The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

[Theron]

That is the question.

 

I'm trying to get a new campaign off the ground. But I'm also not up to building a world from scratch, so I'm thinking about letting the CU product line do the heavy lifting for me. Thing is, I really don't want the Champions in there. At all. I have nothing against the characters in particular. I even played Defender at a convention and had a fine time. But they're standing squarely in that PC-shaped hole in my campaign. Leaving them in as another group of locals is more trouble than it's worth, in my experience. Moving them to another city is entirely possible, but in all honesty, I'd just rather excise them from the setting.

 

Which can lead to unintended consequences I'd rather know about ahead of time. F'rinstance, Talisman is Witchcraft's sister. And Witchcraft is a prime contender for Sorceror Supreme (or the CU equivalent). So that's a niche a PC could potentially fill, or another NPC.

 

While I was typing this, It occurred to me that I could change Witchcraft's name to Solitaire and set her up as a more "go it alone" type NPC heroine who handles the big mystical stuff the PCs aren't up to yet, but is often off-dimension when they actually need her. Sort of like Elminster.

 

But that's kind of my point as well. I certainly CAN make the necessary changes. I've been playing and GMing this game for 26 freakin' years, and I've picked up a thing or two in that time. The thing is, there's a difference between "Can" and "Want to." Which is why I'm bothering y'all. See, I figure someone out there has noted the places where the CU intersects the Champions in particular and what might need to be changed in order to keep them out of the picture.

 

Or not. I figure there might be some decent discussion on the subject either way.

[bubba smith]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

would just using the heroes civilian ids as non powered characters work?

[Theron]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

would just using the heroes civilian ids as non powered characters work?

 

Good question.

 

I don't want to do that, as it inevitably sets up the heroes as having to live up to the previous bunch's legacy. I've done the replacement heroes game a number of times, and while it works fine, it's not the angle I want to pursue with this campaign.

[bubba smith]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

ok thanks

[Tom]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

Well, one thought for Witchcraft is in her b/g. She was operating solo in Vibora Bay until Defender formed the Champions. If the Champs never form, just leave her there...

 

But I digress...

 

My FtF game is set in MC also and for the same reasons. I have my group filling the same role (more or less) as the MC8 and leave the Champions in place though. My players have a much stronger mystic bent than the Champs, and would rather be the rogue/shadow heroes than the spotlight group. Makes it easy for me to leave the Champions as is (especially since the 'early' Witchcraft is fairly low self-esteem -- having a group of mystically aware heroes in the shadows does wonders for her peace of mind). Also, being somewhat pressed for time, I started the game at the same point on the timeline as the MC supplement, but I also have NotW -- and I use its timeline to keep track of the Champions...

 

Now if your players want the public/accepted team role, w/o necessarily getting rid of the Champs NPCs, have one of your PCs lay the groundwork for the PC team before James Harmon/Defender forms the Champions. Leave Defender as either a failed solo hero (possibly still in NYC), or too busy trying to prove himself worthy of running the MC branch of HI (available as extra firepower when it gets really deep) to spend much time in armor. Also leaves him available for that rivalry with Cavalier if you want to use it, and don't have any PCs to fill that role...

 

Nighthawk ends up forming a different group in NotW, so leave him solo and eventually forming Project Mongoose if you want that to be part of your game further down the line...

 

Sapphire is a rock star -- have her spend more time on that side of her sheet, and make her more of a dilettante on the hero-side... (could also have her join the PC team, as per the her originally having joined the Champions, as an NPC if it makes sense). If you have a PC who's concept is close enough, just trade one for one...

 

Ironclad could either be more reclusive, and you can leave him someplace isolated floating in the background wanting to be just left alone, or alternatively, you can have him join with UNTIL and station him on Gateway...

[Shaft]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

Tom's idea is a good one. Having the various members around but seperated in different cities gives you the best of both.

 

Nighthawk can also be out in Hudson City serving as its Dark Knight.

[Theron]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

(Rep on its way to both Tom and Shaft)

 

Those are some good ideas and handle things well. One thing I've learned about canned settings is that, often, when you take something out, you have to put back twice as much. I like the idea of the Champions just never forming, but the characters being around the periphery somewhere. I especially like the idea of Hudson City with Nighthawk, since I'm vehemently NOT a "Dark Champions takes place in the same world as Champions" guy.

[MilkmanDan]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

Move the Champions to Chicago, New York, L.A., somewhere else. That way you don't have to adjust backstory much, and they're out of the picture. It's a very quick way to award Millenium City to your players.

