"Outsider" perspective on Hero System

[incrdbil]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Hero is as universal as any game can get. Genre conventiosn vary so much, you have to do some pre-campaign system settings before play.

 

If a gM addresses conventions he wants in his campaign (to include absolutes), the HERO system can easily do it. Most of the complaints I've seen about HERO not being able to do charaters involve examples that don't have any genre background or preparation information--or they involve horribly broken character concepts that don't fit in any game, for good reason.

 

Heck, mosy game systems out there are dedicated to one niche in one certain area. MEGS, for example, could only do superheroic games, and could only do a decent job at the high end, It tanked for low end heroes.

 

An enterprising GM can take Fred and work up all sorts of different games, and expore variosu permutatiosn of those games just with FRED. The folks at HERO games have provided assisting materials, but the Hero Universal Toolkit is certainly capable of helping you build your own, letting you customize rules without havingto invent entire systems out of nothing.

 

Thats as good as it will ever get for a universal system..

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

In a nutshell, any individual's assessment of whether or not HERO succeeds at being "universal" depends entirely on that individual's definition of "universal" as it applies to RPGs.

 

To me, "universal" in the RPG sense means two things: capable of handling any genre, and capable of handling any power level. I think HERO is universal, because I think it can do both of those things successfully.

 

I don't see "universal" as meaning, "characters/items from any campaigns are interchangeable with any other campaigns." If that were my definition, I would agree that HERO is not universal in that sense.

 

I also don't see "universal" as meaning, "equally well-suited to any style of play." If that were my definition, I would agree that HERO is not universal in that sense. (I think HERO is usable with virtually any style of play, but not equally well-suited to any.)

[incrdbil]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

 

I don't see "universal" as meaning, "characters/items from any campaigns are interchangeable with any other campaigns." If that were my definition, I would agree that HERO is not universal in that sense.

 

I agree. In fact, that sense of universal is simply impossible to achieve by any system with any degree of quality.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

________________________________________

In a nutshell, any individual's assessment of whether or not HERO succeeds at being "universal" depends entirely on that individual's definition of "universal" as it applies to RPGs.

 

To me, "universal" in the RPG sense means two things: capable of handling any genre, and capable of handling any power level. I think HERO is universal, because I think it can do both of those things successfully.

 

I don't see "universal" as meaning, "characters/items from any campaigns are interchangeable with any other campaigns." If that were my definition, I would agree that HERO is not universal in that sense.

 

Even your second definition of “universal” is, arguably, somewhat true of HERO. Because the basic mechanics are the same any character/item from any genre or setting can be interchanged with any other campaign. The result may (and probably will) be utterly game-breaking, defying campaign point and damage limits, demolishing the subtlety of one adventure for the brute force of another, etcetera. It is possible though, however unadvisable it may be…

[薔薇語]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Can anyone think of a real life example where something is completely immune to something else?

 

a character being immune to fire was brought up earlier, but how is this possible? I mean to say that even a fire is susceptible to fire. Hence the phrase "fight fire with fire." Ie a fire will suffocate another fire.

 

I think absolutes are an unrealistic (yes I know RPG aren't meant to be realistic to start with). It seems like (Disclaimer: I am not a physicist) even a Black whole could be ripped to shreds by even stronger gravitational fields. Only absolute I can think of is that you can't destroy mater or energy.

 

Useless prattle,

La Rose

[Thia Halmades]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I'm just lost.

 

Simply put, and without an even vague attempt at diplomacy: You (Wolfgar) posted genero-garbage of the worst, most unqualified sort on a board that has a reputation -- at least here -- of promoting closed mindedness, rage and trolls as its primary purveyors. You then come to this board, say "I post here too, guys" and promptly apologize... to people who don't need the apology. An apology, to me, would be a complete retraction of the nonsense you spewed in the first place, an acknowledgement to let HERO be what it is, which is a Toolkit System, and if you want to do absolutes?

 

GOOD NEWS. You can. At WORST it requires a minor application of handwavium, but Steve does cover it. Additionally, the examples you gave really are awful. Say that HERO doesn't do "pick up and play" well (it doesn't, that's a legitimate gripe) or say that because it is a toolkit there is a barrier to entry (there is; another perfectly legitimate gripe) but don't say that the game doesn't do precisely what it does best: Let you put what's in YOUR head into YOUR language for YOUR game.

 

Seriously.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I would rep you, but the darn internet says I can't.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I think matter and antimatter cancel each other out* That's probably the nearest I can come to a realistic absolute: antimatter destroys matter, absolutley. Not all of it, obviously, but a similar amount.

