4th edition support

[Kisska]

I have recently decided to get back into champions mainly due to not liking 4E dnd but I want to use 4th edtion champions rules and background can anyone direct me to where I could get support for that, as I cant find anything for that here really my search skills maybe lacking though.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: 4th edition support

 

Welcome, Kisska! What sort of support were you looking for? Characters, rules help, conversions, campaigns?

[Kisska]

Re: 4th edition support

 

Welcome' date=' Kisska! What sort of support were you looking for? Characters, rules help, conversions, campaigns?[/quote']

pretty much all the above as I am not sure where my bbb is I do have a 4th ed hero rule book and some of the eniemes books and thats about it.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: 4th edition support

 

KillerShrike.com - General HERO

http://www.killershrike.com/Default.aspx?tab=3

 

Hero Adaptations, Conversions, & Resources

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63848

 

Champions (Super) Hero Resources

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31865

 

Hero System 3rd Party Products

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64013

 

San Angelo: City of Heroes (Unstated sourcebooks; Arroyo Verde - High-Tech San Angelo.pdf , PART Sourcebook.pdf , and the San Angelo City of Heroes Map.pdf )

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1597681#post1597681

 

 

Please note the changes from 4th Edition to 5th Edition HERO System are primarily refinements. Many HERO Fan Pages are still 4th Edition, but many have added 5th Edition changes. Essentially clearer, cleaner, and classier. Lord Liaden asked a few good questions. What are you looking for... precisely?

 

 

Thanks

 

 

QM

 

 

P.S.: Changes from 4th to 5th Edition

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4871&highlight=4th+Edition+vs+5th+Edition

 

.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: 4th edition support

 

Okay, Kisska, I think I can provide you with some useful free Internet stuff.

 

To start with, this forum thread has links to several adventures written for Fourth Edition, most (but not all) of them based on characters and groups appearing in 4E or earlier Champions books, but easy enough to adapt: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36759

 

This is an archive of postings to the grand old Red October BBS, once the hub of the HERO online community. There's a host of diverse 4E material there: characters, campaign settings, house rules, book errata and updates, and much other goodness. http://www.mactyre.net/october/Files.html

 

Here are Fourth Edition expansions to the classic Champions villain group Terror Inc., posted to the forums by their creator Steve Perrin: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=177839

 

These Attached files are Fourth Edition HERO stats for all the characters from the Champions: New Millennium line of sourcebooks, originally using the Fuzion game system: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1127464

 

All of the websites below host numerous write-ups for well-known superhero comic and other characters, mostly for 4E HERO:

 

http://www.sysabend.org/champions/gnborh/

 

http://www.mactyre.net/scm/deejay/champs/writeups.html

 

http://x-men.the-wild-hunt.org/

 

http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/mathew/champions.html

 

(NOTE: the links on the webpage above are sometimes cranky and may take you to the author's homepage instead. Just go Back and try the link again.)

 

Finally, should you actually be interested in using some of the published Fifth Edition material, this webpage summarizes the changes from Fourth to Fifth Edition, with interesting commentary thereon. Although it's not complete enough to replace the 5E rulebook (deliberately so), it will allow you to recognize anything you see in the newer books: http://theemerged.blogspot.com/HERO425.htm

[Kisska]

Re: 4th edition support

 

Okay, Kisska, I think I can provide you with some useful free Internet stuff.

 

To start with, this forum thread has links to several adventures written for Fourth Edition, most (but not all) of them based on characters and groups appearing in 4E or earlier Champions books, but easy enough to adapt: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=36759

 

This is an archive of postings to the grand old Red October BBS, once the hub of the HERO online community. There's a host of diverse 4E material there: characters, campaign settings, house rules, book errata and updates, and much other goodness. http://www.mactyre.net/october/Files.html

 

Here are Fourth Edition expansions to the classic Champions villain group Terror Inc., posted to the forums by their creator Steve Perrin: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=177839

 

These Attached files are Fourth Edition HERO stats for all the characters from the Champions: New Millennium line of sourcebooks, originally using the Fuzion game system: http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1127464

 

All of the websites below host numerous write-ups for well-known superhero comic and other characters, mostly for 4E HERO:

 

http://www.sysabend.org/champions/gnborh/

 

http://www.mactyre.net/scm/deejay/champs/writeups.html

 

http://x-men.the-wild-hunt.org/

 

http://www.angelfire.com/scifi2/mathew/champions.html

 

(NOTE: the links on the webpage above are sometimes cranky and may take you to the author's homepage instead. Just go Back and try the link again.)

 

Finally, should you actually be interested in using some of the published Fifth Edition material, this webpage summarizes the changes from Fourth to Fifth Edition, with interesting commentary thereon. Although it's not complete enough to replace the 5E rulebook (deliberately so), it will allow you to recognize anything you see in the newer books: http://theemerged.blogspot.com/HERO425.htm

 

 

Thanks so much this should be a big help and I remember the red october board didnt have internet access for it but my brother-inlaw at the time did and he would put all that he thought I would be interested in on disk so I could access it later, sadly all the info was on my amiga's hard drive when it died. No there isnt to much in 5E I care for I like the 4th ed viper book better then the newer one for example but keeping my eye on things here to see if 6th is going to be good for what I want but as things stand I will proably stick with 4th but not saying 100% yet.

