Why are martial arts so expensive?

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Tom Carman

There was once a Digital Hero article (old one, and not in the 1999-2001 archives) called "Cheap Martial Arts". It was for low-powered campaigns that didn't focus on martial arts. Each maneuver cost just one point, and was roughly half as powerful as the real thing: half the OCV/DCV bonus, half the extra damage, etc.

I think that was in one of the best of collections as well....or at least I saw it somewhere and it wasnt digital hero......maybe it was EZHero or Haymaker?

[Talon]

Originally posted by Dauntless

I'm not quite sure I understand your house rule though. So you paid for each technique according to their bonus? Or you figured what the maximum bonus, damage, etc was for every technique you wanted to know, added the totals and that was the cost for the whole "system"? If it's the latter, that makes sense, and I would use it in that way to allow characters to create "pools" of techniques rather than limit them to fixed techniques.

 

Here's my document describing the rule. Note that it's a draft which never saw playtest, so it definitely has some rough edges.

[sbarron]

Originally posted by Tom Carman

There was once a Digital Hero article (old one, and not in the 1999-2001 archives) called "Cheap Martial Arts". It was for low-powered campaigns that didn't focus on martial arts. Each maneuver cost just one point, and was roughly half as powerful as the real thing: half the OCV/DCV bonus, half the extra damage, etc.

See the link from above.

[Supreme]

Well, my thoughts on this subject are thus. I think that most martial artists would not have 30 points of maneuvers. Just because you can execute a maneuver in a class, or even when sparring, does not mean you are actually able to perform that maneuver in a real combat situation with full force. I myself studied Kung Fu for eight years, T'ai Chi for three, and learned a smattering of Hsing I, Arnis, Capoeira, Boxing, etc. Even at my prime I think I could only execute about five kicks reliably (i.e., I'd pay points for them as a HERO character), and that's not five maneuvers that's two or three maneuvers tops that overlap with several other maneuvers.

 

On the flip side, HERO characters may often pay too little for their CSLs. Reconstruct this. According to Adam West, when Bruce Lee was on the set shooting the Batman/Green Hornet crossover, one of Bruce's favorite things to do was kick people's cigarettes out of their mouths. Let's do some math.

 

If the person holding the cigarette in their mouth doesn't move, then for its size it'd have a 12 DCV. Give it another 2 DCV for the partial cover of the face (at least). Now let's say Bruce is aiming for a 16 or less, so as to be able to reliably perform this trick. That means Bruce'd need an OCV of 19!!! Bruce Lee's maximum DEX should be about 20. (People who would argue Lee as having a greater Dex have been watching "Enter the Dragon" too much. ) So with a natural OCV of 7, he needs another 12 OCV. He can take +4 just for preparing (though West never specified how much warning he gave people ) that leaves a +8. If his kick is designed as a Fast Strike, or a Basic Strike, that gives him a +2. So all told, Bruce was sporting about 6 CSLs with at least with one kick.

 

How's your 250 point Martial Artist with +2 CSLs look now?

[Killer Shrike]

Id build Bruce with a Dex of 23 (39pts) so that he is basically one of the quickest guys around even compared to other dextrous people, giving a base 8, and he definitely would have Fast Strike, no question, with maybe something like +4 OCV Fast Strike (8pts), +2 HtH (10pts), +2 Overall (20pts) so thats 77 points right there. Add in some other manuevers, skills, and stats, and of course 2 or 3 HtH Damage Classes for his Martial arts and maybe an extra inch or 2 of Leaping.....

 

 

CSLs rock

[Dauntless]

Bruce really was superhuman. He was known to be able to throw a 2" wood board in the air and break it with a side kick. Imagine trying to do that without anyone holding the board back as a counter resistance. Also, his reflexes were tested once by making him hit a button as soon as he saw a light flash. The button was a punch's distance away. He was able to hit the button in .03 seconds!!! If that's not a speed of 12, I don't know what is.

 

One time he was practice kicking with a good friend of his, Ted Wong. Well, Wong decided to chide Bruce about his kicks...saying something like a little girl could do better. Bruce said to the effect, "oh yeah?", and hit the 100lb bag with Ted holding it (he said he was about 150lbs) with one of his one step side kicks....and he knocked Ted more than 6' back giving him whiplash, and making the 100lb bag hit the ceiling and cracking it! He also reportedly cracked numberous Mook Jongs (the Wing Chun wooden dummy) and did things that really were of virtually superhuman nature.