 

The trouble is that noone says that you have to be realistic in a game. You can certainly think of a character who cannot be harmed by anything, and that is what the back of the book says you can build with the system - any character you can think of.

 

Indestructibility is not even that powerful an ability on its own: so you can't be hurt. Doesn't mean you can't be buried alive, forever. The problem comes when you want to be indestructible and insanely powerful too.

 

The back of the book does not even mention that Hero is a point based system that allows you to balance a character for any campaign setting. It just says you can do anything. You can't.

 

The point of this thread is that it is an outsider perspective. We all know what Hero can't do, but if someone starts playing thinking they CAN do anything, then find out they can't, they are going to be disappointed - moreso than if they had a realsitic idea of what Hero does right from the start. It isn't the players' fault if they take what the back of the rule book says at face value.

 

 

 

 

*A lot of energy is liberated but the total matter+energy after is less than the matter+energy before.

[Sean Waters]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

...actually here I am using hyperbole myself. Never mind 'indestructible and all powerful', here's an example of something a player wanted - a taser gun. Hit someone with the taser dart and they are pretty much instantly unconscious (or incapacitated) for some time. Not unrealistic. You see it a lot in lots of genres - but, because of the nature of Hero it is expensive to build at the level of effect it is usually demonstrated as operating at. An instant KO is hard to pull off in a point balance game, and this was Dark Champions - basically non-super humans with lots of fun equipment, training and attitude.

 

Sure you can build it in Hero, you just pile on damage and DEX drains until you can KO anything, but you can't just hand that to a PC when other PCs have point constraints.

 

Not a criticism of the system as such - you have to decide what is more important - game balance or realism, but the system does big itself up to the point where those unfamilar with it may well be disappointed with what they actually get - so not a criticism of the players either. It is a criticism of the hype.

[prestidigitator]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I'd have to say that a lot of other systems aren't exactly playable right "out of the box" either, though it depends a little on what you are looking for and how you define "out of the box." How many books do you have to buy to play D&D "out of the box?" (especially if you consider starting from scratch rather than having a bunch of friends who know the system and already have a bunch of books and source material...). What if you want a setting to play it in rather than just imagining all of it taking place in some unnamed wooded hills somewhere or something?

 

I'd call Hero just as playable with the main system book and a genre book or two as D&D is with a Player's Handbook, DMG, monster supplement, and setting book (I'm talking pre-4th Edition D&D at least; no idea about 4E). I'd call it ALMOST as playable with just the system book as D&D is with a Player's Handbook and DMG (or perhaps the D20 3.5 System Reference Document). But maybe that's a function of my expectations when A.) creating my own source material, and B.) expecting to use other game designers'.

 

There are other systems that are FAR more playable "out of the box" (usually with just ONE book) than either Hero or D&D. ShadowRun, for example, and any of the (2nd Edition, at least) World of Darkness games (mostly because the source material is readily available in our own experiences, on the television, in the newspaper, etc.).

[nexus]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

...actually here I am using hyperbole myself. Never mind 'indestructible and all powerful', here's an example of something a player wanted - a taser gun. Hit someone with the taser dart and they are pretty much instantly unconscious (or incapacitated) for some time. Not unrealistic. You see it a lot in lots of genres - but, because of the nature of Hero it is expensive to build at the level of effect it is usually demonstrated as operating at. An instant KO is hard to pull off in a point balance game, and this was Dark Champions - basically non-super humans with lots of fun equipment, training and attitude.

 

I've run into similar "realism" complaints about things like choke holds, kicks to the groin and headshots as well as other things usually portrayed as fight enders in movies and TV. I don't know your players but I'll say in my experience that players become much less interested in that kind of "realism" when it's used against them. It often goes right from "realistic" to "That's not fair!" It is kind of unfair. Protagonists in the novels and films have writer's fiat as a defense from those sort of things. Hero characters don't so you either get allot of fights where him that hits first wins or reasons for the taser gun to be out of the picture which probably grow increasingly more contrived.

 

If you're arguing realistic tasers: 4-5d6 NND will usually stun a "normal" (8-10 Con or anyone with less than a 16 Con at 5d6 on average) and a phase (a second or so) later have them on the ground at 0 or negative Stun with a chance of them being going down even faster (a good damage roll). Tasering (tasing?) someone unconscious often takes repeated applications. Instant kill/KO weapons are often as much a product of cinema as taking multiple hits. Which isn't to say they're innately wrong (Hero is cinematic) but "realism", IME, generally means "fits in with preferred notions" than "simulates reality" when it comes to gaming.

