Should FH wizards use VPPs?

[Blue Jogger]

Originally posted by rayoman

Do you allow warriors to take VPPs or MPs to simulate Martial Manuevers or fantastic fighting abilities?

 

In a way, they already do. I've seen an Half-Orge with exceptional strength (30) and its fantastic fighting ability of slaying a minor demon that the magic characters (a mage and a cleric) were helpless against. The spells were low level (20 active) and the Half-Orge had his amazing 2D6 Great Sword (4D6 w/STR or 60 active). That plus his combat levels (which went into OCV) and his massively heavy armor (which is why he didn't worry about DCV) made him unstoppable.

 

Especially with FREd, a fighter can have many fantastic fighting abilities such as Two-Hand Weapon Fighting. That with bonuses to Sweep and you can wade into a crowd with fantastic ability.

 

There's also different manuevers for Elfs with Autofire.

 

But there's nothing wrong with the classic magical sword done with a Multipower.

 

Edit: Most Fantasy Hero games I've seen, all players had some magic or fantastic ability.

[AnotherSkip]

there is a somewhat viable argument thath STR is a Multipower and Martial arts are Multipowers with "frozen" slots.

 

besides Martial artists get a break because they can have 18 manuvers and 20 weapons and only buy 3 point levels to do it all.

baby.

 

i cant buy anything less than a 5 point level in a multipower

[Mr. Negative]

On the subtopic of making VPPs viable in low fantasy, I'd like to point out two things that others may or may not have noticed.

 

First, looking at a VPP like the one listed by sbarron above (fantastic list of spells by the way) should make something clear. While these spells are certainly not impressive in a High Magic setting, in a low fantasy or swords and sorcery setting, this wizard is very impressive. He has defenses, life support, movement powers, illusions...all kinds of useful stuff that the fighters and rogues don't have. All for 20 points! This wizard is a fantastic "Swiss Army Knife" character, and can have even more versality just by designing more spells. Given that the FH mages generally are written up with 40 points in spells, this guy could have a 1d6+1 killing attack, a 4d6 Energy Blast, etc...

 

If there is actually very low magic, then the magic this wizard is capable of will be pretty useful. It may not be "ZAP! He's dead!" useful, but I certainly wouldn't mind having him around.

 

Secondly, I think that low fantasy and "low powered" fantasy are getting mixed up a bit. It is quite possible to have 250+ point Low Fantasy characters (Conan, etc) and 150 point High Fantasy Characters. It is, admittedly, VERY DIFFICULT (probably impossible) to simulate the powerful spells of High Fantasy with low points total wizards using standard VPPs. The Active Point Totals will be a wash. However, that's not necessarily a flaw of the idea. I myself like it.

 

I don't look at a 150 point wizard and see him doing the standard 3rd level D&D wizard stuff (fireball, etc.) I see him instead as a beginning wizard, or an accomplished wizard of not much raw power. The wizard doesn't conceptually have to compete with the warrior in terms of sheer killyness. That may be the style you want in your game, where ultimately, both characters toss out 8 DCs of Killing damage to their foes. That's a valid choice, and it works for many groups. The multipower (or the free points systems in FH ) are probably the way to go for that.

 

If however, you see the wizard as being more capable of accomplishing things that cannot be brought about without magic, even if those things aren't themselves overtly powerful, that's another interesting conception for sorcery. I think too many players are seduced into thinking "how many points of damage can my character do?" instead of "what can my character accomplish?"

 

On the other hand, if you really want to simulate particular, specific spell effects from novels or other games, the active points are quite often going to be too high to make normal VPPs feasible.

 

If that isn't a problem for your conception, the VPP can really work. Looking at the "Wizard" Package deal, if you drop the 40 points of spells, you have a package that costs 41 points (even though you don't really need such a stellar spell roll, since the previously mentioned one doesn't require a skill roll to change). Spend 49 points on "wizardly" stats like those of Valerius the harper (also in the book). You now have 60 points left over for a 150 point character. Give him a 25 point VPP pool (as sbarron's above, with a 25 point control cost) and you still have an additional 10 points to customize the character. Using Sbarron's pool as a template, this wizard could have a 5d6 EB, a 1.5d6 RKA, 15 STR TK, 10 PD/10 ED Force Field, and a 10"+ teleport. Heck, he could even have 10PD/10 ED and +5d6 HA at the same time! Tell me that's not effective!

