Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

[Kid Jurassic]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

Claraudience/voyance can be pretty game breaking if it is not strictly controlled.

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

Are there perhaps things in comics that don't translate well into the team oriented world of champions? As expected, the bunneh touched on the point most salient to my needs. What sort of comic book antics don't work well in a world that seemingly must function on a team level as opposed to most books that deal with a single protagonist?

[fiducia]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

Claraudience/voyance can be pretty game breaking if it is not strictly controlled.

 

Which can be pretty frustrating for the player possessing such things, as you and I have seen.

[teh bunneh]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

Damage Reduction and area affect attacks help. But Speed is the big issue. In the past I've used 'variable speed' master villains - when alone their Speed varies depending on the # of heroes they're facing.

 

That's a good solution I hadn't thought of! Thanks.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

"Villain captures the heroes", though I don't think that's Champions-specific. Most players I've met seem like they'd prefer their characters get killed rather than captured, and will fight tooth and nail to avoid that genre convention.

 

 

 

I hear that lots but I've been very lucky that way. My players although they go down hard realize its part of convention for pulp/supers etc to occasionally get captured and go with the flow. except for Sinanju when he used to play with us who had thew habit of designing characters that were much much easier to kill than subdue.

 

Wildly variable power levels CAN work but it hard. Works better when everyone's in the same vague ballpark

 

I agree splitting up the group for long periods of time is tough

 

 

One villain standing against the whole group is tough also. PCs coordinate much better and don't line up to take the big bad on one at a time. Again it CAN work but its tough. My PCs prefer big bads that they can have a great one on one with anyway.

 

 

I've found HERO's Claraudience/voyance rules are the best and least abusive I've found while still making them useful but you still have to watch them carefully.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

The genre convention that I find never works is the surly loner who refuses to work with the team but nonetheless is allowed to stick around. (Consider Wolverine, who would probably get kicked out of a lot of games.)

 

 

absolutely We had one player who kept trying that and he'd end up having to play a different character all the time.

[Certified]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

That's a good solution I hadn't thought of! Thanks.

 

Something else I've done for some villains is give them powers with a trigger such as being struck with a zero phase reset. These typically tend to be weaker powers because of the trigger but can help to keep the players on their toes even with a Speed 4 or 5 villain.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

PCs getting saved by a suddenly-arriving guest star is another one that doesn't work well.

 

 

I agree the PCs need to BE the heroes not saved by them. slightly different but vaguely related. My players often call the equivalent of the Justice league as insurance but try to take care of things before they get there.

[Scifi_Toughguy]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

Something else I've done for some villains is give them powers with a trigger such as being struck with a zero phase reset. These typically tend to be weaker powers because of the trigger but can help to keep the players on their toes even with a Speed 4 or 5 villain.

 

Please pardon my lack of skill with Hero-fu. What is the zero phase reset and could you give an example of something you have done?

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

Another convention that doesn't work very well is the "Get to know you" fight where heroes fight each other briefly before realising it's all a misunderstanding.

 

 

Works for us. Heck! my players have conversations and get to know the BAD GUYS during fights. Sometimes even getting to kind of like each other. One payer even met one of the villains on neutral ground to see if she could help her with some of her issues.

[Certified]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

Please pardon my lack of skill with Hero-fu. What is the zero phase reset and could you give an example of something you have done?

 

The Zero Phase action means it can be reset automatically on your next action without taking up a Phase or Half Phase.

 

Here's one that I'm using currently, I've hidden it since I'm playing on Hero Central. If anyone from the Metahumans Rising game is reading this please no clicky.

 

 

 

Bitter Blast: Energy Blast 3d6+1, Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; Being Struck; +1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Double Knockback (+3/4) (42 Active Points)

 

 

[Certified]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

The Zero Phase action means it can be reset automatically on your next action without taking up a Phase or Half Phase.

 

Here's one that I'm using currently, I've hidden it since I'm playing on Hero Central. If anyone from the Metahumans Rising game is reading this please no clicky.