[nexus]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I think the point is that while you can do just about anything you want with Hero System, build whatever game you desire and characters for it assuming that means if your GM wants to run NCI: Hoboken that you'll be able to build and play Silver Age Superman in his game is going a little far. There isn't any game, not even Wushu which is about close to truly universal as they come which works under that assumption.

 

But to be more positive, what would those that thing the "hype" on the cover is too much prefer it to say?

[Vondy]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I've run into similar "realism" complaints about things like choke holds' date=' kicks to the groin and headshots as well as other things usually portrayed as fight enders...[/quote']

 

That's because they aren't looking for realism. Realism isn't very much fun. They're looking for verisimilitude. Two different things.

[薔薇語]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Tasers and kicks to the groin, and other like events don't get the same use in Hero as other systems. But some of that is because other systems have it wrong. Think about a taser for example. How long is the shock hitting you before you go down? 5 seconds, that is a lot of time in Hero. Also a taser in real life isn't even a guaranteed take down (KO that is). A physically fit person can take a hit and still be conscious and even capable of movement; just most of them don't want to risk it after being hit.

 

Also think about how hard it is to hit someone square in the groin so as to do the needed damage to KO them. It isn't easy. From personal experience (it hurts just to think about it) but I have kept going after getting one in the crotch, and I am far from average (below average that is).

 

And again choke holds take time to do a KO. Think about watching some MAA fighters and how long it takes them to go under from a choke. I guarantee you that just because they got into it doesn't mean they can't get out in time to stay conscious.

 

In summation, I don't think that Hero is so much at fault here as people are to accustomed to unnatural rules for damage in other systems. That was one thing I hated about DnD modern. The ability to KO someone was WAY to EASY.

 

La Rose

[薔薇語]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

I think matter and antimatter cancel each other out* That's probably the nearest I can come to a realistic absolute: antimatter destroys matter' date=' absolutley. Not all of it, obviously, but a similar amount.[/quote']

 

Damn you found my only Flaw!!!

 

Okay I, obviously, didn't think about Anti-mater. What actually happens to the mater and anti-mater after a collision? Do they actually get negated from existence or just transfer into straight energy (like light, heat, electricity). I lack a physics degree, and a physicist friend so I must yield to the boards for knowledge.

 

 

La Rose

[ghost-angel]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

...actually here I am using hyperbole myself. Never mind 'indestructible and all powerful'' date=' here's an example of something a player wanted - a taser gun. Hit someone with the taser dart and they are pretty much instantly unconscious (or incapacitated) for some time. Not unrealistic. You see it a lot in lots of genres - but, because of the nature of Hero it is expensive to build at the level of effect it is usually demonstrated as operating at. An instant KO is hard to pull off in a point balance game, and this was Dark Champions - basically non-super humans with lots of fun equipment, training and attitude.[/quote']

 

Completely unrealistic actually. A taser will almost never knock someone unconscious. Especially not from a single very short burst.

 

If a taser did immediately put someone down you would see a lot less incidents of "Tased 8 times" in the headlines.

 

You would have to have a sustained electrical pulse to knock someone unconscious. As The Rose points out - in HERO terms this is a long time combat wise, going on for multiple segments.

 

Most of the time when I find games complaining a "system can't do this! how unrealistic!" is more due to their lack of understanding what "this" really is and less to do with the game.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

A case of "The system can't do XXX" is always and I mean always a lack of either experience or imagination on the part of the individual attempting to simulate 'xxx'. There is no other reason. Its not the system, its the player or GM. period.

 

And this applies to every and all game systems ever devised. All of them. Any experienced GM should be able to create a rule that covers any given situation within the contraints of the system at hand. Now whether or not creating the rule/mechanic is easy depends on the system. This is where HERO excells over a lot of other games...its pretty easy for the most part.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

A case of "The system can't do XXX" is always and I mean always a lack of either experience or imagination on the part of the individual attempting to simulate 'xxx'. There is no other reason. Its not the system, its the player or GM. period.

 

And this applies to every and all game systems ever devised. All of them. Any experienced GM should be able to create a rule that covers any given situation within the contraints of the system at hand. Now whether or not creating the rule/mechanic is easy depends on the system. This is where HERO excells over a lot of other games...its pretty easy for the most part.

 

Well put, Nu. I've extrapolated this sort of thing from HERO easily on more than one occasion.

 

Invulnerability? I extend the scale of Damage Reduction to 100% (80 Character Points normal, 120 points Resistant). Limit as desired.