 

And there's also stories about the capabilities of some of today's Shaolin monks (supposedly one nicknamed the "Flying Monk" can walk sideways along a wall ala Matrix-style for more than 15', and can even round corners because he's so fast). Also, in one study testing how powerful certain techniques were, one guy broke the lexan shield protecting the pressure sensor device...a lexan covering as thick as Police riot shields that can withstand well over 1000lbs per square inch (he did this with a spinning back kick and he also had to get past the padding).

 

As for comments about only having a few reliable techniques to use in a real fight, I think we as civilian martial artists are forgetting one thing.....we're not fighting for our lives on the line. While I only formally studied for a maximum of 3 years in one style, I'd say I could reliably (meaning about 90% of the time) do about maybe 5 kicks, and probably close to 10 different punches, elbow strikes and chops. Joint locks are another story, and I don't know if I'd ever be able to use them in a real fight (though in some play sparring, I was able to get them once in a blue moon). But if I had to use these skills to fight for my life on a day to day basis, I'm fairly positive that I'd become proficient much more quickly. Think about your job skills....you practice them several hours a day and in a way, your life depends on it (if you suck at your job, you lose your job and therefore your money). You tend to get good at it real quick if only because of the amount of time you spend on it.

 

Imagine for a second people like bouncers, police officers, and military personnel who have to rely on these things for their lives and may have to use them on a day to day basis. I'll bet a good chunk of them can reliably perform quite a few manuevers. Think about Bruce...the guy slept, breathed and ate kung fu. When driving to school, he had a little target practice board that he'd use to practice finger strikes when the light was red. We as civilian martial artists or non-professional martial artists spend probably at most 10-15 hours a week doing martial arts (class time + at home training)...and I bet probably a lot less for some. Now imagine if it was your "job" and you spent close to 6+hours a day plying your trade. Comparing what we know to what a dedicated martial artists would know isn't quite a fair comparison.

 

I also think the Hero rules make the system to "fixed". It was funny that I was browsing through Fantasy hero and I came across an alternate system of "spontaneous" magic. I feel that this is very similar to how martial arts could work. I don't know about the other practitioners here...but I bet when you've sparred you threw a technique that you'd never seen or been taught...but it worked. That's the sort of flavor I want to get across. Where your skill as a practitioner is the basis for how good you are at performing techniques. Okay, maybe my inner crescent kick isn't so great, but I can do it, and maybe it's what the situation calls for. Instead of having "fixed" techniques you are capable of (even if the techniques only represent game mechanics....i.e. a fast strike could be a snap kick or a quick jab) why not have a sort of Virtual Power Pool of techniques? Personally, I think it makes just as much sense....IF the character concept is that he's a dedicated martial artist with more than 4 years of training under his belt (I don't think beginning or intermediate level characters should have this ability since they are still learning alot of the techniques and the nuances of the techniques).

[Trebuchet]

I think you raise some good points. But you could accomplish much of what I think you're aiming for with a "non-martial arts" martial art. Buy a few HtH Skill levels and several HAs instead of Martial Maneuvers. This would allow a totally freeform/spontaneous "style" that reflects a natural ability to just wing it. Whatever a character with such awesome skill does is effective. Throw in a few actual Powers with "martial arts" special effects (such as Double Knockback on the HA and Killing Attack - HtH) and Presto! Instant imaginary martial art!

[zornwil]

Given the original issues/problem posed, I think Treb's right.

 

Personally, though, I think MA is too expensive for regular human guys who want a leg up and way too cheap for bricks who suddenly get all these non-genre-convention maneuvers for a few points.

 

That's why I apply Martial Arts as an advantage to STR, each +5 in Martial Arts is a +1/4 to STR. Note though that is for maneuvers, not for additional DCs or weapons (but you have to buy the STR up first).

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by zornwil

Personally, though, I think MA is too expensive for regular human guys who want a leg up and way too cheap for bricks who suddenly get all these non-genre-convention maneuvers for a few points.

 

That's why I apply Martial Arts as an advantage to STR, each +5 in Martial Arts is a +1/4 to STR. Note though that is for maneuvers, not for additional DCs or weapons (but you have to buy the STR up first).

