Should FH wizards use VPPs?

[tetsujin28]

The point being: they're not worth the trouble. If I really want to use BESM or Pendragon magic, it's best to play those games and play to their strong points. Hero's strong point has never been spontaneity, but rather its intellectual rigour.

[AnotherSkip]

Whilist i agree with the opinion the anecdotal information is relatively worthless. The therory expressed by Tetsujin28 that the Frameworks are too powerful just points out how problematic STR is in a fantasy campaign. if frameworks are too powerful (and keeping in mind that the BBB espoused the VPP for certain kinds of magic!) then STR really needs to be adjusted in some fashion. And these adjustments and denials then bring to light that possibly HERO isn't truly suited to every genre!

There are some things however that are useful in moderation. a 60 point "Cosmic" VPP on a 150 point Heroic character is a problem. a 15 point limited "non-cosmic" VPP on a 150 point Heroic Character is not terribly dangerous. Especially if what he was doing could be found through other sources of magic and equipment.

 

as for the statement about Looking to magic and Magic items first. This happens quite frequently in many games and is as likely to happen in pointed out spells as frameworks. Even in a campaign where there is magic items to be found this can happen.

[tetsujin28]

Originally posted by GamePhil

Which would be an indicator that by comparison to these other games, FH mages are less flexible. Which further means that to create a new magic system which is as flexible as these other systems, VPP's or other Power Frameworks will be necessary. So it certainly has uses for areas outside of conversion, such as the minor magic pool that Michael originally asked about.

This is just a facile rebuttal that misses the point. If I were to try to create a fireball in Pendragon, the GM would have every right to look at me as if I were out of my mind. Does that mean that the Pendragon magic system is "inflexible"? Hardly. It simply means that its magic system is better at some things (Arthurian-style magic) than others (D&D-style magic). Likewise, Hero is better at a "these are the rules" style of magic than an "anything goes", Amber style.

 

Trying to make Hero like BESM or Pendragon is as bad as trying to make those two games like Hero. They're different beasts.

[AnotherSkip]

Well aside from the fact you are kind of missing the point look on this thread http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=6777

 

you will notice two characters posted by me.

the Druid character was the sole party "magician" for over two years. He was constantly reviled for his lack of ability to do anything killing wise, (after all 24 points is not even a 5d6 EB!!!) while the other characters were keeping "kill counts" well into the double digits i was surprised when i managed to kill the tied up (and damaged to half body) enemy mage prisoner (he Mentally attacked a friend i was in a mind link with while I was in the other room). I was pretty proud of the fact that after a year and a half i had actually managed to kill _SOMETHING_!!!!! ( later i got arrested, tried, branded on the face had my tounge and thumbs removed and was sentenced to death for this as well as a few other crimes.

 

and it was with a sword of all things (I had mindlink up as well as a detect magic spell looking for treasure).

 

the forty or so points could have been in Combat effective stuff and i would have been much better off with say a 4-6d6 BBB Single healing spell!!!!

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by tetsujin28

This is just a facile rebuttal that misses the point. If I were to try to create a fireball in Pendragon, the GM would have every right to look at me as if I were out of my mind. Does that mean that the Pendragon magic system is "inflexible"? Hardly. It simply means that its magic system is better at some things (Arthurian-style magic) than others (D&D-style magic). Likewise, Hero is better at a "these are the rules" style of magic than an "anything goes", Amber style.

 

Facile: Done or achieved with little effort or difficulty; easy. Working, acting, or speaking with effortless ease and fluency.

 

Why, thank you. I'll just assume you meant one of those definitions.

 

I never said that any of these systems were inflexible. I said that FH mages were, or at least could be. Subtle difference, but very important. The system can do anything, but a given mage can be very restricted by, for example, requiring each spell be purchased. If that's good for you, great, if it's not, then there is no reason not to allow a bit more of the actual *rules* into the game. It certainly wasn't good for a number of people I've met that didn't care for the relative "weakness" (in quotes due to my general disagreement) of mages and moved to other systems (anecdotal evidence only brought as a counterexample, not as proof of "correctness").

