Michael Hopcroft Posted August 13, 2003 Report Share Posted August 13, 2003 Wizards in fantasy fiction are able to extend their lifespans 9without becoming liches) by hundreds of years. Elves never die unless killed, or unless they wil themselves to die out of ennui. And so forth. What are the practical effects of immortaloity on a campaign world? Can the same person rule a kingdom for hundreds of years as King Eternal? And how does that change the politics of that kingdom? If the Court Wizard has been serving the royal fmaility for hundreds of years, does he effectively become the government? How powerful can one get in a thousand years? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blue Jogger Posted August 13, 2003 Report Share Posted August 13, 2003 Extended lifespan might be seen as proof of Divine Right (or at least magical power) while aging quickly might be seen as proof of peasantry. Extended lifespans makes changes in Kings a big deal. If eight years seem like a long time to have someone in power, imagine eight hundred years. A sudden death of a several hundred year old King would cause massive chaos and panic ("Who will run the kingdom now?"). Politics might even change to accept that the King will live forever (especially after eight hundred years) and instead extreme long-term plans of gaining influence with the King. Long lived wizards and short-lived Kings can effective gain control of the government if patient enough. A young boy who will be King will easily believe an wise wizard who seems kind and helpful. How powerful one gets in a thousand years depends greatly on what power he can gain in those thousands years. Collecting magical items, gaining fear/respect of the people, learning certain skills (history, conversation, beurcatics, KS: politics, trading, PS: dipolmacy, etc.), remembering history that others have forgotten (and twisting it to your end). All of these play a factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Ciaramella Posted August 13, 2003 Report Share Posted August 13, 2003 Re: Immortality Originally posted by Michael Hopcroft What are the practical effects of immortality on a campaign world? Can the same person rule a kingdom for hundreds of years as King Eternal? And how does that change the politics of that kingdom? If the Court Wizard has been serving the royal fmaility for hundreds of years, does he effectively become the government? How powerful can one get in a thousand years? One could become immensely powerful I would assume... first a ruler would become an institution, the only ruler anyone alive would have known... then he would become a legend... then if he were to be there long enough, he would become tantamount to a diety in the eyes of his people and perhaps the world as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tkdguy Posted August 13, 2003 Report Share Posted August 13, 2003 If everyone in the kingdom is immortal, such as the elves, the society would either be very conservative or somewhat reactive. In the former case, everyone has his or her place in society and will not expect to change, barring events such as wars and accidents. On the other hand, there could be a relatively reactive society. I say relative because mortals would perceive the kingdom as stable, but the immortals will see a revolution take place every few centuries or so. "Dad has been king for 2000 years now, and what has he done for the kingdom all this time? It's time for a change in leadership!" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Korvar Posted August 13, 2003 Report Share Posted August 13, 2003 An aspect of the "800-year-old ruler" is that if they have kids at all, those kids are going to wait to inherit a long time. Which can have a variety of effects, depending. They might simply ignore the possibility of inheritance and go and carve out their own careers (such as ruling/conquering somewhere else, controlling a particular part of their paren'ts beaurocracy, or something entirely unrelated to the ruling business). They might decide to live a life of luxury. The second highest ranking person in the country, and no responsibilities, or apparrent chance of responsibilities! Party! They might decide to speed up the inheritance process... All of which can be plot or background hooks... Immortality will also have different effects in races that are naturally immortal, and those that aren't. Those that aren't will still have the drives and attitudes of a short-lived mortal, some of which might not work too well in an immortal. An immortal family of humans (assuming most humans are mortal) could increase in numbers enormously (having child after child after child for hundreds, or thousands, of years), for example. Races that have always been immortal (or just very long lived) will have developed societal mechanisms to cope with this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dbsousa Posted August 13, 2003 Report Share Posted August 13, 2003 A friend of mine ran a campaign in which the emperor was an immortal 12 year old boy. Cynical folk believed he was swapped out like a Menudo singer when he reached puberty, but those closer to the palace believed he was a dragon in human guise... