Should FH wizards use VPPs?

[Guest Keneton]

WOWZA!

 

Now can anyone argue my players cannot think of spells?

LOL!

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Re: Re: Save How

 

Originally posted by Keneton

The point I am making is that the VPP does not save points. It is far more expensive than a Multipower. The break even point is beyond most Fantasy Hero Campaigns.

 

Think of a wizard package for example with 40 points in spells. Thats a fairly competent wizard using a multipower or the Turakian method. With a VPP he's a whimp able to cast max 30 active point attacks.

 

The VPP for fantsy hero is overrated unless you are playing high powered near superheroic fantasy.

 

The point I still contend is that the VPP is not a useful tool for heroic level fanstasy hero. It cost way too much for the flexibility. you would gain.

 

This is dead on. The VPP suffers two disadvantages in Fantasy Hero. First, there is no way to get a break on the pool cost, so the pool will always be expensive. This is an issue in any campagn, but with the base points in a typical Fantasy Hero campaign (say 75+75), getting a high active point total is too expensive.

 

Second, a Fantasy Hero spell with less than -1 in limitations is virtually unheard of. In a multipower, that means at least a -1/2 limitation on the base (Variable Limit -1/2) and more likely -1, or even more, if all your spells have certain de minimis limitations (eg. Gestures, Incantations, RSR). In a multi, this reduces the "pool cost". A VPP just gets to have more spells in it at one time.

 

If you would have had no limitations, and a 50 point pool, the VPP costs 75 points. Make the VPP cosmic and it costs 125 - now you can change it as fast as the multi (and can you really afford to waste a lot of phases changing your pool when you have a 3 or 4 Speed?). You need 15 full-power ultra slots to have an equal cost, so say 10 spells on the assumption some don't use the full reserve, but many are not Ultras.

 

But if you have a -1 limitation, the VPP costs 88 points, while the Multi base costs only 25. Equalizing requires 63 points worth of slots - 21 full power ultras with no limitations, or over 30 full power ultras with another +1/4 limitation. Assume a mix similar to that discussed above, and we're talking over 20 spells that draw on the power pool. Spells I plan on having up pretty much all the time might not go in the VPP (eg. that force field since my wizard likely wears no armor).

 

More limitations makes the multipower more cost-effective comparatively. About the only big advantage to the VPP is that you could have two or more attack powers and use them as a multi-power attack (your limitations do reduce the cost to the pool). But how many spells with Incantations and Gestures can reasonably be cast simultaneously anyway, and just how much END have you got to power them?

[Guest Keneton]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Save How

 

Originally posted by Hugh Neilson

This is dead on.

 

Thanks for seeing my point. The good thing about these threads is the ability to reason out mechanics issues. I see the utility of the VPP, but I also see the disadvantages.

 

I thank you for your analysis as it was far more concise than my original post which caused more confusion than clarity. I am loathe to move my fantasy hero game to the turakian system from a purist prospective. I also like a uniform set of rules to allow for cross genre adventures. i do allow multipowers in FH and also many spells bought outside the framework.

[Killer Shrike]

VPPs are impractical for "Heroic Level" fantasy, no question.

 

However, I run High Fantasy, so it all works out, particularly at higher point levels.....

[Damon_Dusk]

Well, how would you propose a "heroic-level" fantasy magic system where wizards can learn unlimited numbers of spells yet still be balanced? Would you throw a bunch of limitations on a Multipower and let the points balance it out?

 

The problems I have with Multipower as magic is this: Why would you ever have 2 spells that use the same base power in a multipower? For example, 2 Invisibility spells: One vs. Normal Sight, One vs. Normal Hearing (both viable spells). Why would you pay points for 2 Invsibility spells separately when you could just pay points for one? Especially when the AP cost is only 5 points difference between the two. In a VPP, you're not paying points for the spells, they're free, so 2 Invisibility spells is perfectly reasonable. Also, applying Gestures, Incantations, etc. to the whole MP actively prevents you from learning 1 spell that can be cast silently or without movement.

