"Outsider" perspective on Hero System

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

C'mon. You guys are acting like this is a new cocept. The Champions character and Superspy would pay half what the Electric Eel does' date=' because for them its an OAF. (OK, if you want to get really technical, I think most tasers only have 2 "charges," although each charge can be used on the target repeatedly once the barbs get in them. So, there's a limit in that somewhere, too."[/quote']

 

That wasn't the question. How much does it cost? Other characters have paid for other things. What will the ability you want to handwave in as a Taser cost in character points? How will it balance against other alternatives? How much does a character pay to be resistant to, or immune to, this new ability?

 

To me, the best way to evaluate "an appropriate price" is to use existing mechanics. Comparison to other mechanics is also a useful mechanism for assessing whether a given cost is appropriate.

[sbarron]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

That wasn't the question. How much does it cost? Other characters have paid for other things. What will the ability you want to handwave in as a Taser cost in character points? How will it balance against other alternatives? How much does a character pay to be resistant to, or immune to, this new ability?

 

To me, the best way to evaluate "an appropriate price" is to use existing mechanics. Comparison to other mechanics is also a useful mechanism for assessing whether a given cost is appropriate.

In my original post I said 15 Real Points. Looking at the guns in DC and given the limitations I put on it, that might be a little high. So, lets say 5 real points.

 

These 5 points get you

 

"Taser: Tasers temporarily incompacitate their victims. So long as the taser is active, characters with less than a 15 CON or 15 EGO are unable to take an action. Characters with a 15 CON or EGO are able to make a CON or EGO roll to act in their phase. Once the taser's pulse is no longer active, characters effected by a taser must make a CON or EGO roll in order to begin using their muscles again.

 

Each standard taser contains 2 shots. Combined, these shots are able to provide about 195 five second "pulses" per battery. Once activated, the user can continue to apply the pulse until the battery runs out. Tasers are not effective against hardened defenses, or any clothing that prevents the tasers barbs from entering the skin of the victim. Tasers also have wires that must be conected to the Taser in order to deliver the pulse to the victim. Do to these limitations, tasers have a 2" range, -2 OCV, and a 14- activation roll."

[nexus]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Because HERO mechanics do a great job of modeling 95% of powers' date=' skills, and effects. However, the HERO system does not model the other 5% of powers, skills, and effects very well at all.."[/quote']

 

Personally, I feel a great deal of this stems from a need to overcomplicate things to get them "just right". Hero has a high degree of granularity but it has it's limits. As I mentioned earlier, a pretty straight forward EB seems to model a Taser for Hero pretty well. Anything else can be chalked up to special effects and GM calls, IMO. There are some things than can difficult to model but I don't think it's as high as "5 percent" and still don't require pure handwave to model just a little thought and application of the KISS principle.

 

All IMO.

 

HERO has already begun to embrace the concept of just making things "cost what they should" when they added the divide by 3 or divide by 5 mechanic for spells in FH. Is making things "work" as they should really that different? Especially since we're only talking about a small subset of powers, skills, or effects.

 

IMO, yes it is. It's more a cost balancing mechanism for low point games to balance out that Heroic characters don't have to pay points for equipment but magic character generally do for spells and innate abilities. It's not really abandoning the system or core rules for building items.

 

I mean seriously...the speedzone? That's canon and makes sense, but this idea is somehow whack?

 

The Speedzone is, AFIAK, an optional effect like any of the new rules in the Ultimate books, use of them as you want. It's an effect with some heritage in Hero System (EDM as a workhouse) but there are other ways to model it (and more balanced one, IMO, personally I don't use the Speed Zone).

[Doc Democracy]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

All this talk about what HERO can do and cannot do.

 

There is always the approach of coming from the setting. Much of the things you talk about with Tasers come from physiological effect of the electricity on a human body. Much of the detail can be achieved by building such reactions into the 'human template'.

 

So - 0 point disad "Human reaction to electrical attack" Any electrical attack that does 20 or more STUN will cause the following additional impacts on the victim: [whatever you want]

 

Now that can be part of the normal human template (and comes with NCM perhaps) or default for everyone unless they buy the relevant life support.

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

In my original post I said 15 Real Points. Looking at the guns in DC and given the limitations I put on it, that might be a little high. So, lets say 5 real points.

 

These 5 points get you

 

"Taser: Tasers temporarily incompacitate their victims. So long as the taser is active, characters with less than a 15 CON or 15 EGO are unable to take an action. Characters with a 15 CON or EGO are able to make a CON or EGO roll to act in their phase. Once the taser's pulse is no longer active, characters effected by a taser must make a CON or EGO roll in order to begin using their muscles again.