 

Holy First Edition, Batman!

 

Originally, MA got you five maneuvers (IIRC, the current Martial Strike, Offensive Strike, Martial Dodge, Martial Grab and Martial Throw) for 1/2 your STR.

 

All damage was denominated in multiples of your usual STR damage, not +x DC (Haymaker was the last holdout to that convention...I find I don't miss it). Each additional 1/2 STR paid bought you +1/2 to the damage multiple.

 

So a 60 STR Brick who wants a Martial Dodge has to pay 15 points...I'm guessing he'll buy levels in DCV only when dodging instead. On the other had, a 5 STR looks pretty good if you want MA from Hell

[zornwil]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

Holy First Edition, Batman!

 

Originally, MA got you five maneuvers (IIRC, the current Martial Strike, Offensive Strike, Martial Dodge, Martial Grab and Martial Throw) for 1/2 your STR.

 

All damage was denominated in multiples of your usual STR damage, not +x DC (Haymaker was the last holdout to that convention...I find I don't miss it). Each additional 1/2 STR paid bought you +1/2 to the damage multiple.

 

So a 60 STR Brick who wants a Martial Dodge has to pay 15 points...I'm guessing he'll buy levels in DCV only when dodging instead. On the other had, a 5 STR looks pretty good if you want MA from Hell

 

Yeah, I remember this, my system is the other path of evolution (if you will) from the original. I liked it the original way and wasn't so interested in the new method, but liked the detail of maneuvers and variability the new method provided.

[acowie]

Martial Arts vs Stats

 

Yes, Martial Arts are more expensive than buying stats to achieve the same effect.

[i would be happy to demonstrate with even a well designed character like Nighthawk ends up better with more STR and DEX and no MA. With some ludicrous pointwasting pantywaist like Green Dragon it is even more obvious. To be fair, it's been done A LOT in the past.]

It comes down to concept. People like MA, and the idea that Joe Well Trained Normal can kick Grond in the nads. For this concept they pay extra points. It's worth it to them, it's a game after all.

Feel free to argue that it's not MA that's too expensive, it's stats that are too cheap (actually, don't, I promise to do a search and read all the posts in the past).

Again, as said earlier, very careful use of a very few MA can be a good way to save points, I am only talking about published characters, and those with more than 15 odd points of MA.

They're a bit like a multipower that you pay full price for each slot.

[Pattern Ghost]

I think that the problem is that the system isn't designed to model the genre as Dauntless sees it.

 

If you can't build a MA that fits your conception within the point limits of a Heroic game, simply raise the point limits.

 

You basically have two approaches to modelling a character's skills. You either go more abstract, or you go more generous and give any applicable skill. Most average people who have any adventuring skills don't have them at the full 3 point level. Most have them as familiarities and can take bonuses for routine and easy uses of the skill for everyday things. Under the pressure of adventuring, most people don't have 3 pt. skills. To put it another way: Sure, you can walk a tightrope, but can you do it under machine gun fire?

 

I agree with the people who think martial arts work the same way. Most people are going to have a certain number of maneuvers they can pull off every time under extreme pressure.

 

So, some real people exceed that. Does that make the system unrealistic? No, it doesn't. It means that those real people are built on different point totals than other real people. In the real world, we don't all have equal points (or pts at all). In a game, it's assumed that the PCs are exceptional individuals. You don't saddle them with realism. If you want your advanced martial artists to have 50 pts or so of maneuvers, you have options, and several have been suggested:

 

1. Give them all certain maneuvers for free.

2. Give them extra points, just for buying MA.

3. Give them extra points, period.

4. Allow them to buy powers to represent the more advanced techniques.

 

You don't have to run at 150 pts. If you run at 250 pts, it doesn't mean your characters aren't "normal," it just means you're running at the highest end of the "real" human spectrum. 150 doesn't allow for that in all cases. I can build the world's greatest accountant for zero or even negative points. I can't do the same for the world's greatest martial artists, and if I'm using the more generous method of assigning skills, I'd have a hard time squeezing in anyone who's simply high-ranking in their art for under 150.

 

That doesn't mean there's a problem with the cost of the martial arts. The problem is that you can't do some genres on 150 pts, which isn't much of a problem, really.

[Pattern Ghost]

He was able to hit the button in .03 seconds!!! If that's not a speed of 12, I don't know what is.