 

I'm sure that a lot of things depend on the style of magic that you're looking for, but I guess I'm looking for the "typical" wizard style of magic, and from what I see, the VPP is the closest legal system to that.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by Damon_Dusk

Well, how would you propose a "heroic-level" fantasy magic system where wizards can learn unlimited numbers of spells yet still be balanced? Would you throw a bunch of limitations on a Multipower and let the points balance it out?

 

The problems I have with Multipower as magic is this: Why would you ever have 2 spells that use the same base power in a multipower? For example, 2 Invisibility spells: One vs. Normal Sight, One vs. Normal Hearing (both viable spells). Why would you pay points for 2 Invsibility spells separately when you could just pay points for one? Especially when the AP cost is only 5 points difference between the two. In a VPP, you're not paying points for the spells, they're free, so 2 Invisibility spells is perfectly reasonable. Also, applying Gestures, Incantations, etc. to the whole MP actively prevents you from learning 1 spell that can be cast silently or without movement.

 

I'm sure that a lot of things depend on the style of magic that you're looking for, but I guess I'm looking for the "typical" wizard style of magic, and from what I see, the VPP is the closest legal system to that.

VPPs work great for Magic Systems, but they necessitate you to bump the point level of the campaign a tad to make the best use of them. They work great for High Fantasy, not as good for lower fantasy.

[Seenar]

I may be missing something, but how can you have slot costs of zero? I would think the minimum slot costs would be 1.

[sbarron]

That was a list of possible spells in a VPP, not a multipower.

[Guest Keneton]

Concerning slots and limitations.

 

Place the limitations on the whole multipower that apply to all spells in the multipower and limitations on the slots that apply to the slots only.. An example.

 

In FH Campaign #1 GM Smith requires the following limitations.

 

*Gestures, Incantations, Requires a skill roll.

 

On attack spells he requires

 

*Spell

 

Optional limitations are legion and so he allows them with GM approval. These may include increased end, side effects, concentration, focus, etc.

 

In most cases the wizard will keep a defensive forcefield, a detct, and a movement power outside the mutipower.

[sbarron]

I was always a big believer in the small VPP to represent lots of low level spells that make a Wizard cool, and either a MP or just buying spells outright for the more potent/combat spells. Below is a VPP I just put together that only costs 20 points. I realize that is a bunch for a 150 pt character, but I think what he can do with it in return more than makes up for it.

 

I would always put additional restrictions on spell casters just to make sure that everyone doesn't grab a cool VPP like this. But the spells below (and my imagination on how to use them) is why I would want to play a wizard. A 3d6 RKA is cool too, but, for me at least, this little stuff is what makes a wizard fun to play.

 

Cost	Power	END
20	Cantrips: Variable Power Pool (Magic Pool), 10 base + 10 control cost, No Skill Roll Required (+1) (20 Active Points)
0	1) Force Field: Force Field (5 PD/5 ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	2) Shadow Walk: Teleportation 5" (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	3) Telekinesis (5 STR) (8 Active Points) Real Cost: 7	1
0	4) Light Spell: Sight Group Images, Increases Size (16" radius; +1) (10 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1) Real Cost: 5	1
0	5) Light a candle: Energy Blast 2d6 (vs. ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	6) Feather Fall: Gliding 10" (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10
0	7) Drain Any Characteristic: Drain 1d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	8) Darkness field: Darkness to Hearing Group 2" radius (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	9) Spider Climb: Clinging (normal STR) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10
0	10) Aid Any Characteristic: Aid 1d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10
0	11) Hardened Fist: Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6 (10 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) Real Cost: 7	1
0	12) Smoke Rings: Sight Group Images (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	13) Bird Call: Hearing Group Images, Increases Size (16" radius; +1) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	14) Growth: Growth (+10 STR, +2 BODY, +2 STUN, -2" KB, +0 DCV, +0 PER Rolls to perceive character, 2 m tall, 1 m wide, 399 kg mass) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	15) Fish Gills: Life Support , Expanded Breathing (5 Active Points) Real Cost: 5
0	16) Frog Jump: Leaping +10" (12"/14" forward, 6"/7" upward) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	17) Start a fire: Killing Attack - Ranged 0 1/2d6 (vs. ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	18) Luck of the Irish: Luck 2d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10

Powers Cost: 20

[sbarron]

Since I have begun fooling around with making a character with the above VPP...what does everyone think is the appropriate number of points that a starting Wizard should spend on his spells? Assuming a 150 point character.

