[Dauntless]

Well to be honest, sometimes I see people on this board here stick to the rules like glue and somehow consider any rules in print "inviolate" and if someone suggests otherwise, it's akin to insulting the Hero System.

 

The trouble is that the Hero System, being a generic universal system, does occasionally require some fine tuning and tweaking beyond the printed rules to represent what you want. For example, in a cyberpunk genre, I definitely would want to have more than just the basic computer programming skill, and have many levels of computer knowledge (software engineering, OO design, specific languages, analysis and design, logic, networking, specific API's, hardware knowledge for assembly languages, etc. etc.). That's the whole point of the Hero System, that there's enough information within the basic system for it to be tweaked as necessary to fit the genre and mood that you're trying to create. I have no misgivings whatsoever about tweaking rules and even breaking them when necessary to fit certain conceptions and genres. The Hero System is extremely flexible, and it's to its credit that it rarely needs "tweaking", but it sometimes does.

 

But I get the notion that sometimes when someone makes a suggestion of altering the rules to cover a specific need, it seems like a lot of "purists" come out and suggest there's nothing wrong with the rules as is, that there's a way within the rules to make it work. Well, looking at Fantasy Hero itself, look at all the added Talents and perks to simulate the fantasy genre. Even UMA added new moves and techniques. Star Hero also added to the core rules (or expanded upon) for the Hero System. So yes, it is possible to do some things as suggested, like using powers to represent certain martial attacks (I've done this on occasion), but sometimes it just doesn't quite fit the way you intended it to. I've always thought Hero was the Burger King of RPG's...I can have it my way.

 

Part of the reason I post is to get suggestions or other ideas I may not have thought about that fits the criteria I'd like. People have every right of course to say that I can make it fit within the framework of the rules as-is, just as I have every right to tweak the rules as I see fit. I would however like a range of ideas, including those that may have to "break" the rules. Since I like realistic combat and realistic modeling over dramatic modeling, I sometimes run into problems with the Hero System (there's a page or two in Fantasy hero detailing exactly some of the problems I've run into in the past with melee combat). Since I want to run a fantasy/martial art campaign, and I'd like it to be as realistic as possible, I felt like the current martial technique costs to be a bit prohibitive....at least for 150pt characters. For 200pt characters, it's not too bad, but 200 is almost overkill for regular men-at-arms type characters (but also reasonable for mages).

[Rene]

Dauntless, I'm not a "purist" and I apologize if it seemed that way to you and I gave offense.

 

Your post about a alternate way to simulate Martial Arts was interesting and I encourage you to tweak anything you feel like to, until you get what you want.

 

I don't see my position as that of a purist "defending" HERO from an infidel. It's just that (and admiting I'm being self-centered) from my perspective there is nothing broken in the way HERO treats Martial Arts. But that is MY perspective.

 

It's like you said yourself: you're very interested in realistic simulation, while I'm a "dramatic" gamer all the way. MA works well enough for me. Actually, if I had to, I'd side with the people that think MA in HERO is *too powerful* for "normal-level" games. But even that don't bother me too much. I don't see myself running or playing normal-level games. I like cinematic.

[Dauntless]

I'll try to explain my grievance in another way. Most martial artists will be spending 15-30pts on their techniques, PS, KS and WF skills. He'll also probably need to buy a few CSL's as well.

 

A man-at-arms kind of character can get a +4 CSL at the 5pt level for about 20 points, or +6 for 30 points. Plus, he can specialize with one weapon at the 2pt level, so maybe have a +4 with one weapon, and a +2 overall CSL for only 24pts. Overall, the men-at-arms can use his CSL in much the same way as the martial artist, and indeed have better DCV's than he can if he pumps all his CSL's into DCV. So let's say he spends 20-25pts on CSL's, 5 pts on WF, and just as many points into more CSL's as the martial artist. Overall, the man-at-arms will be more lethal with a select few manuevers (especially if he bought some CSL's at the 2pt or 3pt level) than the martial artist will (all the more so if the man-at-arms buys just one martial technique with a high +DC and links it with his WF).

 

The MAA however will not be quite as versatile...but analogize it like this: Would you rather have one Power with 80 active points, or 4 powers with 20 active points? Cost-wise, they are the same, so from a statistical standpoint, one could argue they are "balanced". But in the real world (or gameworld) this simply isn't so. A jack-of-all trades is nice, but remember, he's a master of none.

 

As for the argument that Hero System techniques can represent many different "special effects", a real martial artist literally knows hundreds if not thousands of variations on his techniques. Also, I don't know if having the techniques the character bought is representative of what he can use in combat. Most martial artists know hundreds of techniques but usually only use a few of them with regularity...but sometimes it's when they throw that technique you weren't expecting that you get hit. It may not be one of the prettier techniques in your arsenal, but sometimes that element of surprise is all you need (I remember one time trying to go in for a clinch, and the guy ducked under my armpit...I thought, "that's stupid, I can put him in a neck crank or choke hold now", but what he did was slip one of his arms around my waist, and he then hooked his foot under mine and he went into a roll, taking me with him). Neither of us had ever seen or learned any technique like that....he just made it up on the spot. And I'd done things like that before too.