 

(If you want a little more "flavor" give the mage both No Skill Roll and No Time Required and balance this with Variable Limitations -1. This will mean every spell has to have -2 in total limitations, so you will get lots of Incantations, Gestures, Foci, Side Effects, Skill Rolls, etc. The "cosmic" nature of the pool, however, will mean that a wizard with such a pool can unlock a door one minute, and cook dinner the next, then cook an ork shortly thereafter.)

 

My long-winded point is that, while YOUR magic system may indeed not work in a VPP structure, there are a great deal of flexible, potent, interesting systems that do. The fact that a VPP doesn't allow you to create the spell that you are envisioning doesn't make VPPs a bad idea. Even if they aren't what you were intending, you might be suprised at how interesting VPP magic systems are. They don't have the same type of magic that many players are used to (D&D), but that's both a hindrance and a benefit. I've had more than a few players react with suprise and delight when "getting" the magic that a VPP system produces.

[tetsujin28]

Not to be mean, but abso-frickin'-lutely NOT. I've run fantasy Hero since before there was Fantasy Hero, and nothing causes more problems than VPPs. It's not Champions, so just live with it.

[Mr. Negative]

Originally posted by tetsujin28

Not to be mean, but abso-frickin'-lutely NOT. I've run fantasy Hero since before there was Fantasy Hero, and nothing causes more problems than VPPs. It's not Champions, so just live with it.

 

Evidently I was wrong. Never mind what I said about the potential benefits of trying VPP in FH. Variable Power Pools are not allowed in Fantasy Hero, only in Champions. Thank you for clearing that up.

[Markdoc]

>>For all of you that allow VPPs and MPs for Mages, I have a question.

Do you allow warriors to take VPPs or MPs to simulate Martial Manuevers or fantastic fighting abilities?<<<

 

Oh, absolutely. In fact, it was fighters clamouring for multipowers who persuaded me to try them on the game in the first place.

 

Secondly, on the VPP vs Multipower debate, I have both in my games. There is no doubt that the MP gives more bang for the buck and lets you toss out bigger spells.

 

Equally however, my experience has shown prety clearly that VPPs give the mage more flexibility: most of the debate here has focussed on combat. But it's OUT of combat where the VPP shines and a clever adept (my term for VPP-using mages) can spring some nasty surprises on the MP-using mage with a little foresight.

 

VPPs can be a problem if you rely on cunning traps and so on. A smart player with a little time can often come up with a way around them. MPs are more of a problem in combat heavy games, where they promote the "mage as heavy weapons system" approach. If you have balanced approach they both give you problems

 

cheers, Mark

[Michael Hopcroft]

Originally posted by tetsujin28

Not to be mean, but abso-frickin'-lutely NOT. I've run fantasy Hero since before there was Fantasy Hero, and nothing causes more problems than VPPs. It's not Champions, so just live with it.

 

I guess I should be kicked off the board for even brining it up then. Or maybe I should just leave and never come back.

 

How about this. If anyone tells me in private messaging that they are sick and tired of my ideas and want me to leave, I'll leave and never come back. If I can be this offenseive, I obviously don't belong here.

[Damon_Dusk]

I guess I should be kicked off the board for even brining it up then. Or maybe I should just leave and never come back.

 

How about this. If anyone tells me in private messaging that they are sick and tired of my ideas and want me to leave, I'll leave and never come back. If I can be this offenseive, I obviously don't belong here.

 

Well, even though I don't have a lot of posts to my name, I for one am interested in this thread as well as many others. I wouldn't worry about one person out of the many who have posted here and who are interested in this discussion. I'm getting a lot of good ideas from this thread for when I work on my own magic system, so keep 'em coming!

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Blue Jogger

Edit: Most Fantasy Hero games I've seen, all players had some magic or fantastic ability.

 

Interesting, in a large number of FH games I've played in or run, NONE of the players had magic or fantastic ability

[slaughterj]

Originally posted by Mr. Negative

Evidently I was wrong. Never mind what I said about the potential benefits of trying VPP in FH. Variable Power Pools are not allowed in Fantasy Hero, only in Champions. Thank you for clearing that up.