 

That, or rocks fall, everyone dies. Boy, the Champions were great, weren't they? Hey, let's all go lay some more flowers at their memorial! Oh look, new heroes!

[Shaft]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

I especially like the idea of Hudson City with Nighthawk' date=' [/quote']

 

If you go on that vein, Dark Angel makes a good Batgirl-esque ally to NightHawk.

 

NightHawk and the Blue Moon Killer are gonna have a problem though... but I always thought it made more sense not to have the Blue Moon Killer limited to one city. I'm thinking that he operates nationally, or even internationally (after all, it's not like he worries about jurisdiction or international laws).

[Highwayman]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

Or you could assume the team broke up just before the PCs appeared. Nightwing's already gone. Like Tom said, it would be easy to picture Sapphire getting pulled away by her career and Witchcraft choosing to concentrate on the mystic side of things. Ironclad could join another team or just fade into the background. And maybe some crisis hits HI, and Defender has to drop the superhero thing to run the company full-time.

 

End result, no Champions, but a potential team sponsor with a nice big empty potential HQ.

[bubba smith]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

Tom's idea is a good one. Having the various members around but seperated in different cities gives you the best of both.

 

Nighthawk can also be out in Hudson City serving as its Dark Knight.

no more calls please we have a winner

[Shoutybloke]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

In my last campaign, the Champions tried to fight Vulshoth and Vulshoth ate them.

This happened at the end of the campaign, but you can easily have something simillar happen to them at some point during the first few games of your campaign.

Nobody really minds when an NPC rival team Jobs to the big bad.

[mattingly]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

My 5th Ed campaign started off with the Champions literally disappearing, along with their headquarters, and a speherical scoop of land around their headquarters. Besides that, where the base had originally stood, a dozen or so supervillains appeared at the same time that the base disappeared.

 

The PCs were the heroes who repsonded to the immediate threat, and were then formed into a team when a sponsor showed up to offer them a team job as the city's superheroes.

[Egyptoid]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

Here's a photo of Champions HQ:

Also in the News: PRIMUS sends out call for Super-Hero Recruitment Drive.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

The Avengers Disassembled storyline by Marvel Comics might work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avengers_Disassembled

 

or

 

 

The Thunderbolts storyline by Marvel Comics, but they really are heroes.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thunderbolts_%28comics%29#Justice.2C_Like_Lightning

 

 

Cheers

 

 

QM

[Clonus]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

If you go on that vein, Dark Angel makes a good Batgirl-esque ally to NightHawk.

 

NightHawk and the Blue Moon Killer are gonna have a problem though... but I always thought it made more sense not to have the Blue Moon Killer limited to one city. I'm thinking that he operates nationally, or even internationally (after all, it's not like he worries about jurisdiction or international laws).

 

I'm perfectly content to dispense with BMK entirely. He doesn't actually fit into the world. How could Hudson City even have an asylum full of Batman villains with a guy like that around?

[Shaft]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

I'm perfectly content to dispense with BMK entirely. He doesn't actually fit into the world. How could Hudson City even have an asylum full of Batman villains with a guy like that around?

 

Well, in Champions continuity, I think Thunderbird is supposed to fit the "Punisher" role (it's fitting that Nighthawk even comments on him directly in the CKC entry). The BMK is far too competant to be an antagonist to the heroes.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

Theron, is your problem with the Champions that they're all starting-level characters that essentially fill the niche you want for your PCs? Or is it just that you don't want NPC heroes around in your setting at all?

 

If it's the former, Champions Universe: News Of The World provides much more experienced versions of the characters, lifting them up to the next level of hero teams; they're much less "the local guys" at this time, with a more global profile and presence, although still based in Millennium City. If it's the latter,IMHO that's going to cause a lot of problems for using much of the default Champions Universe.

 

As for specifics: in CU: NOTW Nighthawk has left the Champions and formed his own team strongly focussed on opposing VIPER, so he can probably be set to one side without much difficulty. AFAICT Ironclad and Sapphire don't have any strong connections to other CU characters -- certainly nothing on their character sheets.

 

Defender is listed as a Rival to the powered-armor hero Cavalier (Millennium City); that's the only direct connection I'm aware of. Witchcraft isn't as problematic as she looks. She's only a potential Archmage... several other characters from the CU are also in the running. Her rivalry with Talisman is a big part of their shared backstory, but nothing on Talisman's character sheet reflects that, and Witchcraft had nothing to do with Talisman leaving the Circle of the Scarlet Moon.