 

I also said that if you want to translate a magic system over and need to use a VPP, then it is likely that other magic systems may need to use such a construct. And, since I would prefer to play and run HERO over any system I am familiar with, I see no reason to chuck it all just because I need to use a VPP.

 

I prefer HERO. I can do these things you are indicating in HERO. Thus, while you may be unwilling (note: not unable, just unwilling, I'm not being insulting) to do so, I'm perfectly happy to, especially with the wealth of material there is to draw on to save me work.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

if frameworks are too powerful (and keeping in mind that the BBB espoused the VPP for certain kinds of magic!) then STR really needs to be adjusted in some fashion.

 

Absolutely true. Which is why I don't adjust any of them. They tend to have the ability to balance each other out, in my experience. If I removed one, I'd have to adjust the other. So I'll allow just about anything.

 

Hey, it's worked so far.

[tetsujin28]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

Whilist i agree with the opinion the anecdotal information is relatively worthless. The therory expressed by Tetsujin28 that the Frameworks are too powerful just points out how problematic STR is in a fantasy campaign. if frameworks are too powerful (and keeping in mind that the BBB espoused the VPP for certain kinds of magic!) then STR really needs to be adjusted in some fashion. And these adjustments and denials then bring to light that possibly HERO isn't truly suited to every genre!

Agreed. I don't think Hero works for every genre. I think it's especially poorly suited for horror, frex. And STR has been unbalanced from the get-go.

[tetsujin28]

Originally posted by GamePhil

Facile: Done or achieved with little effort or difficulty; easy. Working, acting, or speaking with effortless ease and fluency.

 

Why, thank you. I'll just assume you meant one of those definitions.

"specious, superficial...lacking sincerity or depth"

[RadeFox]

My GM and I (soon to be GM again), recently decided to pretty much make STR and INT cost 2 pts per 1 pt gained to mostly even out the Statistics imbalances. Once done, I made things flow a lot smoother, and really went a looong way to helping me keep Hero system as my system of choice.

 

Dont take our words for it! Try it now, for yourself in your next game, and see!

[tetsujin28]

Not to get too off-track, but for my next campaign I was going to "fold" STR, CON, and BODY into one stat costing 6 pts., and INT and EGO into another costing 3, doing away with COM entirely. I've also eliminated SPD.

[AnotherSkip]

Okies what are ya doing?

Playing V&V?

D&D Compendium?

Something else?

 

are ya dropping some figureds?

[PhilFleischmann]

I realize as I read these posts that you can't really talk about VPPs as if they were one thing. A "cosmic" VPP is totally different in terms of the way it works, balance, and impact on the game, than one that can only be changed after hours of spellbook study/meditation/prayer/work in the alchemy lab. Likewise a mimic pool is a totally different animal than a single "flexible spell" whose many (or few) applications are best simulated by a VPP.

 

These should almost be treated like different framworks when deciding whether they should be allowed in any particular game or genre.

 

There is also the danger of mistaking problems with the content of a power framework (the actual powers which may be unbalanced or abusive) as opposed to the framwork itself.

[tetsujin28]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

Okies what are ya doing?

Playing V&V?

D&D Compendium?

Something else?

 

are ya dropping some figureds?

It's just a thing I'd be doing with any Hero games I ran. The time is long past when 13-stat games were state of the art. So I combined STR, CON, and BODY into one stat, BODY, costing 6 points, and EGO and INT into one stat, MIND, costing 3 points. Comeliness is eliminated, PRE and DEX are left alone. The only figured I was planning on dropping was SPD. For the Exalted game, I would add Essence (which would be MIND x 2, 1/2 per additional point.

 

I had been thinking of doing away with STUN, as well, but I haven't gotten around to it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by tetsujin28

So I combined STR, CON, and BODY into one stat, BODY, costing 6 points, and EGO and INT into one stat, MIND, costing 3 points.