 

See, now you know

 

VPPs can be useful for certain FH campaigns. However, the nature of the campaign will dictate which method is the best to use to emulate spells, e.g., VPP, MP, EC, or point-buy. VPPs have the additional issue beyond the others in that it needs to be determined what can be cast at whim vs. what needs to be learned in order to be able to cast - the other methods have this controlled by the requirement of points to be spent. Without a lot of front-work, VPPs could be troublesome. Also, VPPs can be more difficult for a GM to handle, unless the available spells are pre-determined, else someone could whip up a spell on the fly that will throw a major kink into a game session.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by tetsujin28

Not to be mean, but abso-frickin'-lutely NOT. I've run fantasy Hero since before there was Fantasy Hero, and nothing causes more problems than VPPs. It's not Champions, so just live with it.

 

That's one opinion. It's certainly not mine. VPP's when properly controlled by a competent gamemaster can add help support a variety of flavors of magic, especially ones where the spells can be modified fairly easily. For example, 2nd and 3rd Editions of D&D have built in the ability to greatly modify the spells to the point that a VPP becomes attractive (especially 2nd, where the modifications were done by spells rather than Feats).

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by rayoman

Do you allow warriors to take VPPs or MPs to simulate Martial Manuevers or fantastic fighting abilities?

 

Warriors get free equipment, the cost break of STR and CON, and the inexpensive Martial Arts Maneuvers. None of these are accessible by the typical mage conception. I don't see any unfairness even if I didn't allow them to also have access to Power Frameworks.

 

However, yes, if a warrior needed abilities that could not be simulated by some combination of these things, I would certainly allow appropriate Power Frameworks to deal with it.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by Mr. Negative

Evidently I was wrong. Never mind what I said about the potential benefits of trying VPP in FH. Variable Power Pools are not allowed in Fantasy Hero, only in Champions. Thank you for clearing that up.

 

Hmm, in case you weren't being ironic: this is no longer the case. The current edition of FH advises against it for many games, but does not actually disallow it.

[tetsujin28]

Originally posted by Michael Hopcroft

I guess I should be kicked off the board for even brining it up then. Or maybe I should just leave and never come back.

 

How about this. If anyone tells me in private messaging that they are sick and tired of my ideas and want me to leave, I'll leave and never come back. If I can be this offenseive, I obviously don't belong here.

I don't remember you saying anything in the least bit offensive. You asked for opinions, and many people have voiced theirs. There's nothing wrong with that - that's what game-related message boards are for. Remember that gamers tend to be an opinionated and contentious lot to begin with, especially on a subject like VPPs, which have been the subject of more discussion than nearly anything else since they came out in Champions II. (The only thing I can think of that's caused nearly as many arguments is the cheap cost of STR.) Hero players are alot like Talmudic scholars - we gain pleasure from the minutiae of the rules. Also like Talmudic scholars, we can get into some pretty heated arguments. But in the end, all that argument is over something we love, to whit, the Hero system.

 

My opinion on VPPs in Fantasy Hero is that they're not worth the trouble they cause, in terms of added complexity, game balance issues, and time wasted at the table. If you have players who are willing to devote lots of time to pre-prepared lists of spells for every occasion, then it can work. But few players are willing to do this, and it just causes more headaches than its worth. I also feel that the VPP/MP mage, unless heavily restricted, becomes a game-busting "bag o' tricks", being able to add extremely useful abilities (Life Support, Change Environment, Desolid, &c.) either at a whim (VPP) or with the addition of hardly any points at all (MP with an ultra slot).

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by tetsujin28

If you have players who are willing to devote lots of time to pre-prepared lists of spells for every occasion, then it can work.

 

That isn't necessarily the case. A typical example, and the one Michael is going for I believe, is the "minor magic" pool, where the exact effects in game mechanics can be glossed over a bit (eg. say a Mending spell is a Transform, the exact dice isn't needed because it will do the job). Another possibility is having modified spells: you only have a relatively few spells, but you can change certain specifics of them. This would be a short list of basic effects, click into place the Advantage you want from another list, and throw the spell.

 

And so on. I as GM would usually be the one designing these.

 

But few players are willing to do this, and it just causes more headaches than its worth. I also feel that the VPP/MP mage, unless heavily restricted, becomes a game-busting "bag o' tricks", being able to add extremely useful abilities (Life Support, Change Environment, Desolid, &c.) either at a whim (VPP) or with the addition of hardly any points at all (MP with an ultra slot).

 

Just depends on how flexible you want a given mage to be. A lot of the time, the bag 'o tricks approach is very appropriate to a setting, and in my experience only rarely is imbalanced with the skill/equipment based characters. But there are some specific *players* I've had I would never allow one of these, because they'll bog down the game trying to get things out of that VPP that I have repeatedly told them are inappropriate for their special effect.