 

Each standard taser contains 2 shots. Combined, these shots are able to provide about 195 five second "pulses" per battery. Once activated, the user can continue to apply the pulse until the battery runs out. Tasers are not effective against hardened defenses, or any clothing that prevents the tasers barbs from entering the skin of the victim. Tasers also have wires that must be conected to the Taser in order to deliver the pulse to the victim. Do to these limitations, tasers have a 2" range, -2 OCV, and a 14- activation roll."

 

OK, we're starting with a 2" range, a -2 OCV, a 14- Activation roll, reduced impact if the target has high CON or EGO (ASIDE: have we just added Will and Fortitude saves to Hero?), 195 5 second pulses (which equals 975 seconds, or 16.25 turns - sounds a lot better than most 2 charge powers!) which will not work against anyone with hardened defenses or sufficient protection. This costs 5 points, from your number. What does it cost for the taser effect:

 

- to require no wires, have standard range, lack an activation roll, impose no OCV penalty, not require darts and cost ordinary END rather than having charges (the Electric Eel character)

 

- to have only two charges (no pulses)?

 

- to have a worse OCV penalty?

 

- to not be continuous (no darts that stick in, just an electrical bolt)?

 

- to lack any range or darts (it's a hand-held electrical stunner - Mutant X had them)

 

- to impose a higher CON/EGO requirement before a roll is available to avoid its effects?

 

- to impose no CON/EGO requirement before a roll is available to avoid its effects?

 

- any combination of the above?

 

- to have SFX other than electricity? Maybe it's a heatstroke attack with the same stunning effect.

 

- to be more or less difficult to end by pulling out the darts (either myself or my teammate)?

 

- to be delivered by a system other than darts (electroSword; Taser Arrow; Electrified Fence; Bolos; Net)?

 

- to be added to a related attack power, and Linked thereto (ElectroMan's ElectroBolt is an EB that also has a Taser like effect)?

 

- mine fires multiple darts, so it can be Autofired or affect an area - how do I cost that out?

 

- to be Aided, Drained, Suppressed or Dispelled? Does it have AP of 5 as well? Dispel Taser is pretty cheap then. And what are the effects of 6d6 Aid Taser?

 

Unless we're planning to impose a SFX restriction that only a Taser can achieve this effect, and its SFX can never be changed or modified, then a flat cost functions poorly. And imposing SFX on a Power is not the Hero Way, at least not in my view.

 

I agree there may well be abilities where the GM has to impose a flat point cost. However, I believe that cost should be stripped down to the basics of the ability and then subject to advantages and limitations, just like any other power. Further, this should be a last resort - only where the existing powers, advantages and limitations are incapable of building the desired effect.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

There is always the approach of coming from the setting. Much of the things you talk about with Tasers come from physiological effect of the electricity on a human body. Much of the detail can be achieved by building such reactions into the 'human template'.

 

So - 0 point disad "Human reaction to electrical attack" Any electrical attack that does 20 or more STUN will cause the following additional impacts on the victim: [whatever you want]

 

Unless this is done for every SFX, in a balanced way, electrical powers now gain a free advantage over other SFX. Even if done in a balanced way, we now get mechanics inextricably linked to SFX. Not the approach I'd like Hero to take.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Unless this is done for every SFX' date=' in a balanced way, electrical powers now gain a free advantage over other SFX. Even if done in a balanced way, we now get mechanics inextricably linked to SFX. Not the approach I'd like Hero to take.[/quote']

 

Due to its nature (and that of human physiology) electricity does have a unique set of advantages on other SFX. If you are looking for verisimilitude (thanks Vondy!) then you may wish to build this into the human template. You may wish not to.

 

As I said, HERO is a toolkit, one option that people do not consider is changing the template to make it a better fit as this often makes certain effects much easier to manipulate than working powers. It also makes distinguishing between targets much easier....

 

I want HERO to open every avenue to GM manipulation, including this one. People may not wish to take it but they should understand what the core template is and how to manipulate it for the benefit of the game they want to play.

 

If it made you feel better it may be an effect that you pay for (an adder perhaps) so you'd buy your EB and add a taser adder for 5 or 10 points that triggers the human weakness....

 

As I said, it is all about what you decide to do as you build your game. Not everything has to come from individual characters and HERO GMs should be encouraged to explore options such as this. I do not think that HERO should keep the template secret and GMs should not be afraid to explore it.

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Due to its nature (and that of human physiology) electricity does have a unique set of advantages on other SFX. If you are looking for verisimilitude (thanks Vondy!) then you may wish to build this into the human template. You may wish not to.

 

Fire, acid, sonics and subsonics, light/lasers, cold - all have implications on human physiology that differ from one another and from the standard effects of an energy blast or killing attack. Ideally, the game would recognize all of these in a balanced fashion or, failing same, recognize none of the ancillary effects.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Fire' date=' acid, sonics and subsonics, light/lasers, cold - all have implications on human physiology that differ from one another and from the standard effects of an energy blast or killing attack. Ideally, the game would recognize all of these in a balanced fashion or, failing same, recognize none of the ancillary effects.[/quote']

 

 

Of those, I would recognise only subsonics as something that would have immediate combat effects and those are often subtle and specific. However, if the GM wants to go to town then fine. Great. Fantastic.