 

So I think there's merit for having a "pool" of techniques which is somewhat limited by your skill at the style. I just haven't been able to figure out a good cost for that sort of style. I was thinking an alternative would be a cumulative sum of pts in technique x2, so if you want to learn 5pt techniques, it'll cost you (1x2)+(2x2)+(3x2)+(4x2)+(5x2) = 30pts. To learn 4pt techniques would only cost you 20 etc. It still costs about the same as most martial artists would pay anyways (well, a little more since you still have to buy the PS and KS and WF's), but you have a lot more flexibility with the moves you want to use.

[Dauntless]

Rene-

No offense was taken

 

Everyone has their right to post their own opinions (as long as they do so in a courteous manner) and no one who posted here was being rude at all.

 

It's just that I've noticed a certain....hmmm, searching for the word here....defensive reaction when anyone suggests changing the written rules to suit their needs. I have to admit, I used to be a purist, I felt that if I ran a campaign, I should be able to run my characters from any genre at any convention without the GM raising his eyebrows at any part.

 

But now I see that sometimes you have to fudge things once in a blue moon, especially to get more realistic results. So I think it's perfectly fine for GM's and players to be creative. Now if you start re-writing how skill rolls are made, and start tweaking the foundations of the game mechanics, I think there has to be a really good reason to do so. I've yet to encounter any situation that requires dramatic "rewriting" like that.

[sbarron]

Not that I want to get into an argument, Dauntless, but you did ask if anyone thought MA were too expensive. And you got the answer. Generally no, most people do not think MAs are too expensive.

 

But like you said, you are looking for a particular "feel," and you haven't had any luck creating it yourself. Well, I'm here to help, but I'm not really sure what you are looking for. Do you just want MAs to be cheaper? That is easily enough done with your already suggested "1/2 off" to the PCs. Or you could give each of the PCs one MA (20 pts worth) for free. Or maybe you could just reduce the cost of each maneuver by 1 pt. Or any other combo of price breaks you can think of. Can you be a little more specific of what you are hoping to find?

 

And just in case this helps, the below link is to a site that has a "cheaper" MA system for Hero. Many of the maneuvers are weaker, but now they only cost one point per maneuver, so you could certainly afford a lot more of them on 150 pts. I find this system really useful for low level Heroic games where +4d6 HA could get somebody killed.

 

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Tom_Carman/DOWNLOAD/cheap.htm

 

Hope this helps, or at least gives you some ideas.

[Alibear]

I would throw out the point minimum for building martial maneuvers. Steve threw them out for powers why not for MArts?

 

When running a "realistic", or low level campaign, or even when someone from a wilder campaign wants to learn a new maneuver, I let them spend as little points as they see fit on a maneuver.

 

You can soon rack up a goodly amount on maneuvers when you only spend 1-3 points on them.

[mr_nau]

Also as a RL practicer of ML (Jow Ga, Tien Shen Pai, Tai Chi, some Wing Chun, and Kendo) I find that the MA rules are in general pretty good for normal abilities, but find the more impressive abilities of a martial to be very costly, especially with weapons. What I typically do, and it has been suggested earlier on is buy your martial arts techniques as normal, but for "special maneuvers" buy them in a Multipower. Each technique is another slot. I usually limit them to 45 active points with the limitation of restrainable. For weapons techniques I usually require the OIF limitation or OAF limitation, OIF if it many weapons (a martial artist carrying a spear, sword, and chain whip), or OAF. This allows you to attach attacks to modifiers fairly cheaply. For example, a rapid attack on the opponents surrounding you with a weapon... 1D6+1 HKA (20) AOE Radius (+1) Selective (+1/4) 45 Active Points Restrainable (-1/4) OIF (-1/4) Can't Do More Damage than Actual Weapon (-1/4) 26 Real Points in a fixed slot it only costs 3 points. So that makes easy to fit your special techniques into a cheaper framework. Just my 1 yen.

 

mn

[Talon]

The problem with Martial Arts is that they start off amazingly efficient when you buy one or two maneuvers, and grow less efficient the more maneuvers you buy. For example, Fast Strike gives +2 OCV and +2d6 damage for a mere 4 points -- hard to get a better bargain anywhere. But if you add 12 more maneuvers, suddenly you're paying multiple times for those nifty CV and damage bonuses.