 

Still, the inflexibility of the old Fantasy HERO is one of the things that have gotten even HERO fans to turn to other systems for their fantasy fix. Part of the reason I like Power Frameworks.

[tetsujin28]

Originally posted by GamePhil

Another possibility is having modified spells: you only have a relatively few spells, but you can change certain specifics of them. This would be a short list of basic effects, click into place the Advantage you want from another list, and throw the spell.

Couldn't you replicate this by simply using the Variable advantage advantage?

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by tetsujin28

Couldn't you replicate this by simply using the Variable advantage advantage?

 

Possibly, but it again depends on specifics. For example, say I want a Flame Burst spell, and I want it to be able to be a 6d6 EB or a 4d6 Explosion or a 3d6 NND (defense is LS vs. Heat). This does not fit the normal Variable Advantage model because the base power is changing, and is more reasonable than a 6d6 EB with a +1 Variable Advantage.

 

It can be done. 6d6 EB, +1 Variable Advantage, Only Up To 30 Active Points (-1). But that seems a little odd when Power Frameworks exist, and this is only the most trivial example. If the character wants to be able to focus the blast into a Killing Attack, it becomes still more iffy, though of course a second Power can be purchased (should take a Limitation: No MPA, though, since it is just the same spell with a different usage).

[AnotherSkip]

Originally posted by tetsujin28

Not to be mean, but abso-frickin'-lutely NOT. I've run fantasy Hero since before there was Fantasy Hero, and nothing causes more problems than VPPs. It's not Champions, so just live with it.

That's nice .

 

now then not every Champions, Dark Champions, or Superpowered character has a framework. Sure they are nice especially for building characters that "forget' they have certain powers. But i just as easily built a 250 point 4th ed character with as without and now it is just as easy, especially since alot of the frameworks are better understood.

 

Also how does someone build a "game busting" power? They are all in the book right? Anything you can build in an MP or VPP you can point build just as easily if not easier.

unless you are doing some rather poor planning on the villians/NPC's part you should be prepared for the players to surprise you, VPP, MP, EC, or no. If you can't plan that well, write stories, the characters do what you tell them to, don't shoot holes in the plot, and you generally have less arguments.

 

Secondly if you don't want the big powers(Desolid, Precog, etc...) dont use big frameworks.

 

besides give the Villians Frameworks, the worst guy we ever faced one on one was an opposing wizard who had a VPP (he multiformed into a huge scarab beatle and tried to kill me while ignoring my friend thumping his armored hide).

[tetsujin28]

Notice what the first words in my post were: "Not to be mean." Nothing in my post was a personal attack on anyone. By "It's not Champions, so just live with it," I was drawing on many years of Hero experience (I co-wrote some of the powers that found their way into Champions II), and the fact that VPPs (and other power frameworks) were never designed to work in any setting other than Champions. It would appear that some members of this board have even thinner skins than most gamers. My opinion was asked, and I gave it. Based on my experience running Hero in a fantasy context for more than 20 years, my reply is still to not allow VPPs or MPs in a fantasy context. They're just too powerful.

 

Re: no power being able to be "game-busting". A power can easily be over-effective if it does too many things too well for too little cost, which is what power frameworks do in FH, especially VPPs and MPs with ultra slots. What especially happens is the D&D syndrome of skills being replaced by magic and magic items.

[Mordacius]

tetsujin28:

I don't agree with you about Power Frameworks, but I can understand most of where you're coming from about them being too effective. Not been my experience at all, but you're certainly entitled to feel differently.

 

This is the part that I find odd, though:

By "It's not Champions, so just live with it," I was drawing on many years of Hero experience (I co-wrote some of the powers that found their way into Champions II), and the fact that VPPs (and other power frameworks) were never designed to work in any setting other than Champions.

I don't see a difference in balance issues between those two genres. Why do VPPs work for you in one, and not the other?

[Korvar]

The thing I like about VPPs is limiting the "change points" condition to "several hours sat down with a book". So the mage has to choose ahead of time what spells to take, meaning their spell choice isn't always appropriate for the situation they face. Is there a suggested way of applying that to Multipowers?

 

A "cosmic" VPP or even a "skill roll to change" VPP is very flexible and powerful (and costs!), but even that can be suitable for certain High Fantasy - which can be close enough to Champions anyway.

