increasing END cost

[altamaros]

Hi i would like to simulate the following effect :

 

the more the character uses his/her power the more it costs him END. ( i would use it probably charges also to keep a easier way to define the return to the "first" sue after exhaustion)

 

The difference is that the END cost increases exponientally : i.e.

 

1st use : x1 END

2nd use : x2 END

3rd use : x3 END

4th use : x4 END

etc..

[n]th use : x[n] END

 

any ideas ?

[Monolith]

I would consider it to be a Side Effect (Major Side Effect which always occurs when power is used): -1.

[hex706f726368]

what's the time interval before it resets to x1 end cost? assuming that it resets between battles, i'd calculate/guesstimate the avg number of phases you expect the character to use his power per battle and take the avg of that and compare it to the xN end cost limitation as use that as a guide.

 

e.g.

say you expect to use the power 5 times per battle

(1+2+3+4+5)/5 = 3

so i'd just take a custom modifier at the same minus as x3 end

 

if it turns out differntly than expect, your gm and you can adjust it later

[SilverMarble]

I like Monolith's idea of having a Limitation of side effect. you can even tie into or link to a personal END Drain. Eventually the character would run out of END, and it should play cool, since the player does not know how many times he/she can actually get the power off.

[Tech]

I have a hero who's power doubles in END cost after the first use in a battle. I kept it at a -1 Limitation, not as a Side Effect. Side Effect is too quirky to use in this matter.

[altamaros]

Hi

 

im detailing a bit more the power (Hex, it's for a pregenerated PC, i'm the GM)

 

The SFX is that : The PC can release a powerful energy blast but the use of this power is not only tiring but also stresses a lot the PC's body; after a few uses he can even be exhausted or even stunned (when the power's END cost exceeds his current END reserve). no matter how long he takes to recover (so basically it returns to "first use" position between adventures).

here is the first draft of the power.

 

Energy blast: 12D6 (60 B.Pts/90 A.Pts)

+ Armor-piercing: +1/2

- Increasing END Cost: -?

 

 

On the suggestions :

 

Like Tech, I don't like the idea of a side effect: it would imply to build it as a drain vs END with all the problems of the random effect (D6)

 

i approve the Hex's idea to count how many times the power will be used in one adventure but it's a new character and i've got no idea of that.

 

On the alternative, i could use "charges" this way.

 

Another GM i know came to me this week-end and suggested to apply the lim

- x ["charges"] END cost (8 charges => x 8 END Cost)

and then apply the "gradual effect" limitation on the "END cost" limitation.

 

Energy blast: 12D6 (60 B.Pts/90 A.Pts)

+ Armor-piercing: +1/2

- charges [8c]: -1/2

- Costs END: -1/2

- END x 8: -3,5

 

Base: 60

Active: 90

Real: 16

 

the END x8 lim. is worth 29 points.

 

apply a gradual on these 29 points

 

but i would prefer not to use it since

a) i don't want to limit the number of times the power can be used.

the "gradual effect" just don't do that.

c) At the end, it seems to have a rather low for a rather powerful effect (after half of the charges can be used without too much effort).

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by altamaros

i approve the Hex's idea to count how many times the power will be used in one adventure but it's a new character and i've got no idea of that.

 

On the alternative, i could use "charges" this way.

 

Another GM i know came to me this week-end and suggested to apply the lim

- x ["charges"] END cost (8 charges => x 8 END Cost)

and then apply the "gradual effect" limitation on the "END cost" limitation.

 

Energy blast: 12D6 (60 B.Pts/90 A.Pts)

+ Armor-piercing: +1/2

- charges [8c]: -1/2

- Costs END: -1/2

- END x 8: -3,5

 

Base: 60

Active: 90

Real: 16

 

the END x8 lim. is worth 29 points.

 

apply a gradual on these 29 points

 

but i would prefer not to use it since

a) i don't want to limit the number of times the power can be used.

the "gradual effect" just don't do that.

c) At the end, it seems to have a rather low for a rather powerful effect (after half of the charges can be used without too much effort).

 

It's a 45 point cost even without moving the END up the charts, so the cost won't be that high at the end of the day anyway.

 

You say you don't want to limit usage but, in effect. you already have. Once the END multiple gets high enough, he's looking at being knocked out by using the power, at least unless he curtails his dice significantly. Eg. assume he has 50 END. At 8x END, and assuming he's at full END, he burns all END plus 11d6 Stun. At 10x END, it's 20d6 STUN, and 29d6 at 12x END. Assuming he also has 50 STUN (and I consider 50 END and 50 Stun pretty good), he-s at -37 STUN on standard 3 points per die - GM's option. A further multiple makes no real difference.