 

Every other reference to the Champions that I've spotted, aside from mentions of events in the "official" timeline, are them being Hunteds to various supervillains, which could easily be replaced by your PCs or some of the other published CU heroes, like the Sentinels, the Justice Squadron, or Unity.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

Well' date=' in Champions continuity, I think Thunderbird is supposed to fit the "Punisher" role (it's fitting that Nighthawk even comments on him directly in the CKC entry). The BMK is far too competant to be an antagonist to the heroes.[/quote']

 

With one of the main differences from Punisher being that Thunderbird focusses on supervillains rather than ordinary criminals. Since supervillains are rarer and tougher than common crooks, Thunderbird would likely be a lower-profile addition to a setting since he would tend to rack up a smaller body count than the Harbinger of Justice.

[Theron]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

Theron' date=' is your problem with the Champions that they're all starting-level characters that essentially fill the niche you want for your PCs? Or is it just that you don't want NPC heroes around in your setting at all?[/quote']

 

Pretty much the latter, though a bit of the former as well. I've found that one of the big problems with EVERY published setting out there is the inevitable established NPC group. Either they're supposed to co-exist with the heroes, be the standard the heroes aspire to (which can be all sorts of problematic depending on proximity and power level), or be replaced by the heroes. The difficulty comes in when writers, doing what writers do, inevitably tie these characters fairly heavily into the backstory of the campaign world. In this, the CU is hardly the worst offender (I found the Freedom League from the otherwise excellent Freedom City setting far harder to remove, one reason I'm using the CU), it's still a bit of a chore for the sort of campaign I want to run.

 

Basically, I want the heroes to be the most important in their city, which in this case will be MC. I don't want them to have another organized group of similar power hanging around, because that either creates needless rivalries or forces me to come up with convincing reasons why the Champions can't help them out every week. I also don't want to put the PCs in the position of being the new guys following in the wake of an established local team. New setting, new heroes is my approach to this. I plan on using a metric gorkload of published adventures, so the timeline in C:NotW is mostly mooted, since I want the stuff it has happening to the Champions happening to my PCs. Though the general sequence is useful.

 

YMMV and all that. I've had a fair bit of time to mull over what does and doesn't work for me and my crew and ultimately, that's what I'll base my decisions on. At the moment, I like the idea that the Champions never formed, but the NPCs are out there in other parts of the world.

[Tom]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

Another possibility is the direction I ended up with in my online game. Excise the 'Dark Champions' part and use Hudson City. The Champions are off in Michigan, and the Sentinels (etc) are in their own cities...

 

This works best if you're starting with 'newer' heroes you intend to grow from dealing with the mean streets to being heavy hitters on the big stage. All you really need to do is ignore the NPC section -- or at least the BMK...

 

One dark and gritty-feeling, Gothamesque, city -- waiting for heroes to redeem it...

[Egyptoid]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

is there a better map of Champions USA anywhere?

 

the one on pg.68 of Champions Universe is okay but quite basic.

[Clonus]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

Pretty much the latter' date=' though a bit of the former as well. I've found that one of the big problems with EVERY published setting out there is the inevitable established NPC group. Either they're supposed to co-exist with the heroes, be the standard the heroes aspire to (which can be all sorts of problematic depending on proximity and power level), or be replaced by the heroes. The difficulty comes in when writers, doing what writers do, inevitably tie these characters fairly heavily into the backstory of the campaign world. In this, the CU is hardly the worst offender (I found the Freedom League from the otherwise excellent [i']Freedom City[/i] setting far harder to remove, one reason I'm using the CU), it's still a bit of a chore for the sort of campaign I want to run.

 

Basically, I want the heroes to be the most important in their city, which in this case will be MC.

 

Well the obvious answers are to have them live somewhere else or have them be the guys who were around some years ago but now they're not. Alternatively, just ignore the "holes". What happened before the campaign started usually doesn't really matter all that much.

[bubba smith]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

why not try the alternane dimension route the cites exist but on your world the other heroes DON'T

[Theron]

Re: The Champions Universe Without The Champions. How Hard Can It Be?

 

why not try the alternane dimension route the cites exist but on your world the other heroes DON'T

 

Mainly because that's more explanation (i.e. work) than this campaign needs, or frankly, deserves at this point. Which defeats the purpose of using a canned setting.

 

Honestly, I've already settled on a course of action. Mostly, this thread was the internet equivalent of thinking out loud and gleaning a couple of good ideas from the ensuing discussion. If other folks want to continue to run with this idea, that's groovy, but I've gotten what I wanted from it with thanks to those who participated.