 

YMMV. Personally, I like the ability to have a tough hero who's not necessarily all that strong, a strong character who may not have a high BOD, a smart character with limited willpower (or vice versa), etc. I think Hero does a great job of segregating these abilities to allow customization. Merging them takes out a lot of that customization.

 

May as well merge EB's and RKA's/martial arts, hand attacks and HKA's while you're at it. No sense them looking any different - they're all ways to do damage at range/in HTH.

[Killer Shrike]

Originally posted by PhilFleischmann

I realize as I read these posts that you can't really talk about VPPs as if they were one thing. A "cosmic" VPP is totally different in terms of the way it works, balance, and impact on the game, than one that can only be changed after hours of spellbook study/meditation/prayer/work in the alchemy lab. Likewise a mimic pool is a totally different animal than a single "flexible spell" whose many (or few) applications are best simulated by a VPP.

 

These should almost be treated like different framworks when deciding whether they should be allowed in any particular game or genre.

 

There is also the danger of mistaking problems with the content of a power framework (the actual powers which may be unbalanced or abusive) as opposed to the framwork itself.

{nods affirmatively, then gets back to work on Fantasy HERO material }

[tetsujin28]

In an effort not to hijack this thread, my reply has been moved here.

[John Desmarais]

Originally posted by tetsujin28

However, I still feel that VPPs are just too big a can of worms in FH. I called up 7 friends last night, all with from 3-20 years of experience with Hero (the mean being 10). I asked them if they would allow VPPs if they were running a fantasy campaign, and five of them gave responses ranging from "Are you crazy?" to just "No." The other three answered that they would allow them only if they (the GM) created all the effects, and that they weren't up to doing that much additional work.

 

By way of contrast - I could call the same number of folks that I have gamed with, with similar or greater years of experience,ask the same question, and get the response "We do it all the time." Everyone's mileage varies.

 

Personally, I have found VPPs to be a relatively ellegant method of allowing spellcasters to "know" a large number of spells, but only being able to uses a subset of them at any given time - which is the way I want spellcaster to work in my games - very Vancian.

 

I have never had a problem caused by using VPPs. The only severe caveats I place on them is that (1) all effects within the pool must be chosen from a pre-written list, and (2) pools may not be changed in combat time (don't like to have games delayed while people fiddle with their pool).

 

Sometime I work from spell lists that I have pregenerated for the campaign, sometime I let the players do it. In my current game I am using the forthcoming Fantasy Hero Grimoire as a source of pregenerated spell-lists (playtesting).

 

I've seen several responses in this thread that indicate that some GMs would think that allowing the players to create the spells is a horrifying idea. My response to that is: if you don't trust yout players, why are you playing with them?

 

John Desmarais

.

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by John Desmarais

I've seen several responses in this thread that indicate that some GMs would think that allowing the players to create the spells is a horrifying idea. My response to that is: if you don't trust yout players, why are you playing with them?

 

 

.

 

Often, players don't have the full feel of what's appropriate for a particular campaign setting (e.g., FH set in the world of Conan, people aren't whipping up fireballs), or they don't have the intimate familiarity the Hero system that the GM does, and consequently for many it makes sense to not have the players make spells. Obviously there are exceptions to this.

[tetsujin28]

Originally posted by slaughterj

Often, players don't have the full feel of what's appropriate for a particular campaign setting (e.g., FH set in the world of Conan, people aren't whipping up fireballs), or they don't have the intimate familiarity the Hero system that the GM does, and consequently for many it makes sense to not have the players make spells. Obviously there are exceptions to this.

Agreed. FH requires a ridiculous amount of knowledge about Hero, and most players are not willing to spend that much time on things.