 

What about staggered charges? Buy several EB's with one charge, each costing END and limited with "Can't MPA with other EB's and must be used in order; -1/4". Buy 1 charge each at normal END cost, 2x END, 3x END and so on up to, say, 11x END. Then buy the EB 12x END without charges, only after charges exhausted and can't MPA with charges (90 active / 6.75 = 13 points) which is the unlimited blast. If he has enough END and STUN that 12x isn't instant KO, buy some more 1 charges at higher END multiples.

 

It's not elegant, but I don't see an elegant way to generate the effect you're looking for.

[altamaros]

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

You say you don't want to limit usage but, in effect. you already have. Once the END multiple gets high enough, he's looking at being knocked out by using the power, at least unless he curtails his dice significantly. Eg. assume he has 50 END. At 8x END, and assuming he's at full END, he burns all END plus 11d6 Stun. At 10x END, it's 20d6 STUN, and 29d6 at 12x END. Assuming he also has 50 STUN (and I consider 50 END and 50 Stun pretty good), he-s at -37 STUN on standard 3 points per die - GM's option. A further multiple makes no real difference.

Yep, this is exactly the kind of effects and drawbacks the player is looking for. his character is a rip-off of the Saint Seiya's characters.

 

What about staggered charges? Buy several EB's with one charge, each costing END and limited with "Can't MPA with other EB's and must be used in order; -1/4". Buy 1 charge each at normal END cost, 2x END, 3x END and so on up to, say, 11x END. Then buy the EB 12x END without charges, only after charges exhausted and can't MPA with charges (90 active / 6.75 = 13 points) which is the unlimited blast. If he has enough END and STUN that 12x isn't instant KO, buy some more 1 charges at higher END multiples.

 

It's not elegant, but I don't see an elegant way to generate the effect you're looking for.

 

But you're giving me a idea : using a MP rather then a limitation

 

30 MP : MyPower

3u "first blow"

EB: 12D6 (90 AP, 26 real: 3u )

+ armor-piercing: +1/2

- 1 charge: -2

- costs END : -1/2

 

2u "second blow"

EB: 12D6 (90 AP, 23 real: 2u )

+ armor-piercing: +1/2

- 1 charge: -2

- costs END : -1/2

- END x2: -1/2

- only after charge (n-1) exhausted: -1/4 (this lim doesn't change anything either)

etc ...

 

the result

 

30 MP

3u first blow

2u each use from 2nd to 7th

1u each use after 8th (15 real points)

 

the total cost reaches the limit of 45 points for 8 uses.

[Tom McCarthy]

The multipower pool has to cover the Active points of each slot, so it needs to be 90 points. That said, if the slot to use is dictated (i.e. the multipower user has no choice of the active slot), I would (generously) give the multipower pool a -1 for No Conscious Control of the slot to use. I'd also give it the -.5 for Costs END, just to bring the price down.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by Tom McCarthy

The multipower pool has to cover the Active points of each slot, so it needs to be 90 points. That said, if the slot to use is dictated (i.e. the multipower user has no choice of the active slot), I would (generously) give the multipower pool a -1 for No Conscious Control of the slot to use. I'd also give it the -.5 for Costs END, just to bring the price down.

 

Well, each slot has "costs END", so that's -1/2 to the base. The multi as a total has 8 shots (with 8 slots), so that's -1/2. Tack on, say -1 on the pool cost for "no choice which slot to use each time" and the base costs 23 (90/4), leaving room for 3 more slots, so now we're up to 12 (which raises the base points, if course). UGH!

 

The only catch is that he's out of luck after 12 shots - no more charges. Given the magnitude of limitations, I think I would look the other way and let the player have unlimited shots with the final slot, but that would be cheating

 

Hmmm...let's look at this another way. The first slot has 1 charge (-2) and Costs END (-1/2). All the others have more limits due to increased END cost, and the last has at least 8x END (-3.5). What if the base has "Variable Limitation" for - 1 1/4 and "no choice which order to use slots and can't vary each slot's limitations" for -1

 

90/3.25 = 28 points for the base. We've got 17 points to spend on slots before we hit 45.

 

Slot 1 costs 3 (1 ch; costs END - 90/3.5 = 2.57)

Slots 2 to 7 cost 2 each

Slot 8 is 12d6 AP EB, x8 END and costs 2 (90/4.5 = 20).

 

17 points spent on slots.

 

Total cost - 45 points

 

Once he hits x8 END, that's all it can take out of him.

 

I guess he could buy only (say) 7 shots/slots, and spend his extra 2 points on 12d6 AP blast, only if MP slots all used (call it -1/2), x 88 END (-43 1/2 limit), but that seems excessive somehow

 

At the end of the day, you're looking at "GM Fiat" to make this work. He could get 8 charges that cost 9 END each for 45 points. I don't think getting unlimited shots whose END cost increases by 9 each time should be more expensive, and the multipower construct makes it cost the same - it's going to be painful to use after even two or three of shots; forget 8.