 

Sounds like Lightning Reflexes.

[Supreme]

Originally posted by Dauntless

Bruce really was superhuman...

We are actually talking about a real person who walked the Earth in the flesh. Bruce was not a comic book character, even if he acted like one. If what Bruce Lee was, exceeds the HERO system definition of "human", then we need to change the definition of "human" not start calling people like Bruce Lee "super human." Bruce Lee wasn't even the best martial artist of his time, he was just the most famous. Lee wouldn't have been able to lay a single hand on Morehei Uyeshiba.

[Trebuchet]

Originally posted by Supreme

We are actually talking about a real person who walked the Earth in the flesh. Bruce was not a comic book character, even if he acted like one. If what Bruce Lee was, exceeds the HERO system definition of "human", then we need to change the definition of "human" not start calling people like Bruce Lee "super human." Bruce Lee wasn't even the best martial artist of his time, he was just the most famous. Lee wouldn't have been able to lay a single hand on Morehei Uyeshiba.

There's no doubt in my mind that Bruce Lee was a very talented martial artist, but he was hardly superhuman. He was quick and accurate. So is Michael Jordan and Andre Agassi. Lee was a world class martial artist, but lots of people are world class at physical skills, Lee's just happened to be fighting. I expect pretty much any Champions martial artist would eat Bruce Lee for lunch.

 

I can't believe people are so impressed by kicking a cigarette out of someone's mouth. Big deal. In Champions terms, a typical stage hand has a DCV of 2. Since it's not even a combat situation, it half of that at best. A cigarette is small, but hitting a stationary object at arm's length is not all that impressive IMHO, especially since Bruce Lee (with his 15 PRE) probably preceded each attack with a powerful soliloquy:

 

"Hold still or you'll get hurt."

[eepjr24]

MA don't cost way too much...

 

Or at least not in my opinion. I have both played and had characters run in FH and Champions games. MA may be slightly too expensive for what you get, but it is pretty close overall. I took Dauntless example of 15-30 points in skills for a man at arms and a martial artist:

 

Man At Arms:

 

20 STR

17 DEX

20 CON

11 BODY

10 INT

10 EGO

13 PRE

10 COM

8 PD

6 ED

4 SPD

8 REC

40 END

31 STUN

75 Total

 

4 WF: Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons

2 KS: Military Rules and Law

2 KS: Sword Fighting

4 +2 OCV with Falchion

6 +2 with Swords

10 +2 HTH Levels

28 Total

 

Martial Artist:

 

20 STR

20 DEX

16 CON

12 BODY

13 INT

10 EGO

13 PRE

10 COM

6 PD

4 ED

4 SPD

7 REC

32 END

30 STUN

75 Total

 

3 Breakfall

2 KS: Jujutsu

2 KS: Fighting armed opponents

1 WF: Blades

 

Kito-Ryo Jujutsu:

3 Sacrifice Throw +2 OCV +1 DCV STR Strike, Both Fall

4 Joint Lock / Throw +1 OCV, Grab one limb, 1d6 NND

3 Legsweep +2 OCV -1 DCV, STR + 1d6 STR, Target falls

4 Strike +0 OCV, +2 DCV STR + 2d6 Strike

 

6 +2 with Jujutsu

28 Total

 

On the old Offense/Defense/Mobility rating I use (from one of the older excel spreadsheets, I think figured from an old article) they come out exactly the same for total rating.

 

If the MA does his first maneuver (Joint lock/throw) and splits his CSL's he is the same OCV and DCV as the MAA splitting his. He has a decent chance to keep his target on the ground, and he is not using any weapon at all. He also will wear teh MAA's stun down. He does have a decent chance of taking some body along the way. And a lucky hit by either of them would make the fight alot shorter.

 

I am not saying the MA is even with the MAA, I still think the MAA has a slight edge with his chance to end the fight in a hit or two. But he is certainly not twice as effective as the MA for the same points.