 

I think I saw someone mention 40 pts as being a pretty competent wizard. I that the general consensus? I think I might go higher, say 60.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by sbarron

Since I have begun fooling around with making a character with the above VPP...what does everyone think is the appropriate number of points that a starting Wizard should spend on his spells? Assuming a 150 point character.

 

I think I saw someone mention 40 pts as being a pretty competent wizard. I that the general consensus? I think I might go higher, say 60.

At least 75 to be creditable. But that includes ALL things pertaining to being a Wizard, and will vary from Magic System to Magic System. Too subjective for there to be a "perfect" number/amount.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by sbarron

I was always a big believer in the small VPP to represent lots of low level spells that make a Wizard cool, and either a MP or just buying spells outright for the more potent/combat spells. Below is a VPP I just put together that only costs 20 points. I realize that is a bunch for a 150 pt character, but I think what he can do with it in return more than makes up for it.

 

I would always put additional restrictions on spell casters just to make sure that everyone doesn't grab a cool VPP like this. But the spells below (and my imagination on how to use them) is why I would want to play a wizard. A 3d6 RKA is cool too, but, for me at least, this little stuff is what makes a wizard fun to play.

 

Cost	Power	END
20	Cantrips: Variable Power Pool (Magic Pool), 10 base + 10 control cost, No Skill Roll Required (+1) (20 Active Points)
0	1) Force Field: Force Field (5 PD/5 ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	2) Shadow Walk: Teleportation 5" (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	3) Telekinesis (5 STR) (8 Active Points) Real Cost: 7	1
0	4) Light Spell: Hearing Group Images, Increases Size (16" radius; +1) (10 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1) Real Cost: 5	1
0	5) Light a candle: Energy Blast 2d6 (vs. ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	6) Feather Fall: Gliding 10" (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10
0	7) Drain Any Characteristic: Drain 1d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	8) Darkness field: Darkness to Hearing Group 2" radius (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	9) Spider Climb: Clinging (normal STR) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10
0	10) Aid Any Characteristic: Aid 1d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10
0	11) Hardened Fist: Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6 (10 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) Real Cost: 7	1
0	12) Smoke Rings: Sight Group Images (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	13) Bird Call: Hearing Group Images, Increases Size (16" radius; +1) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	14) Growth: Growth (+10 STR, +2 BODY, +2 STUN, -2" KB, +0 DCV, +0 PER Rolls to perceive character, 2 m tall, 1 m wide, 399 kg mass) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	15) Fish Gills: Life Support , Expanded Breathing (5 Active Points) Real Cost: 5
0	16) Frog Jump: Leaping +10" (12"/14" forward, 6"/7" upward) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	17) Start a fire: Killing Attack - Ranged 0 1/2d6 (vs. ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	18) Luck of the Irish: Luck 2d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10

Powers Cost: 20

 

I try to copy and paste the above to a Word file, but to no avail - got that in a doc you can email me?

[Seenar]

I rather like letting mages use their Magic Power Skill roll to pull off small effects. A Fire mage has no problem lighting fires, for instance, a Northron mage can always chill a drink, or keep food preserved by freezing it etc.

[Guest C_Zeree]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

At least 75 to be creditable. But that includes ALL things pertaining to being a Wizard, and will vary from Magic System to Magic System. Too subjective for there to be a "perfect" number/amount.

 

Talking active points now.

 

From your 3E breakdown, wasn't a 150 pt character ~3rd lv in experience? What AP are the mages slinging around now? If the VPP's are 60~75 pts. I never felt 3rd lv mages were slinging around that much power. Just a question about the avg power lv of 1st to 2nd lv spells.

 

Mages aren't wet behind the ears anymore, but they aren't experience fireball tossers either.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by C_Zeree

Talking active points now.

