Getting to two

[Sean Waters]

Erm, I’ve been thinking about standard effect. The problem with standard effect is there is no apparent way of buying 2 points. Well, maybe there is. I KNOW this sounds obvious, but I haven’t seen it set out anywhere, so here goes...

 

For a 5 point power, 5 CP (character points) gets you 3 SE (Standard Effect). We can assume that 1 SE is 1/3 as useful as 3 SE, so the cost is 5/3=1.333 CP. That would make the cost of 2 SE 2x(5/3) or 2.6667 CP, which rounds to 3. That is the same as a half die, of course, but you get a half die by halving 5, to get 2 ½ and then rounding up. It just happens to be the same.

 

For 10 point powers though, 1SE would be 10/3=3.3333, rounds to 3 CP, and 2 SE would be 2x(10/3) or 6.667, which rounds to 7 CP.

 

15 point powers are easy: 5 CP = 1 SE, 10 CP = 2 SE.

 

So, for 5 point/1d6 powers:

1 SE = 1 CP, 2 SE = 3 CP and 3 SE = 5 CP

 

For 10 point/1d6 powers

1 SE = 3 CP, 2 SE = 7 CP and 3 SE = 10 CP

 

For 15 point/1d6 powers

1 SE = 5 CP, 2 SE = 10 CP and 3 SE = 15 CP

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Getting to two

 

I've always thought that for Killing Attacks, SE is 1 BODY per DC. I don't think that's the official rule but it makes way too much sense not to be.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Getting to two

 

Erm, I’ve been thinking about standard effect. The problem with standard effect is there is no apparent way of buying 2 points. Well, maybe there is. I KNOW this sounds obvious, but I haven’t seen it set out anywhere, so here goes...

 

For a 5 point power, 5 CP (character points) gets you 3 SE (Standard Effect). We can assume that 1 SE is 1/3 as useful as 3 SE, so the cost is 5/3=1.333 CP. That would make the cost of 2 SE 2x(5/3) or 2.6667 CP, which rounds to 3. That is the same as a half die, of course, but you get a half die by halving 5, to get 2 ½ and then rounding up. It just happens to be the same.

 

For 10 point powers though, 1SE would be 10/3=3.3333, rounds to 3 CP, and 2 SE would be 2x(10/3) or 6.667, which rounds to 7 CP.

 

15 point powers are easy: 5 CP = 1 SE, 10 CP = 2 SE.

 

So, for 5 point/1d6 powers:

1 SE = 1 CP, 2 SE = 3 CP and 3 SE = 5 CP

 

For 10 point/1d6 powers

1 SE = 3 CP, 2 SE = 7 CP and 3 SE = 10 CP

 

For 15 point/1d6 powers

1 SE = 5 CP, 2 SE = 10 CP and 3 SE = 15 CP

Sean, I mean this in the best way. Truly. But do you ever wonder if sometimes you're a solution in search of a problem...?

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Getting to two

 

I KNOW this sounds obvious, but I haven’t seen it set out anywhere, so here goes...

 

Yeah, you have. You repped me a few months back for a post I made on standard effect on non-multiples-of-three.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2656&highlight=piercing

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Getting to two

 

The standard HERO approach is, you can decide to declare something as doing _less_ than what it could do if you so choose.

 

So, if you're trying to get SE to a particular point and can't get the math to work out, just buy the min amount that does _at least_ what you are aiming at and then state it does the amount you want vs its max possible effect.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Getting to two

 

Sean' date=' I mean this in the best way. [b']Truly.[/b] But do you ever wonder if sometimes you're a solution in search of a problem...?

 

I don't wonder, no. I'm quite sure I am

[Sean Waters]

Re: Getting to two

 

Yeah, you have. You repped me a few months back for a post I made on standard effect on non-multiples-of-three.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2656&highlight=piercing

 

Ha. -1/2. Must upgrade memory

[Captain Obvious]

Re: Getting to two

 

Ha. -1/2. Must upgrade memory

 

Does this mean you're running out of things to fix in the game?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Getting to two

 

Does this mean you're running out of things to fix in the game?

Actually, when I saw the title of Sean's "Not Feeling Well" thread the other day, my first thought (before reading the post) was, "Oh no! Can Sean not think of anything to change in the rules today??"

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Getting to two

 

Basically, to get 2 points of SER just buy a half die. That's how I do it in Hero Designer.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Getting to two

 

Basically' date=' to get 2 points of SER just buy a half die. That's how I do it in Hero Designer.[/quote']

 

...but officially 1/2 dice is +1 SE, not +2.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Getting to two

 

Actually' date=' when I saw the title of Sean's "Not Feeling Well" thread the other day, my first thought (before reading the post) was, "Oh no! Can Sean not think of anything to change in the rules today??" [/quote']

 

You'll miss me when I'm gone.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Getting to two

 

...but officially 1/2 dice is +1 SE' date=' not +2.[/quote']Interesting. You're right.