[Kisska]

Re: 4th edition support

 

KillerShrike.com - General HERO

http://www.killershrike.com/Default.aspx?tab=3

 

Hero Adaptations, Conversions, & Resources

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63848

 

Champions (Super) Hero Resources

http://herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31865

 

Hero System 3rd Party Products

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=64013

 

San Angelo: City of Heroes (Unstated sourcebooks; Arroyo Verde - High-Tech San Angelo.pdf , PART Sourcebook.pdf , and the San Angelo City of Heroes Map.pdf )

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?p=1597681#post1597681

 

 

Please note the changes from 4th Edition to 5th Edition HERO System are primarily refinements. Many HERO Fan Pages are still 4th Edition, but many have added 5th Edition changes. Essentially clearer, cleaner, and classier. Lord Liaden asked a few good questions. What are you looking for... precisely?

 

 

Thanks

 

 

QM

 

 

P.S.: Changes from 4th to 5th Edition

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?t=4871&highlight=4th+Edition+vs+5th+Edition

 

.

 

 

Thanks for the information you and LL have been most helpful, I dont find 5th cleaner or classier but thats my personal choice not saying anyone else is wrong but thanks again for the help

[RedneckJedi]

Re: 4th edition support

 

.....is still using a 4th edition rules book.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: 4th edition support

 

.....is still using a 4th edition rules book.

 

No reason to be embarrassed by that. From comments I've seen around here you have plenty of company. 4E is a great game which served the HERO community very well for a dozen years before 5E came out. Lots of HEROphiles prefer the way it handles some elements of the game, and its relative brevity, compared to 5E.

 

Besides, 4E and 5E have a very high degree of compatibility, so it's pretty easy to use stuff for one of them with the other, especially with the help of the change-tracking webpage linked to earlier on this thread.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 4th edition support

 

Almost everything on my website at http://www.killershrike.com should be usable even under 4e rules.

 

I mean...I don't have a perfect recall of all the differences between the two, but at worst some things like Damage Shields will be overcosted, a couple of characters with Multiform or Duplication will math out differently, Heal is a bit off, Regen has a different build behind it but the same effect, etc.

 

The two editions are about 93.3333%* the same and even the differences are usually a matter of degree and not very extreme.

 

 

 

 

 

 

*I made that up, but its not far off

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 4th edition support

 

The two editions are about 93.3333%* the same and even the differences are usually a matter of degree and not very extreme.

 

 

 

 

 

 

*I made that up, but its not far off

 

This is Hero - we're gonna have to see the math

[DevilInSatin]

Re: 4th edition support

 

Almost everything on my website at http://www.killershrike.com should be usable even under 4e rules.

 

...

 

The two editions are about 93.3333%* the same and even the differences are usually a matter of degree and not very extreme.

 

Except Shapeshift, which was turned into some kind of messed-up Images.

 

Stick with 4th edition Shapeshift.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: 4th edition support

 

Except Shapeshift, which was turned into some kind of messed-up Images.

 

Stick with 4th edition Shapeshift.

 

Can I assume your avatar invested in it?

[HawksmoorSD]

Re: 4th edition support

 

I have a lot of the 5E books and while I do like some of the clarifications I tend to use a mix of the two when I run or plan things out. The background in the new Viper is awesome in everything it covers but I still prefer the caps and suggestions on points from 4E. I don't know why but 12 to 14d6 to me still seems like a huge amount of damage for any attack.

 

All the links they've tossed you I'm sure will help a lot and if there's anything I can do by all means drop me a line.

[Sorloc]

Re: 4th edition support

 

I'm glad someone else started this...

 

I'm actually having some issues in a pbp game I'm runnning using 4th ed.

I've got a good friend who's seen the seedy underbelly of the Champions system, and assumes that everyone is secretly going to try something sneaky, and he's pointing out a lot of things I had missed when the characters were first submitted to me.

 

Now a 'discussion' has spilled onto an OOC thread, and I'm not sure what side I'm on, so I come, looking for second-nth opinions.

 

A few of the points: (again, 4th-ed Champions) (40 Active max attack)

 

1 ) Stats (Characteristics) in a Power Framework are, while legal, naughty.

 

2 ) Powers that cost 0 END in a Power Framework are also naughty although legal.

 

3 ) A GM who allows a PC to have a high AP Multipower with variable slots is asking for trouble.

 

4 ) I have capped SPD at 4 for PCs in my game - except for a Speedster archetype. What is a fair SPD cap for a speedster in a 4 SPD world?

 

4a ) What is the max movement I should allow the speedster, balanced against his ability to defend against his own move-by/through?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 4th edition support

 

....

 

A few of the points: (again, 4th-ed Champions) (40 Active max attack)

 

1 ) Stats (Characteristics) in a Power Framework are, while legal, naughty.