Nope, real. Basically about half or more of a Wizards points should be spent on magic IMO.

Originally posted by C_Zeree

From your 3E breakdown, wasn't a 150 pt character ~3rd lv in experience?

2nd IIRC 125 +20 = 145 = 2nd, 145 +15 = 160 = 3rd

 

However, Im also reevaluating this as I move forward. Ive been working the past 2 weeks on updating my old 2e Conversion, combining it with the incomplete 3e Conversion to make a High Fantasy HERO general resource. Basically there will be a collection of content intended to be used together, and also provided will be conversion spokes for both 2e and 3e. The end result is a xD&D flavored High Fantasy, but very flexible and open to interpretation/spin.

 

The 3e conversion only needs 1 chart, but the 2e needs several, bcs each class had a different progression rate in AD&D 2e. Also, we used the 2e conversion for 4+ years of play so Im comfortable with their usability, whereas the 3e chart is untested in play. So, once Im finished with the 2e spoke Ill start on the 3e spoke and will reevaluate the Level to CP charts of all concerned and make them all work happily together so that someone could bring in a character from 2e and another person could bring in a character from 3e and they'd all live happily together in the HERO System.

 

One thing that has been on my mind of late as I slog through the 2e conversion is that 3e characters seem to be more powerful at the low end than 2e characters, slow down a little bit in the middle, comparatively, and then explode in terms of power in later levels. This is becuase of the level stacking and 1 to 20 mentality of 3e, whereas 2e was basically 1 to 10 or so, and then get dribs and drabs of stuff there after -- only the wizard REALLY takes off in 2e. So I may end up bumping the points on the 3e conversions low end. To soon to tell.....

 

Those interested in contributing and being constructively critical & editorial are welcome to send me their emails and Ill add them to the distribution list. Im releasing nearly daily updates as I work through it and add content. Im concentrating on updating the 2e conversion first as I have quite a bit of verbage available as a starting place from my old conversion, and Ive been expanding that out into general usage as I go.

 

So far Ive got protos of:

The basic Race Packages

Fighters & Exotic Warriors, with 5 Base Packages, a number of Extention Packages, and several Composite Packages built for "Fighters", and all 4 of the "Exotic Warriors", ie Generic Paladins, Rangers, Monks, and Barbarians are done as Composite Packages, using 1 of the Fighter Base Packages, some Extention Packages, and custom abilities.

Rogues, with 5 Base Packages, a number of Extention Packages, and about 8 Composite Packages. Im leaving Bards until the very end of the conversion, or at least until Arcane casters are completely in the box, as they cross too many class boundaries for me to want to tackle them now.

Arcane Magic System (just wrapped that up)

 

Its a web-based body of work, as it is intended to be launched as a web site when finished/ closer to completion. So, those who wish to participate in the development process should be somewhat web savvy.....at least enough to understand how to replicate the directory structure used so that the links work correctly.

 

Originally posted by C_Zeree

What AP are the mages slinging around now? If the VPP's are 60~75 pts. I never felt 3rd lv mages were slinging around that much power. Just a question about the avg power lv of 1st to 2nd lv spells.

 

Mages aren't wet behind the ears anymore, but they aren't experience fireball tossers either.

 

Third level spells are designed to be btwn 46-60 AP in the Magic System I am using; which is 15 AP per Spell Level including 0 level (1-15 AP), 1st (16-30 AP), and 2nd (31-45 AP).

 

At 60 AP you are looking at a Fireball being a 8d6 N Explosion or a 2d6 K Radius as a good baseline on even dice of effect.

 

A 3e Wizard gains access to 3rd level spells at 5th character level, which is some where close to 200 character points by the current 3e chart IIRC. By the current Control Cost definition Im using for Wizards that would cost 72 points for the VPP, plus they would need some skills; assuming they took the Scholar Skill Enhancer (and they would be fools not to) a basic INT roll for the 8 Wizard KS Spell Schools (KS: Divination, KS: Evocation, etc) would cost 16, so 19 points there (with the enhancer), and perhaps an Overall Skill level to help out on the rolls, and as a generall good thing to have so 10 more points. So basically, 101 points, or half the character.