 

This needs to be fixed....

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Getting to two

 

Wow, a Sean "mr. fixit" post we can all agree on...hell hath truly frozen over!

 

 

 

1/2 die = +2 SE

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Getting to two

 

You'll miss me when I'm gone.

I would miss you if you were gone. All kidding aside, I think your takes on the rules are almost always interesting, often thought-provoking, and occasionally extremely useful.

 

EDIT: Oh, and for the record, I also agree with you on this one.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Getting to two

 

I agree a half die logically equals 2. Now, assuming that's implemented, how do we get an SE of 1? Maybe [cost of 1d6 - cost of 1/2 d6]? We already have it for KA, obviously.

 

I vastly prefer the concept that SE equals the average, rather than a rounded down average, of the amounts that would have been rolled. ie 10d6 should be 35 SE and 9d6 should be 31 (only that last 1/2 point rounding away).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Getting to two

 

As I recall the reason SE is rounded down to 3 / die is two-fold. 1) simplicity and 2) as a predictability penalty.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Getting to two

 

As I recall the reason SE is rounded down to 3 / die is two-fold. 1) simplicity and 2) as a predictability penalty.

 

I think the KA stun multiple threads demonstrate that volatility tends to be more valuable than predictability.

[Markdoc]

Re: Getting to two

 

Interesting. You're right.

 

This needs to be fixed....

 

I'm not sure it does. the average on a half dice is 1.5 (if rolled) so it makes sense that standard effect is 1. It doesn't make sense that standard effect would increase your average damage - which it would if you make the output 2.

 

cheers, Mark

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Getting to two

 

I'm not sure it does. the average on a half dice is 1.5 (if rolled) so it makes sense that standard effect is 1. It doesn't make sense that standard effect would increase your average damage - which it would if you make the output 2.

 

cheers, Mark

 

With three equal possibilities (1, 2 and 3), the average of a half die is 2.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Getting to two

 

Interesting. You're right.

 

This needs to be fixed....

 

Wow, a Sean "mr. fixit" post we can all agree on...hell hath truly frozen over!

 

 

 

1/2 die = +2 SE

 

.................................

EDIT: Oh, and for the record, I also agree with you on this one.

 

Guys, you're freaking me out....

[Kdansky]

Re: Getting to two

 

Standard effect should be 3.5 anyway. Why punishing someone for gimping themselves?

 

10d6 with 1d6=3 will NEVER EVER do stun vs 30 defenses, but 10d6 rolled will sometimes go above even 40. You can only lose. Did I mention that I managed to stun one of my players with 7d6 today and then haymaker him for 11d6 for less?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Getting to two

 

Standard effect should be 3.5 anyway. Why punishing someone for gimping themselves?

 

10d6 with 1d6=3 will NEVER EVER do stun vs 30 defenses, but 10d6 rolled will sometimes go above even 40. You can only lose.

Except when you don't lose. 10d6 with 1d6=3 will ALWAYS do stun vs. less than 30 defenses, but 10d6 rolled will sometimes go below even 20.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Getting to two

 

I dont like the 3 for standard effect. it does guarantee you a certain amount but in a game like HERO where the margins are calculated so much by the referees it often feels very much like a penalty.

 

I would allow a general attack by a character to do standard effect if they asked (like taking 10 in D&D) but if I was designing an attack that could only do standard effect then I would do 3.5 per die.

 

That way I penalise the ad hoc standard effect and have a no effect, no cost, no penalty modifier on the built power.

 

As for +1 SE, I'm not sure why you are worrying Sean. With an effect for 2 SE and one for 3 SE then you can make any number except 1. You can get 4,5,6, 7 etc using 2s and 3s. Do you want an EB that does 1 STUN??

 

 

Doc

[Sean Waters]

Re: Getting to two

 

Also, because in Hero we use defences that subtract from totals, whilst you may be able to guarantee a given result, like 10 SE points for a -1 SPD drain, you can't guarantee a standard effect: if someone has 5 points of power defence, your back with a result you did not want (barring NND shennanigans).

 

I agree with Doc: I'd allow SE to run at 3.5/die and any power normally randomly rolled to take a 3 point per die result on an ad hoc basis.

 

Of course that makes calculating a specific SE result even more of a nightmare

 

OK, maybe then it would be better to leave SE at 3 (with a mechanism for generating both 1 and 2 results) but note that GMs should be flexible in enforcing active point caps for SE powers.

 

In fact, givent hat we do so often employ defences, SE is far more of an imposition that it might appear.

 

6d6 drain is 21 points on average and 18 points SE. If the target has 10 points of PowDef then the result through defences is 11 against 8, which is the equivalent of a -1/4 limitation on the effect.

 

Anyway, I'm sidetracking myself.

 

As usual.