 

 

 

Bitter Blast: Energy Blast 3d6+1, Trigger (Activating the Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action, Trigger requires a Zero Phase Action to reset, Character does not control activation of personal Trigger; Being Struck; +1/4), Area Of Effect (One Hex; +1/2), Double Knockback (+3/4) (42 Active Points)

 

 

It's not the most effective attack in the world but it wasn't intended to be. What I wanted was a shock to the system. The Character uses cold and wind based powers so it's easy to justify both the Advantages on the powers. I'm sure it would be a lot meaner as a RKA but I didn't want the lethality.

[Vulcan]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

A much better way to deal with it.

 

I agree with you. Not everyone does.

[Vulcan]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

The genre convention that I find never works is the surly loner who refuses to work with the team but nonetheless is allowed to stick around. (Consider Wolverine' date=' who would probably get kicked out of a lot of games.)[/quote']

 

That's not neccesarily true, I had a lot of fun playng a surly loner who had been blackmailed (my idea, not the GM's) into being on the team. The character interactions were a blast! Of course, the main reason the other characters put up with him was that he was the main investigator for the team... They needed him, whether they liked it or not.

 

Of course, I went into the game knowing that this surly loner needed a reason to be on the team - both from his point of view, and for the other characters to put up with him.

[Kid Jurassic]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

Works for us. Heck! my players have conversations and get to know the BAD GUYS during fights. Sometimes even getting to kind of like each other. One payer even met one of the villains on neutral ground to see if she could help her with some of her issues.

 

Our group routinely goes to "Capes" in NYC to hob knob with fellow heroes and villians alike. Proditor runs it very well for us...

[Certified]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

One comic convention that rarely holds over well is things like, the mystery power. Sure Players and GMs can work out something but what happens when it's show and tell it's not what they want/like or unbalances the game. Also, what to do with the character that's under powered up to that point.

[lapsedgamer]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

We had a previous discussion on that very subject: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=30900 . The Interposing rules from Ultimate Martial Artist were brought up as one alternative, but that's more of a threatened retribution against attacking someone else, rather than an actual defensive move. However, I found a few rulebook and FAQ rulings which implied that a GM could allow someone to perform a Half or Full Move to get between an attacker and his target, and in the case of a Half Move, then perform a Defensive Action like Block or Missile Deflection to protect him; or even Abort to a Half Move for that purpose and Abort again to a Defensive Action. (I quote those rulings on Post #15 of the above linked thread.)

 

FWIW I also ran that proposal past Steve Long on the "Rules Questions" forum, and he didn't shoot it down outright: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31001

 

It should be done that way regardless, as it is well within the limits of the genre. I would even allow pushed movements to get the tone right.

[bubba smith]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

how about the bit where a martail artist wants to join a superhero team but the other heroes dont think he's good enough[as in the karate kid episode of legion of super-heroes

[Kenn]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

does the interdimensional heroes team up convention ala the silver age earth 1-earth 2 style team ups work in champions?

for those who are unfamiliar when DC revived the justice society in the 1960's the flash learned that jay garrick the golden age flash really existed but in an alternate universe later called earth 2[even though the jsa came first by the time that error was pointed out it was to late to correct it] would a toryline like that work in champions?

 

I did it once. It was... okay.

[Nagisawa Takumi]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

Most of the 'problems' I see are GM related. Especially with the dealing with NPC/PC fighting and stuff.

 

But the only two real game related problems I have encountered in my brief foray as a HERO GM have been the one Shot KOs, and the X-Men vs. Magneto problem.

 

They, by the book, don't happen very well. Usually, in the games I played and ran if you took enough damage to knock you out in one blow, it usually meant you were near death, or dead. And SPD boosting the villains were kind of expensive point wise. The Trigger on being attacked, NOW that is a good call. I like it.

 

The other one I have is the 'Gun Threat'. Some of the guns are too damaging against beginning heroes who should be tougher than they are. But if you make them too tough, they don't get much chance to make other powersets.