[AnotherSkip]

Originally posted by Killer Shrike

VPPs are impractical for "Heroic Level" fantasy, no question.

 

However, I run High Fantasy, so it all works out, particularly at higher point levels.....

 

 

i ABSOLUTELY disagree!!!!!

 

VPP's are essential to low powered fantasy!

 

the cost to tie up makes this choice essential to the lower powered characters.

 

look for 22 points I can get a megascaled AOE 1d6 ERKA.

sorry most people do not put that in a MP, in addition by spending the time to change stuff I can narrow that down to whatever "megascaled size" I need.

 

Sure it don't stop everybody but when they get close I have other tings to use.

 

the advantages in sheer flexibility are incredible.

 

+22 Str, then +4 CSL, then +22 PD, Sorry I can stop any one any time I need to If I am ready for the combat.

Change that +4 CSL, +8 Vs Sweep penalties, +8 Vs range penalties (SFX time slows for me) suddenly, IIRC, I am taking 5 shots at +4 OCV at 32" range AT NO PENALTIES PER PHASE.

 

Veddy Veddy scary.

 

who needs 60 AC value spells?

 

Not me.

[Killer Shrike]

Mileages vary but in my experience anything you can do with a low powered VPP you can do with a MPP for less hassle. {shrug} Ill be the first to admit however that I havent played enough Low Fantasy to definitively rule it out however.

 

As a side point on the 22 Pool VPP, whats the Control Cost comprised of? if its a combat flexible VPP with at least 1/2 Phase change the control cost is 16 points minus any lims, so the active points is around 38, plus you need a Power Skill for at least 3 points, and if you are offsetting the -2 for switching out the enitire pool, thats 4 more points, plus even at that you have a chance of failure and a 1/2 Phase action involved per switch.

 

A MPP built on around 45 points (in the same ballpark as the above VPP), with 30 pool and 15 points in ultra slots, with no chance of failure to change slots as a 0 Phase action......granted you sacrifice breadth, but you can still add slots every session unless the GM is real stingy on XP, and to increase the Pool is 1:1. To increase the VPP is 1 + CC : 1, and every 10 AP increase warrants another +1 to the control skill for 2 more points.......

 

 

Dont get me wrong, I use VPPs for magic and I think it works out at high levels for certain paradigms, but at low level I would probably opt for the MPP.

[sbarron]

You could Another Skip, if your GM let you. I wouldn't though. One of the most unbablancing characters I ever GM'd for was a "Combat Mage." He basically bought a bunch of 1/2 phase action spells that he could trigger during segment 12. +15 to STR, +8 to Dex, +4 CSL, etc.

 

In effect, he built a fighter that got to take limitations on his CHAR and skill levels. He whooped ass big time, sure. But that wasn't fun for anyone else. So I have sinced vowed to not let happen in one of my games again. Mages can cast "SPELLS." They can't buy a bunch of powers lightly veiled under the guise of "magic."

[sbarron]

Here is a Mage I just put together at work that uses a small VPP and a MP. I think he is pretty well balanced, and has access to a wide variety of spells.

 

Lucian Cloudchaser

 

Player:

 

Val	Char	Cost
13	STR	3
17	DEX	21
15	CON	10
10	BODY	0
18	INT	8
13	EGO	6
13	PRE	3
10	COM	0
6	PD	0
6	ED	0
3	SPD	3
6	REC	0
30	END	0
25	STUN	0

6" RUN02" SWIM02 1/2" LEAP0Characteristics Cost: 54

 