 

- Ernie

[Dauntless]

I agree that Bruce wouldn't have been able to lay a hand on O-sensei...but then again, I consider Ueshiba O-sensei to be super-human too

 

If you wish to split hairs, then the correct term would perhaps be suprahuman. But definitely their abilities are perhaps in the order of one in the hundreds of millions. By Hero costs, that simply means that they had to pay more for their "powers". Think for a moment of Ueshiba, who while in his 70's held up a stick straight up in the air, and told Sadaharu Oh (Japan's equivalent of Babe Ruth) to hit the stick with a baseball bat as hard as he could...and Sadaharu couldn't even make the stick bounce. Sadaharu said he felt like he had hit ancient oak tree, rather than hit the stick being supprted only by the wrist of an ancient man!

 

I therefore posit that 20 is not the absolute limit of human ability, but rather a guideline for what 99.99% of humanity will fall below. Think about that Indian boy they found almost a hundred years ago who had developed calculus on his own and with no formal education (unlike Liebniz and Newton...and Leibniz has been called "the last man that knew everything"). What kind of intelligence would you rate this? a 20? If this is a 20, then even most "geniuses" should rate only about 15 or 16 at best, with Einstein, Bohr, Curie, and perhaps only a handful of human beings should be rated a 20 throughout Earth's history of human intelligence.

 

So where do you draw the line? Well, I also posit that as time advances, human limits are constantly being broken. It wasn't too long ago (less than 40 years) that the max bench press was 600lbs, now guys are hitting 750. It wasn't too long ago that breaking the 4 minute mile was considered impossible (I think that was a little less than 40 years ago too). Physical limitations are falling faster than dominoes. However, most of the other non-physical stats (EGO, INT, PRE, COM for example) have remained pretty static. INT, depending on how you define INT may or may not have gone up in the last few hundred years (though in some ways, I feel it has regressed). If you define INT as education, then INT has definitely gone up since more and more people are receiving higher education. I however feel that INT is seperate from Education (as I've seen my fair share of educated idiots, and many "ignorant" people who were extremely keen and quick to learn).

 

I think you have to draw the line based on your campaign. Since we're talking Heroic level campaigns, I think you have to consider the genre and time-frame of your world. In the future, God knows how technical advancements (namely with genetic engineering and nanotechnology) could affect the potential of humanity. Conversely, if you set it in ancient times, humans were much smaller than they are today by several inches, and were probably less strong as a result (if you look at the statue of Hercules, whom the Greeks considered a demi-god and the pinnacle of human perfection...he'd be a flabby weakling by even non-steroid using body builders).

[Dauntless]

I think Bruce did have physical talents that bordered on the edge of human potential. Do I think it's greater than a 20? Yes. Why? Because if we define 20 as the absolute maximum that any and all humans are capable of, it should therefore be an incredibly rare trait. In other words, there should be only a handful...perhaps 10 or so who possess a 20 in the entire world.

 

Does this justify paying only 10pts to be stronger than 99.99999984% ( approximately) of all the human beings on Earth? Since the Hero System is all about paying for abilities for how powerful they are, it does not correlate that human maxima should be absolutely bound by certain limits. I see the 20 limit as a guideline to use for general use, and a "rule of thumb", but it's not a law.

 

How many people could do what Bruce could do? Probably quite a few, they're just not as famous. STR has a well defined quantifiable definition...since your STR determines the amount you can lift. But what about skills, or SPD, or DEX? Bruce's reaction time is insane. Take a stop watch and press the start/stop button as fast as you can and see if you can get .03 seconds. You simply have to move the button a milimeter as opposed to an arm's length away...nor do you have to factor in any reaction time. Now, what do you rate your own DEX? I personally think mine's pretty good, not great, but definitely not bad...maybe a 12 or 13. I can usually only average .06 seconds trying to start and stop a stopwatch as fast as I can with my own finger.

 

The unfortunate fact is that when you pay for attributes in the Hero System, it has a linear cost increase (some steeper than others of course), but in reality, human ability follows an bell curve. But the cost to buy them is linear...a straight line, where the X-axis is the score of the attribute, and the Y-axis is the cost in points. They don't jibe with each other. That's why I don't quite believe in the Normal Characteristic Maxima in that I allow players to purchase characteristics over 20 (though I apply a more complex algorithm than simply doubling).

[Kdansky]

Interesting, I'd say MAs are much too cheap for what you get. 4 or 5 points for 2 Damage Classes, +2 OCV and +2 DCV seems really underpriced to me.

 

Compare:

Katana 2d6 KA, used with Martial Arts defensive strike

35 points, 2d6 KA dmg, ocv +1, dcv +3

 

Sword 2d6 KA, used with combat levels

2d6 KA dmg, 2point levels: 1, 3point levels: 3 (and these do not cover ranged attacks!)