[rjcurrie]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

Well one Silver Age convention that doesn't work very well is "Our bad guy has his maguffin split up into six parts all over the world. Let's all split up so it's less obvious that Superman doesn't need the rest of the team." The only time splitting the group works is as a justification for why the players who didn't show up this time don't have a character.

 

I don't think I've ever split the group that much, but I have split the group in two in a convention game and switched back in forth between the two for about 2 1/2 hours. It's just a matter of making sure you don't wait too long between switches.

 

Although, you know, I should do the "split the team into many parts to each accomplish a goal" one of these years in one of my convention games.

 

 

Another convention that doesn't work very well is the "Get to know you" fight where heroes fight each other briefly before realising it's all a misunderstanding.

 

Actually, we sort of had that in the old Champions campaign that I used to play in. In fact, it was the campaign where I played Rick Davies the Resilient Rubber-Man (my avatar here on the boards). Well, Rick had just gotten married and headed off on his honeymoon, so I was playing Challenger (a patriotic American superhero) as a replacement because the GM had an adventure that grew out of one of the many things that happened in the wedding session: some kind of demon-related plot that I don't recall. Since the campaign was set in Toronto, I decided that David Kennedy (Challenger's Secret ID) was in Toronto on business. At the same time, my friend Kevin was introducing a new character: a teenage American mystic whose father had just been transferred to Toronto and was on her first mission with the Heroes Guild, the campaign superteam. In any event, as Challenger was in the limo heading downtown from the airport, he hears a radio report about the demonic trouble and has his driver head to that area of town. Meanwhile, at the battle, the young mystic was knocked serverely unconscious and one of the members of the Guild decided it would be a good idea to get her out of there. So, Mocker, this guy stuck in a suit that made him look like a demon (sort of Blue Devil with the Martian Manhunter's power set) picked her up and was carrying her outside. So, when Challenger arrived, he saw what appeared to be a demon carrying a girl who he recognized as a young American heroine. Needless to say, he attacked the demon (that is, Mocker) and the fight was on. After Challenger regained consciousness, he teamed up with the Guild for an adventure that took them to Hell and back.

[Balabanto]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

"Villain captures the heroes", though I don't think that's Champions-specific. Most players I've met seem like they'd prefer their characters get killed rather than captured, and will fight tooth and nail to avoid that genre convention.

 

Certain skills (Persuasion, Conversation) and mental powers (Telepathy to read surface thoughts, Mind Control) don't work well against player characters, in my experience, even though they seem to work great against the heroes in comic books.

 

My solution to that is "Kill them, then." If the player can't handle being captured, then as soon as the other PC's wake up in the deathtrap, he's dead, go back to chargen. It's a convention of the genre that characters get captured, and quite frankly, they shouldn't be playing superhero RPGs if they don't expect to get captured at some point.

[Balabanto]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

Railroading the heroes into being captured as a plot point is bad' date=' heroes being captured in the normal course of being, well heroes, isn't really problematic.[/quote']

 

I don't see how knocking everyone unconscious is "Railroading." If they lose a fight, and occasionally, they should, then they should be captured. Most of the time, in the comics, NPC's dont' just waste the heroes. It's just that my world has a "good for the goose, good for the gander" policy. If you run around wasting people, the lethality level dramatically increases and your fellow heroes will try to arrest you.

 

Deathtraps and long gloating soliloquies are a part of the game. They may not be a part of your players mentalities, but they're a part of the game. So, regarding the above comment, if the player can't handle being captured as opposed to being killed, maybe this player shouldn't be in your game in the first place, especially if you keep running into the same wall with him.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

one game I'm in the GM likes to run round-robin games, where each of the four heroes is separate. He's pretty good about rotating around the table quickly (15-20 min a player) and keeping things moving. It's kind of cool, and the GM handles it really well.

[Peregrine]

Re: Comic Book (genre) Conventions that don't work in Champions

 

It's not a comics-only genre convention, but...

 

Having a single person as the main/master/exclusive storyteller. Most other genre mismatches come down to that single point - the GM should not be the only one at the table telling the story, or even the main one doing so.