 

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Of those' date=' I would recognise only subsonics as something that would have immediate combat effects and those are often subtle and specific. However, if the GM wants to go to town then fine. Great. Fantastic.[/quote']

 

I would have thought having your clothes ignited (fire), the need to wash off, or cancel with another chemical (acid canceled by base), potential long-term or permanent blindness (lasers; light) and the numbing effects of frostbite were pretty immediate combat effects.

 

Under your model, by the way, it remains impossible to build the taser described by most posters - taking 20 STUN KO's most normals anyway. Being hit 8 times for 20 STUN each will KO pretty much anyone.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Under your model' date=' by the way, it remains impossible to build the taser described by most posters - taking 20 STUN KO's most normals anyway. Being hit 8 times for 20 STUN each will KO pretty much anyone.[/quote']

 

'Twas but an example. I was more interested in raising the mechanical process than thrashing out detail....

[ghost-angel]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

If you guys want to get into SFX having more than flavor and the occasional in-game application beyond the pure Mechanical Build - I suggest the approach taken in The Ultimate Energy Projector (Chapter 2).

 

Adds a little more to Campaign Prep Time, but then makes SFX really stand out.

[Vulcan]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Fire' date=' acid, sonics and subsonics, light/lasers, cold - all have implications on human physiology that differ from one another and from the standard effects of an energy blast or killing attack. Ideally, the game would recognize all of these in a balanced fashion or, failing same, recognize none of the ancillary effects.[/quote']

 

You can model all these in the HEROS system. Many people don't, because of the added level of complexity this would involve in an already complex game. For most people's purposes, calling it an E-blast (or RKA) with the FX of electricity (or sonic, or fire, or the existential blue crayon gun!) will suffice. No need to get into 'uberrealism' because that's not what HEROS is designed to play!

 

HEROS reflects dramatic realism. And in dramatic realism, sometimes (heck, a lot of the time) things don't work exactly realistically.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

You can model all these in the HEROS system. Many people don't' date=' because of the added level of complexity this would involve in an already complex game. For most people's purposes, calling it an E-blast (or RKA) with the FX of electricity (or sonic, or fire, or the existential blue crayon gun!) will suffice. No need to get into 'uberrealism' because that's [i']not what HEROS is designed to play![/i]

 

HEROS reflects dramatic realism. And in dramatic realism, sometimes (heck, a lot of the time) things don't work exactly realistically.

 

I agree. Where I see a problem is where we give one SFX an advantage based on realism, but we don't extend that to the others. That makes one SFX more powerful at the same cost, which I find problematic.

[tesuji]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Unless this is done for every SFX' date=' in a balanced way, electrical powers now gain a free advantage over other SFX. Even if done in a balanced way, we now get mechanics inextricably linked to SFX. Not the approach I'd like Hero to take.[/quote']

 

A question for you - is this concern an objection to this being a 0 pt disad?

 

For example, if he had defined it as say a 5 -10 pt disad for "humans in this setting" (but not necessarily undead or elves for instance) would your concern over sfx balance go away?

[sbarron]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I agree there may well be abilities where the GM has to impose a flat point cost. However' date=' I believe that cost should be stripped down to the basics of the ability and then subject to advantages and limitations, just like any other power. Further, this should be a last resort - only where the existing powers, advantages and limitations are incapable of building the desired effect.[/quote']I don't think I would want to strip the taser down to make it a power unto itself.

 

If a character in a Champions are Dark Champions game, which requires characters to pay points for items, wanted to have a Taser, they could get one for 5 points, and it would function as I've outlined. If the the Electric Eel character, or any character in a Champions are DC game that had to pay points for powers, wanted to have a Taser "power," I'd make them design and pay for this power however they best saw fit within the rules.

 

In that way, this patch of the problems with modeling Tasers stays very limited. In Heroic games where points don't matter, Tasers basically work like they do in real life (given my restrictions). In games where characters have to pay points for equipment, buying a baseline Taser costs 5 points. Higher end Tasers would cost more. In any games where a character wanted to purchase the ability to "Tase," I'd make them create their own taser effect and pay points for it accordingly.

 

I'm not trying to redesign the HERO system. Just trying to find a work around for a simple, real world, weapon that is tough to model in HERO.

[Markdoc]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I'll skip over the SFX angst to suggest for tasers:

 

2d6 CON Drain + 2d6 EB (Linked). Flavour with OAF, continuous, reduced range, charges and lockout to taste.