30 + 2 + 9 = 41 points.

 

Martial arts was 6 points cheaper, so where exactly is it too expensive?? We are having a large issue on the 150 points (disads included) level with everyone wanting to take MA's because they are better than CLs... Just use MA with Killing Melee weapons, you only get 50% of the DC bonus but that's still better.

 

(Offensive strike: 4 DCs, makes 2 DCs on KAs. That usually costs 10 points, but in MA you get it for 5 and some CV for free)

 

Just don't be fixed on the stereotype characters like bricks, Energy blasters and MAs, if you try to mix some powers, you'll find large balance issues

[TrickstaPriest]

Hmm...

 

This is a fairly interesting topic. Martial Arts in HERO sounds like what a Gun Bunny is in BESM. It can be VERY cheap to make a pretty powerful Gun Bunny, simply buying a few levels of the Gun Bunny Attribute, some Highly Skilled, then Personal Gear and some Focused and Massive Damage. That will give you a potent damage dealing monster for a fairly cheap cost. The price is, though, that you can only build on it using those systems for so long. After a while, all your Gun Bunny stuff will be at level 5, the max, and will only do a moderate amount of damage in, let's say, a 60-70 character point campaign. The cost of this efficiency is that you can only go so high, right? If you could build them all the way to the top, it would be unbalancing and too powerful. From what you mentioned about MA, this is your problem with it. However, there are some very powerful characters in BESM that are Gun Bunnies, ones with 100+ Character Points. How is it done? They don't use Personal Gear. Vash the Stampede has Weapon Attacks, Extra Attacks, and other really powerful and expensive Attributes. He still has some of the cheaper ones, like Gun Bunny, to add support to the powerful abilities and "keep the feel", but they are no longer the main damage dealers. A Melee Energy Blast in hero could qualify as a super-powered MA punch, a HKA a Knifehand strike. It's all about the Special Effects, and appropriate Limitations and bonuses to add to it. This is how I run my games... I don't allow people to take things they can't explain. If they want a power with "Uses No END" they have to explain why it doesn't exert them to use it. Similarly, I have heard suggestions for "Damage Shield" or "Trigger" as fair uses for automatic counterattacks. This is expensive, but it's fair. It's the same system all the other superheroes have to use, why should MA be any different? It just means that you should be giving your superpowerful martial artists more points, because when they have powers that strong, they ARE on par with superheroes, or at least weak ones. Certainly I would give Ranma Saotome (yes, a fictional character, but he's being used as an extreme example) a TON of Character Points, even if he is a Martial Artist, because he could spar with some pretty powerful superheroes. If Bruce Lee is "superhuman" by people's standard concepts of human ability, then he costs as much as a "superhuman" would. If he didn't, it wouldn't be fair to the other players. Certainly most Chi Abilities are POWERS. They just can be learned, and have their own sort of SFX.

Now, this brings up another problem. What about the HUNDREDS of techniques Bruce Lee might know? Well, taking another anime example, Hatake Kakashi knows over a thousand ninja techniques (spells, really) that he copied with his Sharingan (edit- typofix). There's no way in hell I would tell someone wanting to create his character sheet to take them individually, or even as a Multipower. How is it done? Variable Power Pool. Since it doesn't take time for him to switch powers, I would allow the martial artist in question to take "Switches as a 0 Phase action". It may not even require a Skill roll, allowing the uber-enhancement Cosmic (In Kakashi's case, the "Power Skill" roll could be a memory test "Alright, so you want to use one of your copied Illusion spells? Well, two years ago you remember that fight you had with that Waterfall ninja. Now, if you could only remember how that spell went..." Certainly that'd be an INT based skill roll.). One personal note about this is that the characters more powerful techniques would be taken seperately, as individual powers (Kakashi's Lightning Edge, for example), which means the VPP's cost could be fairly small, since it's only meant to simulate all the "little techniques" he may know. If you want it to represent more, up the pool. If you are having trouble with too many "big attacks", maybe put them in a Multipower seperately, if your GM allows it.