 

If he made the whole EB x 5 END (-3 limit), he'd get it for 30 points with unlimited usage, and pay 45 END per shot (OUCH!). Seems to me the "right" cost is somewhere between 30 and 45. I'd gut feel the END doubling as a +1 to +2 limitation (+1 = 45 points, and equates to 4 charges - using it after that will be crippling anyway; +2 means 30 points which equates to 5x END at the outset, which would be crippling from the start). I'm inclined to say +1 1/2 for a cost of 36, same as 4 charges that cost normal END. For six points, he gets a very few shots that are not prohibitively expensive to fire.

 

[Maybe he could have 12x END from the outset and have a Linked Heal to END with charged dice having standard 6 END per die, but that's likely to drive me insane to try to compute, so let's go with the above...]

[Talon]

Instead of counting how many times the power is likely to be used, count how many times it can be used before the END cost will take him from full END to total unconsciousness. Then base the value on an equivalent number of Charges.

 

For example, say the power is 60 Active Points (6 END) and the character has 32 END and 32 STUN, and that the GM defines totally out as -30 STUN. The character will have to take 62 STUN, which requires about 18d6. That means the character will have to burn 36 STUN as END, or a total END use of 36 + 32 = 68 for the power.

 

That'll be about the 12th use of the power (12 * 6 = 72). At that point, he'll be out for more or less the rest of the adventure. So, for the Limitation:

 

12 Charges (-1/2 I think).

Costs END (-1/2)

Increased END Cost: the average END cost is going to be x6 END, but I'd bump it down to x4 figuring that the character won't be knocking himself out that often. x4 END is - 1 1/2.

 

So, I would look at all of these and assign a value of around -2 1/2.

[Dr.Device]

comparisons

 

Geoff Speare wrote:

12 Charges (-1/2 I think).

Costs END (-1/2)

Increased END Cost: the average END cost is going to be x6 END, but I'd bump it down to x4 figuring that the character won't be knocking himself out that often. x4 END is - 1 1/2.

 

The problem with this is that it is the ame value as 2 charges (-1 1/2), Costs endurance (-1/2), x2 endurance (-1/2), but is considerably less limiting.

 

As a good rule of thumb, I would suggest that any power that can be used at least once, any time, at full effect and with no penalties, should not have a total limitation value of less than the value of one charge (-2) costs end (-1/2). If it doesn't cost enduarance, I would hold that to -2.

 

For example, it would be silly to allow Burnout on 8- (-1 1/2), & 2 Charges (-1 1/2) for a total limitation of -3, since the combined limits are marginally less limiting than the -2 valued 1 charge limitation.

 

Back on-topic, I can't see giving this particular limitation more than a -2, and probably just a -1 1/2.

[Grailknight]

I think that Monolith has the right idea but you should model this as more of a vulnerability. The character loses [n-1]END for every n times he uses the power in the timeframe. Unless you have another attack power or large amounts of END , you'll knock yourself out even if you're not attacked. Remember 1d6 STUN for every -2 END.

[Blue Jogger]

Whole different idea.

 

Buy the power as such

12D6 EB, Use End Reserve or Personal End (+1/4), x10 END Cost (-4),

Must use an increasing ratio of personal end (-1/4)

(75 Active, 14 Real)

 

Then buy an END Reserve, (note that the minuses are the amounts that have to be paid with personal END)

(60-6)+(60-12)+(60-18)+(60-24)+(60-30)+(60-36)+(60-42)+(60-48)+(60-54)=

54+48+42+36+30+24+18+12+6= 270 END (27 Real)

 

Of course, this tops out at x10 END (and no longer uses the END reserve).

 

This gives a total cost as 41 real points. Note, this does go against Steve's warning of High END Cost and END Reserve, but I think it balances out. Personally, I think of END Reserve as worthy of its own power structure next to EC and Multipower. But I'm a "pizza oven" kinda of guy. (For those keeping score, this is equivalent to a net 1/2 limitation)

 

There are two types of Champions players, ones who use calculators, and ones that have Lightning Calculator Talent.

[altamaros]

Thanks to all.

 

I talked to the player and the idea of the END reserve seems okay for him (it's the most simple and it doesn't use charges; i suspect him to push another player to buy some sort of Aid or Succor) besides the END reserve also allows to add other powers working the same way very simply.

 

(except that the lim "Must use an increasing ratio of personal end" is on the END reserve along with a "Personal REC" lim. on the reserve's REC).

[Blue Jogger]

Magnifier glass goes here.

 

Playing a character with an END Reserve and high END Cost means that he's going to have to budget his END so that it will last the battle. If he runs out, make sure that he has some skills or other gadgets so that he'll have something to do.

 

Or he might just go in "guns abazing" since if the bad guys are all down fast enough, who cares about budgeting?