 

That attack used on a healthy Normal (10 CON, 2PD) has a slightly better than average chance of stunning him on the first shot and will almost certainly stun him on the second. If you keep tasing him, he'll likely a) pass out and maybe take a small amount of BOD, but he won't die. If you stop tasering him he'll be up and about in a very short period unless you've given him a real working over, but he'll feel a bit wobbly for a minute or so. A big tough normal might take several tasings, but odds are pretty good you'll stun him after several shots. Most supers will laugh a taser off.

 

And someone with a susceptibility to electricity (a pacemaker or heart condition) could die from being tasered.

 

cheers, Mark

[prestidigitator]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

HEROS reflects dramatic realism. And in dramatic realism' date=' sometimes (heck, a [i']lot[/i] of the time) things don't work exactly realistically.

 

The funny thing is when reality doesn't exactly work realistically. Or at least according to what the television tells us is "realistic". On TV everyone who is hit by a taser either flies backwards and is instantly incapacitated, or just stands there because they are so "big and tough". Often reality is stranger than fiction, so why are we fussing so much about what is "realistic" here? Make tasers the non-lethal weapon they are intended to be (in whatever manner best suits your setting or ideas) and get on with the darn game!

[CourtFool]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I believe this argument to be academic. The original point was that Hero can not model everything, correct? Obviously this is debatable. No system can model everything perfectly subjected to enough scrutiny.

 

I believe what this really comes down to is that Hero failed to meet an individual’s expectations which were largely set by previous experiences. Trying to prove that Hero is The System Which Shall Not Be Named is futile. You are debating opinion.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

A question for you - is this concern an objection to this being a 0 pt disad?

 

For example, if he had defined it as say a 5 -10 pt disad for "humans in this setting" (but not necessarily undead or elves for instance) would your concern over sfx balance go away?

 

My concern is an objection to this imposed disadvantage granting a significant advantage to a single special effect. To me, this fails on two counts:

 

- realism or verisimilitude: we have made electricity more consistent with its real-life effects in a single respect. It still takes no penalty for striking a poorly grounded target (eg. someone flying), for example. Other special effects have not been modified to be more appropriate given their real-life effects (why doesn't fire scorch clothing, ignite hair and melt objects, for example?).

 

- game balance: electricity has a free benefit not afforded any other SFX, yet it has no added cost. Every character has a "must breathe air" disadvantage, but simply defining my attack as "water" does not mean I do extra damage against characters with this drawback. If we decided, as a ground rule, all Humans take 2x STUN from a specific SFX, that means that SFX becomes more powerful by default, regardless of whether the humans get 0 or 30 disadvantage points for this vulnerability.

 

This could be mitigated in a game where humans are not exceptionally common, to address your comment about elves or undead, if different SFX have advantages against different common species, and perhaps drawbacks against others. That's a lot of work, and also requires one of two approaches. Either each SFX has both benefits and drawbacks, more or less canceling each other out, or only certain SFX are permitted, since those lacking special benefits will be underpowered compared to those with advantages integrated into the campaign. Of course, the ability to use multiple SFX is much more powerful in a game world such as this, since I can choose to use my electrical attack against humans and switch to whatever elves are vulnerable to when attacking elves.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Of course' date=' the ability to use multiple SFX is much more powerful in a game world such as this, since I can choose to use my electrical attack against humans and switch to whatever elves are vulnerable to when attacking elves.[/quote']

 

variability goes both ways. In a world where electrical attacks are more effective there would be better electrical defences. That isn't true yet but I can see criminals sorting themselves out so that tasers are less effective when tasers become common enough.

 

That would be reflected in a point based system.

 

 

Doc

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

variability goes both ways. In a world where electrical attacks are more effective there would be better electrical defences. That isn't true yet but I can see criminals sorting themselves out so that tasers are less effective when tasers become common enough.

 

That would be reflected in a point based system.

 

Do criminals typically wear bullet proof vests now?

[Alibear]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I've read somewhere knife proof vest sales are on the rise in London.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Do criminals typically wear bullet proof vests now?

 

Security and armed forces routinly wear bullet-proof and stab proof clothing. Criminals often less so because they'd kinda give the game away and normal people because the cost benefit doesn't lie in the right place.

 

I'd say that the prevalence of knife and gun armed criminals have influenced the wearing of protective clothing - it has been especially noticeable over here in the UK.

[ghost-angel]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Security and armed forces routinly wear bullet-proof and stab proof clothing. Criminals often less so because they'd kinda give the game away and normal people because the cost benefit doesn't lie in the right place.

 

I'd say that the prevalence of knife and gun armed criminals have influenced the wearing of protective clothing - it has been especially noticeable over here in the UK.

 

armor is regulated in the US under Public Law 90-351, Criminal Acts Law of 1968. You can get it, but it's not a trip to Wal-Mart to do so.