Cost	Power	END
15	Cantrips: Variable Power Pool (Magic Pool), 10 base + 5 control cost (15 Active Points)
0	1) Force Field: Force Field (5 PD/5 ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	2) Shadow Walk: Teleportation 5" (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	3) Smoke Cloud: Darkness to Sight Group 1" radius (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	4) Mind over Matter: Telekinesis (5 STR) (8 Active Points) Real Cost: 7	1
0	5) Light a candle: Energy Blast 2d6 (vs. ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	6) Feather Fall: Gliding 10" (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10
0	7) Drain Any Characteristic: Drain 1d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	8) Spider Climb: Clinging (normal STR) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10
0	9) Aid Any Characteristic: Aid 1d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10
0	10) Hardened Fist: Hand-To-Hand Attack +2d6 (10 Active Points); Hand-To-Hand Attack (-1/2) Real Cost: 7	1
0	11) Shrinking: Shrinking (0.9271 m tall, 0.4636 m wide, 10.2058 kg mass, -2 PER Rolls to perceive character, +2 DCV, +3" KB) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	12) Growth: Growth (+10 STR, +2 BODY, +2 STUN, -2" KB, +0 DCV, +0 PER Rolls to perceive character, 2 m tall, 1 m wide, 327 kg mass) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	13) Ships Through Smoke Rings: Sight Group Images (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	14) Bird Call: Hearing Group Images, Increases Size (16" radius; +1) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	15) Fish Gills: Life Support , Expanded Breathing (5 Active Points) Real Cost: 5
0	16) Frog Jump: Leaping 10" (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	17) Reardare's Flame: Killing Attack - Ranged 0 1/2d6 (vs. ED) (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10	1
0	18) Luck of the Irish: Luck 2d6 (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10
0	19) Detect Magic: Detect A Single Thing 15-, Range (10 Active Points) Real Cost: 10
0	20) Light Spell: Sight Group Images (10 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1) Real Cost: 5	1
15	Wizard Spells: Multipower, 45-point reserve, all slots: (45 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (-1/2), Extra Time Full Phase (-1/2), Side Effects (-1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)
1u	1) Magwem's Mighty Wings: Flight 15" (30 Active Points)	3
1u	2) Smitty's Invisible Hand: Telekinesis (30 STR) (45 Active Points)	4
1u	3) Summon Fog Bank: Darkness to Sight and Sight Groups 3" radius (40 Active Points)	4
1u	4) Darius' Magic Render: Dispel 15d6 (45 Active Points)	4
1u	5) Fretta's FIre Storm: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (vs. ED), Explosion (+1/2) (45 Active Points)	4
1u	6) Lorenda's Lightning Lance: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (vs. ED), Armor Piercing x1 (+1/2) (45 Active Points)	4
1u	7) Freagle's Frosty Force: Energy Blast 9d6 (vs. ED) (45 Active Points)	4
1u	8) Identify Magic : Detect Magic 13-, Analyze, Discriminatory, Range (18 Active Points)

Powers Cost: 38

 

 

Cost	Skill
3	Bureaucratics 12-
3	Concealment 13-
3	Paramedic 13-
2	Cryptography (Only to translate languages) 13-
3	Stealth 12-
3	Spell Research 13-
2	PS: Wizard-for-hire 11-
9	Magic Skill (INT-based) 16-
6	+2 with Wizard Spells
2	WF: Blades, Thrown Knives, Axes, and Darts
1	LS: Ancient Dikeeny (basic conversation)
2	AK: Coasts of Talorne 11-
1	AK: City of Westgate 8-
3	Scholar
2	1) KS: Arcane Lore (INT-based) (3 Active Points) 13-
1	2) KS: Wizards Guild Traditions and Laws (2 Active Points) 11-
1	3) KS: Enchanted Items (2 Active Points) 11-
1	4) KS: Myths and Legends (2 Active Points) 11-
1	5) KS: Magical Creatures (2 Active Points) 11-

Skills Cost: 49

 

Cost	Perk
3	Member of Wizards Guild

Perks Cost: 3

 

Cost	Talent
6	Combat Luck (3 PD/3 ED)

Talents Cost: 6

 

 

Total Character Cost: 150

 