 

I had a house rule for buying Martial Arts where you only paid for maneuvers which "pushed the envelope". Effectively, you took the highest OCV bonus, DCV bonus, and damage bonus, added in each unique maneuver (Grab, target falls, etc.) and paid based on that. There were two main results: it was easy to get lots of maneuvers cheap; martial artists tended to stick to a style (lots of high OCV maneuvers, for example). However, it was a wee bit too complex and never made prime time.

 

If I was running a campaign with a real heavy focus on martial arts, I would certainly make rules tweaks to make them more friendly. Probably the easiest thing to do would be to allow characters to purchase powers as martial-arts stunts -- but only based on how many points they had invested in maneuvers. That would let accomplished martial artists gain an edge over non-practicers in a genre-appropriate manner.

[Dauntless]

sbarron-

When I asked if people thought MA were too expensive, I meant if they felt it was too expensive for their campaign. It's sort of the double edged sword of generic universal systems like Hero. The game mechanics which allow for extreme flexibility often cause certain weird things to happen in relation to other things. That's why many people don't like universal systems because of the "fudge" factor (the GM needing to create house rules or custom rules to fit the particular genre to get the right "feel").

 

In terms of how martial arts work, I think the Hero System has the best melee combat system of any game I've seen. I just have some issues with it in regards to running a more realistic setting as compared to real-world usage and capabilities of martial artists. After toying around with a few character concepts, it seemed to me that your typical man-at-arms character was a more efficient all around character than the martial artist. While the MA was more versatile in some respects, the MAA was more powerful with his chosen one or two weapons and had enough left over points to buy some other skills. That's why I came to the conclusion that MA were either too expensive, or not versatile enough for the points you had to spend.

 

I posted the topic wondering if anyone else had come across the same thing or not for their campaign. And if they had, what their solution was. I'm not asking Steve to consider changing the point costs to include them in the next edition of the Hero System (which is why I think some people get defensive...they think someone asking for help, suggestions, tips or comments about rules they find to not fit well are asking for official rules addendums....that's not what I'm looking for). So far I haven't found martial arts too expensive or limited for Superhero campaigns, just heroic ones...especially at the 150pt level or below.

[Dauntless]

Geoff Speare-

That's exactly what I've found out too. After spending about 15-20pts on techniques, it becomes extremely redundant. As I mentioned before, buying more techniques does not cumulatively make your character more effective (past a certain point). Buying 50pts of EB is exactly twice as effective as buying 25pts of EB. Buying 50pts of techniques isn't going to make you anywhere near as effective as buying 25pts of techniques.

 

While some can argue that there are human limits, and that after 25pts, the character should be buying CSL's instead, there's also the fact that buying 50pts of techniques may not make you more effectove but it will make you more versatile. The trouble is, you can't have your cake and eat it too....at least with a limited amount of points to spend. And in the real world, someone who practices a style for 5 years or more will be both very versatile and fairly powerful. Which is why I have the cost issue for heroic campaigns.

 

I'm not quite sure I understand your house rule though. So you paid for each technique according to their bonus? Or you figured what the maximum bonus, damage, etc was for every technique you wanted to know, added the totals and that was the cost for the whole "system"? If it's the latter, that makes sense, and I would use it in that way to allow characters to create "pools" of techniques rather than limit them to fixed techniques.

[Trebuchet]

Also remember that HERO "martial arts" covers a very wide range of possible styles. It can simulate everything from fictional martial arts like Sinanju to a caveman's skill with a club. There is obviously some real life equivalency between martial arts styles or one particular style would have been found to be superior to all others by now and every martial artist in the world would be practicing that one art. Instead there are hundreds if not thousands of styles, and expertise in one style makes you a match for virtually any practitioner of a different style at the same level of expertise.

 

My own super gymnast spent 44 points on martial maneuvers and +3 DC; she has a maximum attack of 10d6 not including Pushing. And you're right, it is rather ludicrous for a martial artist with an 8d6 attack to attack a brick with a 30 PD in Champions. In reality they would break their own hand when they hit Iron Man's armor or a main battle tank. But this is the comics, so the incredible can and does happen. So when she sweeps 4 agents on one phase they all fall down. Seems pretty effective to me.

 

I do agree with one earlier suggestion: eliminate minimim costs on custom maneuvers. If somebody wants a 1 or 2 point maneuver, let them have it.

 

BTW, have you seen The Ultimate Martial Artist? It greatly expands the martial arts rules for HERO. The basic 5th Edition rules are very generic. Perhaps that would address some of your concerns.

[Tom Carman]

Originally posted by Dauntless

So far I haven't found martial arts too expensive or limited for Superhero campaigns, just heroic ones...especially at the 150pt level or below.

There was once a Digital Hero article (old one, and not in the 1999-2001 archives) called "Cheap Martial Arts". It was for low-powered campaigns that didn't focus on martial arts. Each maneuver cost just one point, and was roughly half as powerful as the real thing: half the OCV/DCV bonus, half the extra damage, etc.