 

Always hits the target? The most powerful Advantage in the rules, Affects Solid World when the Power user is Desolidified, is +2. So, for +2 a character's attack will automatically hit any opponent within range, regardless of OCV vs DCV. Missile Deflection will still stop it, though.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Well put, Nu. I've extrapolated this sort of thing from HERO easily on more than one occasion.

 

Invulnerability? I extend the scale of Damage Reduction to 100% (80 Character Points normal, 120 points Resistant). Limit as desired.

 

Always hits the target? The most powerful Advantage in the rules, Affects Solid World when the Power user is Desolidified, is +2. So, for +2 a character's attack will automatically hit any opponent within range, regardless of OCV vs DCV. Missile Deflection will still stop it, though.

 

Neither of these things are in the book.

 

You can't say that the rules let you do thing X when you have to do thing X by doing something that's not in the rules.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Neither of these things are in the book.

 

You can't say that the rules let you do thing X when you have to do thing X by doing something that's not in the rules.

 

That's a valid point. What I was trying to illustrate is that unlike many other games, HERO gives you quantified benchmarks to facilitate determining how much such things should cost. There's even a chapter in the rulebook, "Changing The System," offering advice, guidelines and examples for altering or adding new Powers, Modifiers, Skills, altering Characteristics, etc., and the effects doing this are likely to have on how the game plays. The examples I gave could be inferred from the advice in that chapter. And how many other games actually discuss changing their own rules?

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Neither of these things are in the book.

 

You can't say that the rules let you do thing X when you have to do thing X by doing something that's not in the rules.

 

The fact that its "not in the book" is irrelevant. The point is that HERO is so internally consistant, that an experienced GM/Player can easily adapt a house rule that applies to any given situation that easily fits within the framework of the gamesystem. Such as in the case of 100% damage reduction for an Invulnerability power (thats how I've been doing it for 15+ years). The argument that "Hero can't do XXX" is moot and shows a lack of imagination or (in most cases) lack of experience on the part of the individual. Hero can handle anything you can imagine. its up to you how that fits into the game itself.

[tesuji]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

The fact that its "not in the book" is irrelevant. The point is that HERO is so internally consistant' date=' that an experienced GM/Player can easily adapt a house rule that applies to any given situation that easily fits within the framework of the gamesystem. Such as in the case of 100% damage reduction for an Invulnerability power (thats how I've been doing it for 15+ years). The argument that "Hero can't do XXX" is moot and shows a lack of imagination or (in most cases) lack of experience on the part of the individual. Hero can handle [b']anything[/b] you can imagine. its up to you how that fits into the game itself.

 

must activate life support: breath hubris...

 

HERO is good at providing you with numbers, thats for sure, but its not necessarily good at providing you with good number, so when it comes to creating your own numbers, it really becomes a case of are you doing the things hero does well or the things it does bad?

 

For example: i can easily build a character as capable as the xman colossus, say early days, on 250 cp. I cannot really come close to building the xman rogue (pre-ms marvel days) on the same points because the costs are so high for either the gazillion form multiform (req handwaving) or the super-huge vpp that she cannot effectively be built on the same budget.

 

however, in say 90% of the encounters, typical hero type supers, colossus will fare better than rogue.

 

the hero points would seem to have you believing differently, that the far more expensive character is more useful.

 

So while the hero numbers may seem consistent, they are not necessarily accurate.

 

then again, i dont think we have to look far before we have hero experts trying to explain to me that total cp aren't a measure of "effectiveness" and how i just dont get it. :-)

[Lord Liaden]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

must activate life support: breath hubris...

 

Once the topic took this turn I could hear you hyperventilating, tesuji.

[schir1964]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

The fact that its "not in the book" is irrelevant...

I'm not sure this statement is true as far as the topic of this thread is concerned.

 

If lacking a mechanic or construction rules that allows one to obtain a desired effect is not relevant to living up to the claim of "Build Anything You Want Or Can Imagine", then it would follow the corollary would be true: "All Game Systems Allow You To Build Anything You Want Or Can Imagine" since any lacking mechanics or rules construction is not relevant.

 

Since I don't think the second statement is true, then I doubt that the initial statement is true.

 

So the point that really matters is how should the Hero System be categorized if it fails the test of Ultimate Toolkit (To Build Anything).

 

- Christopher Mullins

[ghost-angel]

Re: "Outsider" perspective on Hero System

 

Nothing in existence can prepare for every single contingency.

 

The label is just fine.

 

It's people that are the problem.