Val	Disadvantages
15	Psychological Limitation: Oath of Fealty to High Wizard Marius, Lord of Westgate (Very Common; Moderate)
10	Psychological Limitation: Adventurous (Common; Moderate)
10	Reputation: Wizard of Westgate 11-
10	Hunted: Watched by Wizards of Westgate 8- (Mo Pow; Watching; Extensive Non-Combat Influence)
15	Hunted: Gragle the Ogre (slaver) 8- (As Pow; Harshly Punish; Extensive Non-Combat Influence)
10	Rivalry: Professional (Jarrod Hellspine, High Wizard of the Point; Rival is More Powerful; Seek to Outdo, Embarrass, or Humiliate Rival; Rival Aware of Rivalry)
5	Distinctive Features: Magical Aura (Not Concealable; Noticed and Recognizable; Detectable Only By Unusual Senses)
0	Normal Characteristic Maxima

Disadvantage Points: 75

 

Base Points: 75

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

[AnotherSkip]

Okies now then , I m gonna point out a few things:

 

1. for Years i resisted the Combat Mage, finally the Gm started throwing things (or we ran into) things that required that.

Prior to the CSL's versatility I was using Nightvision on everyone in the group ( okies we have 0 night penalties and they have -4 to see us, good luck to them _WE_ have stealth), Healing (under 4th) and Precog(the Gm had an exception to the VPP rules I won't go into).

2. I Don't switch in combat typically. I have a broad enough character (weighing in at 200 +points w/a 14-roll to change a 22-24 point VPP, 75+75+XP) who is definately _not_ a wuss that I can stand up one on one with 50 point orcs and expect to win w/out the VPP.

3. What you do or do not typically allow does not really enter into it. I agree that some combo's can be exploitative, but then again i feel the Combat Mage was fair because the GM had us being opposed by 3000 Beastiary Zombies (and my VPP could not be used directly against them....for a SFX reason....)

Also any Player worth his salt will not abuse a VPP lest the Gm build Clones.....

4. i easily use 20+ different spells a night probably 10 of those are new for that night. No MP can keep pace with that. Even adding 5 spells per session I _might_ be able to do half of what i want to do but then again my spells are not my only resource, heck I got 15 Xp last session(which you would have me place in spells) I saved 6, bought up a few skills and a whomping huge contact

5. Mp's are good for high stuff, don't get me wrong I use them frequently too, but for a real generalist (my preference) _nothing_ beats a VPP. I use Aids, Heals, Moves, TK, sure they are all low, and not very effective (Till you megascale Teleport)but a good package of choices will allow you to do more than ever before. Esp with the new "critical strikes " options(upgrading from 1 1/2 to 2d killing for only five points? oh Yeaaaaaaaaahhhhh!!!)

6. Let's run over Skills shall we? to control a 30 point MP with at best 15 Spells you need 0 to change but still need to cast it at -3 to your skill roll to actually get the spell off I only need to cast at a -2 (admitedly it is only at 24 AC but still I can fine tune that a lot more than you can) so I have 24 Real +6 control cost + infinite spell selection you have 15 "Pool"+ 15 Spells, need one more Skill level in the MSR than I do and are kinda stuck.

So you buy more spells... While i can buy all sorts of other things and be More ready than you are for the next adventure. Also Your spells will sooner or later Overlap( Do i go with the Killing, the Normal Explosion or the NND?, is this a Force field, Damage Resistance or Force Wall day ?).

 

And most likely you are "buying" more Spells _after_ the adventure. Uhmmm fat lot of good that does you, when you are facing a Flame Atronach and your Fireball just gets Absorbed......

While my IceBolt does double damage, because i had everyone defend me while i switched stuff around.....

[Killer Shrike]

Hmm....you are taking a lot of circumstances which are true to your campaign and blanketing them outside of their scope.

 

1) How were you granting Nightvision to other? Nightvision UBO Simultaneously at Range x4 Targets, or some other method? Was this not occupying your entire pool? Was Nightvision an uncommon commodity in a Fantasy setting (where many races possess it or a variant innately)?

 

2) By not switching in combat, you have to admit that this is a significant loss of the touted flexibility of a VPP. An instant speed MPP is much more reliable and tactically oriented than an out-of-combat speed VPP.