 

2 ) Powers that cost 0 END in a Power Framework are also naughty although legal.

 

3 ) A GM who allows a PC to have a high AP Multipower with variable slots is asking for trouble.

 

4 ) I have capped SPD at 4 for PCs in my game - except for a Speedster archetype. What is a fair SPD cap for a speedster in a 4 SPD world?

 

4a ) What is the max movement I should allow the speedster, balanced against his ability to defend against his own move-by/through?

 

1. I agree with this one. I have built flying-bricks with extra STR in the Multipower and found that it is more effective than the same active points in Density Increase. I just use Density or Succor (the reverse of Suppress) instead now. see this character for an example.

 

2. This is only true with regards to the Elemental Control Framework (a search on that subject should come up with many interesting debates).

 

3. I am not sure what difference multi vs. ultra slots makes but I have never seen a problem with Multipowers either way. Active points may be an issue though.

 

4. I recently built Flash and many others of the Classic Silver Age Justice League on 350 points and everyone except Flash has a 4 SPD to his 6 SPD and it seems good on paper.

 

4a. That's a little harder to quantify. I went with 33 combat inches with Flash but these characters are balanced for 12 Damage Class attacks and up to 75 active points in a single power.

[Sorloc]

Re: 4th edition support

 

Thanks for the response!

 

I'm looking forward to hearing a few other opinions...

[Sketchpad]

Re: 4th edition support

 

4. I recently built Flash and many others of the Classic Silver Age Justice League on 350 points and everyone except Flash has a 4 SPD to his 6 SPD and it seems good on paper.

 

I agree with 6 SPD for a speedster ... I usually cap at 4 SPD starting (w/ 6 for Speedsters), but also allow characters to buy higher later IF they can explain it

[DevilInSatin]

Re: 4th edition support

 

Can I assume your avatar invested in it?

 

Nah. Lots and LOTS of COM.

[DevilInSatin]

Re: 4th edition support

 

Interesting. Most games I've played in, SPD tends to be 5, occasionally 6, with a FEW Bricks at 4. Speedsters tend 8-9.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 4th edition support

 

Interesting. Most games I've played in' date=' SPD tends to be 5, occasionally 6, with a FEW Bricks at 4. Speedsters tend 8-9.[/quote']

 

That was my earlier Champions experience as well. I even played a game where the average speed was more like 7-8. A speedster needed a 9 to stand out.

 

Unfortunately, that kind of Speed and Dex creep is the biggest reason that many folks complain that certain character concepts can't be built on 350 points. (This was part of my inspiration for doing another Justice League hero thread).

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 4th edition support

 

For supers, I run a lower SPD campaign.

 

As a general rule of thumb, I prefer physically normal folks to remain between 3 and 4 SPD, trained fighters, super agents, and "normal" MA's to remain between 4 and 5, genetically engineered, chi enabled, mutant reflex scrappy types, Speedster-Bricks, etc to be between 5 and 7, and SPD 8 and above reserved for dedicated Speedsters or other characters with a strong justification for excessively high SPD.

[DevilInSatin]

Re: 4th edition support

 

That was my earlier Champions experience as well. I even played a game where the average speed was more like 7-8. A speedster needed a 9 to stand out.

 

Unfortunately, that kind of Speed and Dex creep is the biggest reason that many folks complain that certain character concepts can't be built on 350 points. (This was part of my inspiration for doing another Justice League hero thread).

Sounds like you're talking about too little difference. In my experience, speedsters should be 3-4 SPD faster than "standard" characters, with bricks 1, rarely 2, SPD slower.

 

The games I've been in, there isn't much "creep"; everyone starts off like that, and increasing SPD is rarely allowed. Which keeps the differences in SPD set, and nobody "creeps up on" others.

 

Still, whatever works for you.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 4th edition support

 

Sounds like you're talking about too little difference. In my experience, speedsters should be 3-4 SPD faster than "standard" characters, with bricks 1, rarely 2, SPD slower.

 

The games I've been in, there isn't much "creep"; everyone starts off like that, and increasing SPD is rarely allowed. Which keeps the differences in SPD set, and nobody "creeps up on" others.

 

SPD creep is inherent in stats of standard Champs characters. A character at the maximum "human normal" SPD of 4 is considered slow by Supers standards. If the norm is a 5 - 6, a SPD of 8 - 9 gets 50% more actions.

 

If the norm is dropped to 4 - that is, only characters for whom SPD is part of their "power suite" exceed a 4, and most characters stay in the 3 - 4 range - then a 6 SPD gets 150% to 200% of the actions enjoyed by non-speedsters.

 

That seems fast enough to me, for both levels of "base Super" SPD.

[TheQuestionMan]

Re: 4th edition support

 

Now its a Speed debate... LOL. I have played characters with Speed 4, but generally prefer Speed 5 to 6. With Speedsters and Martial Artists reaching Speed 7 and 8. I have yet to play a character long enough where I could justify increasing his Speed and could barely comprehend going above 8.

 

Not to mention the starting campaign limit of 80 Active Points, but that is just me.

 

QM