[James Gillen]

Originally posted by GamePhil

Still, the inflexibility of the old Fantasy HERO is one of the things that have gotten even HERO fans to turn to other systems for their fantasy fix. Part of the reason I like Power Frameworks.

 

Which I think is a major factor here. Most people I've seen debate conversions of other fantasy systems have resorted to VPPs in order to convert the magic systems.

 

Personally, I'd define magic VPPs much like Gadget Pools in Champions- not a "pool of do anything you want", but a pool that covers a lot of miscellaneous capabilities that it is no longer cost efficient to represent with separate spells or Multipowers. That is, if you've spent so many points on Multipower slots that you might as well convert them to the Base Cost of a VPP, then that's the time to do it.

 

IMO, a beginning character shouldn't have a pool, and a beginning HERO player shouldn't have one until he's familiar enough with the system to know how it works. In story terms, most beginning mages know a few separate effects. By the time the character is skilled enough to channel effects at will (Rand in Wheel of Time, Willow in Buffy the Vampire Slayer, etc.) the character in game terms will have enough experience (and Experience Points) to make the transition to VPP worthwhile AND justified in terms of story background.

 

If VPPs seem too powerful, remember that they normally require an extra action and a Skill Roll to change over. For most fantasy (i.e. simulating D&D-type stuff) the 'Cosmic' Advantages shouldn't be allowed. Most casters can't simply make up spells on the fly; 'arcane' casters need to consult their books to change the VPP, meaning also that they are limited to the spells that they've actually researched- i.e. only those the GM allowed him to have or that he made up with Inventor/Spell Research (ultimately, the same). Clerics would only have those powers their god allowed, meaning that they're even more under GM control.

 

Basically, in HERO System, with great power comes great responsibility. The GM has more freedom to design the parameters of his game system than with any other rules, but that also means weighing how things would work without relying on some designers' notion of "game balance."

 

Hope this helps.

 

JG

[Talon]

I used VPPs for starting characters -- but they were heavily limited VPPs, where you had to get a KS for each spell you could do, and then use the KS if you wanted to improvise small variations to the spell. Beginning players were sheltered from the hazards of VPPs because they had to have writeups for every spell they had a KS for, and experienced players could use the KS to tweak the writeups if they wanted to.

[tetsujin28]

Originally posted by James Gillen

Most people I've seen debate conversions of other fantasy systems have resorted to VPPs in order to convert the magic systems.

JG

An excellent point. Whilst I don't see the base FH magic system as "inflexible", it's true that for some conversions there's no way around the VPP. As an example, my two favourite magic systems, that found in Pendragon and the dynamic sorcery power from Big Eyes Small Mouth, are both best represented by VPPs.

 

However, I still feel that VPPs are just too big a can of worms in FH. I called up 7 friends last night, all with from 3-20 years of experience with Hero (the mean being 10). I asked them if they would allow VPPs if they were running a fantasy campaign, and five of them gave responses ranging from "Are you crazy?" to just "No." The other three answered that they would allow them only if they (the GM) created all the effects, and that they weren't up to doing that much additional work.

[GamePhil]

Originally posted by tetsujin28

An excellent point. Whilst I don't see the base FH magic system as "inflexible", it's true that for some conversions there's no way around the VPP. As an example, my two favourite magic systems, that found in Pendragon and the dynamic sorcery power from Big Eyes Small Mouth, are both best represented by VPPs.

 

Which would be an indicator that by comparison to these other games, FH mages are less flexible. Which further means that to create a new magic system which is as flexible as these other systems, VPP's or other Power Frameworks will be necessary. So it certainly has uses for areas outside of conversion, such as the minor magic pool that Michael originally asked about.

 

However, I still feel that VPPs are just too big a can of worms in FH. I called up 7 friends last night, all with from 3-20 years of experience with Hero (the mean being 10). I asked them if they would allow VPPs if they were running a fantasy campaign, and five of them gave responses ranging from "Are you crazy?" to just "No." The other three answered that they would allow them only if they (the GM) created all the effects, and that they weren't up to doing that much additional work.

 

I have no idea of the point of this paragraph. It appears to be anecdotal evidence from your own gaming group to support your position. I could get a group of people of like years in the game who disagree, but what on earth would be the point? If having decades of Hero experience under one's belt meant anything, many of us would be in happy agreement about everything.