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted August 14, 2003 Report Share Posted August 14, 2003 The effect of immortality was one of the first things I thought about when designing my game. It changes everything. Just imagine if Leonardo da Vinci was still around today, or Thomas Jefferson. Or Genghis Khan... The more sophisticated societies in my game have adapted in different ways to take account of the fact that the normal rules of inheritance are not going to apply when Dad doesn't kick off until his great-grandchildren are having babies. Also immortality does not equal immunity, so thousand year-old leaders are rare, but not unknown. Best advice? Tread carefully around someone who has managed to survive 1000 years in a largely hostile world. On the other hand, 1 1000 year old person might be revered as a god, but if you have many people getting up in the hundreds of years old range then what you probbaly get instead is "institutions" Of course in less sophisticated societies making it past 70 is grounds for congratulation, let alone 1000. And last of all, remember that immortality is a 5 point power and thus easily dispelled..... cheers, Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartman Posted August 14, 2003 Report Share Posted August 14, 2003 Originally posted by Markdoc Also immortality does not equal immunity, so thousand year-old leaders are rare, but not unknown. Best advice? Tread carefully around someone who has managed to survive 1000 years in a largely hostile world. This is actually an interesting point. We had an extensive discusion on this over at straightdope.com a couple of weeks ago. The statistics for the 20th century evidently work out like this. Once age and disease are eliminated the average person would live about 700 years before an accident or murder caught up with them. And virtually no one would make it past 2,000, unless they found a way to become immune to external causes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Markdoc Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 700 years? Possible, I suppose. I ran a mortality analysis using figures from Ethiopia, and came up with a MTD (mean time to death) of about 250 years. For example, in the absence of antibiotics, even small injuries can often be fatal. Magic substitutes for antibiotics in this case. In both cases they are effective, and not too rare, but you cannot be sure they will always be to hand. I used Ethiopia since it has the kind of patchy distribution of resources I imagine in a fantasy world: in other words, rich people can always have access to antibiotics/healing magic, people in the middle can normally get it it they really have to and the vast masses have little or no access. There are some interesting side effects of this to consider. Just to take one, death in childbirth is still a possibilty, so women with access to immortality magic migt be a little leery of accidental pregnancy. In the same vein, the whole idea of respect/attachment to the family/clan becomes a bit strained if you don't have to rely on it for ersatz immortality via your descendants but instead have to compete with them for the comfy seat... cheers,Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bartman Posted August 15, 2003 Report Share Posted August 15, 2003 Well I don't remember offhand if we excluded childbirth or not. But as I said we did exclude disease, which would include infections. So 250 years if you are immune to age only. 700 if you are imune ot disease and infection as well. Either way immortality is not quite the deal it may appear to be. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerennialRook Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 In the campaign I am building Goblins are immortal, though most goblins do not know (because they don't care). A goblin is born with all the pigment it will ever have, a pure black slimy thing. As it ages it slowly looses pigment until it becomes pure white. Beware the pure white goblin shaman. There is NO amount of luck that would let a goblin live long enough to be pure white, they live a fierce life. In adition to imortality they have an astronomical birthrate. A female goblin will bare 36-144 children a year, who will reach sexual maturity in just short of a year. The average female goblin bares a litter (3-12) of children on it's first birthday and 2/3 of all goblins are female. -Preston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RadeFox Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Rook, you're gonna needa a REAL solid reason why Goblins are not running the world, as it were. With a birthrate like that, and quick maturity rate (immortality aside), No other typical fantasy race would have any chance at all of being able to hold its own, let alone flourish in such a world. Goblins would over run every area they could reach, and have unlimited resources. They would never run out of soldier, miners, or tradesfolk. Granted, in only a year, they would not be very skilled, but 1,000 golbins with 6 months of training is more then a match for 1 adolescent from any other race. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris Goodwin Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Presumably because they're practically disposable. I'm assuming their death rate is very nearly as high as their birth rate, right? (This thread is talking immortality in re: not aging, rather than can't be killed.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PerennialRook Posted August 16, 2003 Report Share Posted August 16, 2003 Archer's got it right. There is an ebb and flow to the birth and death rates of the goblins. Other races become concerned when the general trend of the deathrate is in decline (the birthrate is always at full capacity). There have been several nearly successful attempts at world domination. And there are always areas being taken over by goblins who then devour all the resources of the place and move on, much like a swarm of locusts. They have no diety, or if there is one they have long forgotten him, and a diety with no worshipers soon (in cosmic terms) fades from existance. They are very alien to the world, and cannot breed with any of the other races (no half goblins). And there ARE no goblin miners or tradesfolk. -Preston Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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