[Lord Mhoram]

Originally posted by slaughterj

Often, players don't have the full feel of what's appropriate for a particular campaign setting (e.g., FH set in the world of Conan, people aren't whipping up fireballs)

 

This is my reason. I am setting up an FH game (my last one ran almost 9 years, and my players want more fantasy), and I have a very precies magic system. I borrow a number of concepts from the rolemaster magic system (three realms, a type of magic that predates the realms, ect). I have very specific effects that each kind of magic can do- and some of it is by feel. I have about 200 sample spells build, and am about 1/3 done from where I want to be for the game to start. With that as a base, I'd let my players build spells, I would just warn them that I may adjust details to fit my magic system before they could use them.

 

As for the base question my first FH game had no frameworks, and I started it off with a fairly high point level 100+100. I want more versitily with characters, so I am doing via frameworks - magic uses multipowers, and I am either going to use multipowers or ECs for "non powered powers" and weapon tricks.

[AnotherSkip]

Originally posted by tetsujin28

Agreed. FH requires a ridiculous amount of knowledge about Hero, and most players are not willing to spend that much time on things.

 

actually HERO can feel like it requires a good deal of dedication.

 

However having played underneath a GM who:

1. 90% of the time does not read Emails, Much less respond to them.

2. Doesn't even recall what happened last session more often than not.

3. Revises the universes rules upon a whim.

4. has the character sheets in his posession almost all of the time and never even looks at what people have regarding anything....

5. prepared? For what?

 

yes he does have reasons for his actions but it gets annoying...

 

 

compared to My FH GM who does do all of the above.

 

keep in mind this is in WereWolf the Apocalypse in case it matters and actually may have had more experience playing WW than he has.

 

the point is though that playing a game with continuity but without dedication is like having an email address and giving it to everyone sending alot of Emails and never checking the inbox.

 

It's pretty sad when im more dedicated to the game than the Gm is.

[John Desmarais]

Originally posted by slaughterj

Often, players don't have the full feel of what's appropriate for a particular campaign setting (e.g., FH set in the world of Conan, people aren't whipping up fireballs), or they don't have the intimate familiarity the Hero system that the GM does, and consequently for many it makes sense to not have the players make spells. Obviously there are exceptions to this.

 

And? If a player whips up a spell write up that doesn't fit in your campaign then you simple tell him such. Problem solved (unless said player throws a tantrum like a six year old).

 

As for intimate familiarty with the rules - I generally find that players with a marginal grasp of the rules have an easier time with FH spells than they do with super powers. FH magic, for me at least, usually has a very standard set of modifiers that will be applied to all spells to insure a certain "mechanical feel". Player starts with spell concept, selects the appropriate Hero power(s), applies standard modifers, spell done.

 

Again, I'm hearing what sounds like much ado about nonthing.

 

John D.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by John Desmarais

And? If a player whips up a spell write up that doesn't fit in your campaign then you simple tell him such. Problem solved (unless said player throws a tantrum like a six year old).

 

This depends on how often it happens. How many spells does a player build and have rejected because the GM has done a poor job summarizing how magic will work in his campaign before the "Screw it" factor kicks in?

 

Same thinbg for building and revising characters if the GM is less than clear about concerns and desired changes.

 

Good communication is essential in Hero to get all the players and the GM on the same page about how things work, how common some items may be in the campaign world, etc.

[AnotherSkip]

actually some of these things are just as applicable to _any_ system as to HERO.

 

Good communication (which does not allways occur) is a must when roleplaying, especially concerning the mechanics.

[Hugh Neilson]

Originally posted by AnotherSkip

actually some of these things are just as applicable to _any_ system as to HERO.

 

Good communication (which does not allways occur) is a must when roleplaying, especially concerning the mechanics.

 

Yes and no. I find Hero requires more communication because the ground rules vary with the campaign and the GM. In many other systems, it's only variances from the rulebook that need to be addressed, but the extra flexibility of Hero means a lot more is open (eg. how many DC and how much DEF is appropriate versus defined spells, weapons and armor set the numbers).