(Add- Err, and only after I write all this do I note Dauntless said the very same thing with quite a few less words. Oopsie. Well, I hope my breakdown was some help, anyway. ^^ It does help validate taking a group of techniques as a VPP, and it's just common sense to work them out beforehand. Certainly, Multipowers would be good for starting practictioners (see the post after mine) and VPP for advanced users. It makes sense too, since the VPP would be more expensive (having Cosmic and all), so I think it tends to work out. Also, if you look at Surbrook's page for Ifurita (http://www.devermore.net/surbrook/adaptionsanime/eh/ifurita.html), he uses a similar system for her ability to mimic attacks.)

[Hierax]

Martial Arts Too Cheap AND Too Expensive!

 

For what you get, Martial Arts are BOTH too cheap when you buy a few maneuvers and too expensive when you buy a bunch.

 

See Mark Doc's "New System for Martial Arts":

http://www.geocities.com/markdoc.geo/Gaming_stuff/martialarts.html

where he discusses this and is well worth a read as it relates exactly to this topic.

 

Moreover, he points out how you can use Multi-Powers to create a fair point cost system using the standard Hero System rules.

 

I hope Mark will forgive me for directly quoting a couple of his points that I think are particularly important:

- It is relatively cheap to add extra maneuvers, unlike the present system, where additional maneuvers add progressively less and less in the way of extra flexibility, but cost as much as the maneuvers in the initial package.

 

- It eliminates the irksome problem that someone who wants to buy a small number of martial arts attacks, to reflect limited training, effectively gets a significant price break. Contrary to common sense, this lets him become more cost-effective than a "Master of the Art".

 

YMMV, but this makes a whole lotta sense to me and I've started working on adapting it to the 5th edition rules:

http://www.hierax.com/hero/martial/Martial_Arts-Multi-Power-Hierax.pdf

 

In the end, what ever works best for your own campaign is the right way. Mark has convinced me that the Multi-Power system is the best way to go for overall balance at all point and power levels. Even if you don't agree it is worth a read through for something to think about...

[Trebuchet]

Re: Martial Arts Too Cheap AND Too Expensive!

 

Originally posted by Hierax

For what you get, Martial Arts are BOTH too cheap when you buy a few maneuvers and too expensive when you buy a bunch.In the end, what ever works best for your own campaign is the right way. Mark has convinced me that the Multi-Power system is the best way to go for overall balance at all point and power levels. Even if you don't agree it is worth a read through for something to think about...

Interesting readiing, Hierax. I've been kicking around the same idea for a while myself, but you've taken it way past where I have. I noticed in 5th Edition UMA that many maneuvers are virtual duplicates of others.

 

Have you any idea of where the "break even" point is as far as efficiency of cost? I was looking at "multipower martial arts" as a logical variant for a character that gets by more on raw speed and ability rather than actual training in martial arts.

[badger3k]

What I've found is similar to most. At lower point costs, martial arts maneuvers are effective. Add 2-4 DC to an attack is a big bonus, added with OCV/DCV bonuses too. The maneuvers can make a heroic character powerful. When you go to higher levels, they aren't effective. I've made a standard 350 point martial arts superhero. Bought lots of maneuvers but no extra DCs, bought heightened attributes and not a lot of skills. The character was effective vs normals or lower powered characters. Put him up against a superpowered character and he was less effective. Which to me is the way it should be. The old martial artists of comics (shang-chi, iron fist, karate kid, karnak of the inhumans) could be tough but no match for super-powered characters (without a special power, such as iron fists' chi power, or the find weakness ability I'd seen used by karate kid or karnak). Keep maneuvers for lower-level, heroic characters and make martial arts as a multipower or vpp for the super-heroic characters.

 

To reflect high-powered martial artists or the fantastic abilities often ascribed to them, I'd go ahead with the vpp or multipower. I haven't tried using the rules in the uma on ading advantages to martial arts, so I can't say how effective those make the maneuvers.

 

Finally, as personal opinion, I like the generic way that maneuvers cover multiple actions. A black belt may know many hand strikes, but do we need a different maneuver becuase one strike is done with the palm, another with a knife-hand, etc. To me, while that would add variety (which can be done when describing the strike), it would also make the system more complex than necessary. To reflect a black belts expertise, I'd buy skill levels or extra DCs (or chi powers) rather than have 200 different maneuvers. Buying +2 with strike or +3 with dodge would reflect getting better with a maneuver better than buying another one, IMO.