 

4 a) New slots: definitely the strength of the VPP option, but I really dont see a huge amount of difference in having lots of 22 AP powers. You reach a point where the difference btwn 1 spell and another is negligible. At a certain point fewer bigger powers will be more efficient. Or even just heavy use of Variable Advantage and/or Variable SFX for a few weenie power replicators.

 

4 15 experience in one session? Well, ok then. Thats 3 times more than the most that Ive ever given out or seen given out for a single session, but Ill assume that it was a lump sum for many sessions of play.

 

5) Many GMs are resistant to Megascale movement and dont allow it bcs it is very open to abuse. That aside, you can still do all of those things with MP slots. You dont need 15 ways of doing any particular thing; you only need 1 good way.

 

6a) You are assuming that the slots in the MPP or the MPP itself have RSR. By default they do not; if they do then there are even more points to play with, so either more powerful slots or more slots. I would opt not to have a skill roll, and go for reliability.

 

6b) Are you familiar with the Advantages "Variable Advantage" and "Variable SFX"?

 

6c) Pick a defense and make it a good one. It cant be Armor or DR bcs its in a MPP, FW is limited in its usefulness, so ergo, FF.

 

 

Also, what controls does your GM have in place to prevent endless casting? Any? And how open is the VPP? Can you just put anyspell you want in it, or do you have to research these spells, or learn them in some fashion?

[AnotherSkip]

1. yup on the Nightvison Question, About half of it was occupado, remember, that -1 in limitations was applying to both the control and the individual power, once it is up it is up so I just needed a few moments to get it in gear.. I also for many combats had Healing "up" to prevent loss of life. Also if you don't mind occupying the entire pool, linking multible AVLD attacks works wonders. Nightvision is an uncommon power especially against the people we were facing. (humans are not typically blessed with Nightvision, Orcs OTOH...)

 

2. Any Mage worth his salt should plan ahead, as far ahead as possible(and with Precog that is _very_ far). Another thing to do is to Aid your people with long term Aids. Tactically I have never had a problem with, say, a 10 point switch in the middle of combat. I usually make do with what I have (often to surprising success) by getting a grab bag of lower powers (5" Superleap, +1/2HKA Adder/+10 STR, +2 CV's etc...) TK Being my bane, but even then still useful. Usually my character buffs my allies rather than "Fireball, Fireball, Fireball...."

4A) unfortuneatly with the "Varible X" abilities you are cutting off your own nose, with a 60 point active cap (for instance) to get varibility you only have varibility with 40 or so points IIRC. if it costs a quarter you hit 4d6 with a 25 point MP (as a minor example) I'm still knocking out 5d6

4B a MAJOR sucess after 8 weeks of planning and skirmishing (destroying 2000 out of 3000 Undead and saving 500+ Villiagers, when the intial Precog was "every villager dies, becomes Zombies and marches on to attack our Lands, making them 3800 strong...")

5) Agreed on the resistance, in fact im resistant to it, but the need was pretty strong. the Gm did it or dramatic reasons

6) you are tying up double the Advantage while I would not be, you should have 2 attack powers, one at "max Strength" and one with "varibility", the varibility will allways be less, and by default less desireable.

I believe that any disads on the main part of a pool ( of any type) apply to all of the "slots" IIRC, if not what makes you so sure the Gm won't require those on the slots anyways?

 

Also in MP's construction Disad's are less useful pointswise, you eventually reach a point of no return. With a VPP that is much less ikely the case encouraging me to come up with interesting disads......

[rayoman]

For all of you that allow VPPs and MPs for Mages, I have a question.

 

Do you allow warriors to take VPPs or MPs to simulate Martial Manuevers or fantastic fighting abilities?

 

If the answer is no then why do you allow Mages to use them? Does this seem fair?

[OddHat]

Originally posted by rayoman

For all of you that allow VPPs and MPs for Mages, I have a question.

 

Do you allow warriors to take VPPs or MPs to simulate Martial Manuevers or fantastic fighting abilities?

 

Yes, of course. Why wouldn't you?

 

Originally posted by rayoman

If the answer is no then why do you allow Mages to use them? Does this seem fair?

 

Life is unfair.