Double Ended Weapons

[Edsel]

I have been looking over the Star Wars d20 Saga Edition stuff. In a lot of the d20 systems their is a definite bonus for using a double ended weapon. However the problem with converting a double ended weapon into Hero system is that it doesn't really grant any boon over a normal weapon. For example a regular lightsaber is just as good as a double-bladed lightsaber in the Hero system. The only benefit Darth Maul gets, in Hero System, is that it strokes his Ego.

 

Has anybody put any thought in to how you would simulate a double ended weapon in Hero System. Does it grant any boon? Should it grant any boon to its wielder?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

Maybe it could provide 1 or 2 (penalty?) levels usable with MPA's, Sweeps and multiple Block attempts. The idea being that you almost never have to swing the weapon more than 90 degrees. I could see house ruling something to that effect with normal staffs as well.

[Beast]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

it is a quarter staff that also slices and dices

I could easily see it having bonuses for parrying

build it as 2 light sabers so the character can fight a 2 weapon style and connect it for quarter staff style

 

you could also do a martial arts style with it

 

while it was different looking weapon from everybody elses

the style fought was a staff/spear then going to a single sword once one end was destroyed

 

this would be a custom weapon not an off the rack that you could buy/find in the armory

it would be a multipower

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

I was wondering about this same thing recently. I’m trying to make a Shaolin Spade for a martial arts project.

[Vulcan]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

The benefit of a double-ended weapon is minimal. The only weapons to be used in such a manner are the quarterstaff (and some really exotic martial arts weapons like the lajatang based on that fighting style), the Greek longspears (which only used the spike on the back end if the primary spearhead got chopped off, so it doesn't really count), and the martial arts/ninja chain weapons (kusari-gama and that sorta thing, which don't really count for this discussion because of the chain). The reason? It's really easy to disembowel yourself using a double-ended weapon.

 

The quarterstaff works because messing up with it means you smack yourself in the arm with a stick. The exotic martial arts weapons work because you train with a staff, and then get the real weapon once you know enough not to kill yourself accidentally. I presume training for a double-lightsaber would work the same way.

 

Having said that, I would say that a double-weapon of the sort being contemplated (that is, both ends the same) should probably be purchased with the Advantange Autofire: Two Shot, and perhaps some levels with multiple blocks.

 

But there are other ways to do it, you should pick the one that works best for you and your GM.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

Right. The problem with statements like this:

 

...the problem with converting a double ended weapon into Hero system is that it doesn't really grant any boon over a normal weapon. For example a regular lightsaber is just as good as a double-bladed lightsaber in the Hero system. The only benefit Darth Maul gets' date=' in Hero System, is that it strokes his Ego.[/quote']

 

is that there is some assumption going on about how to "convert." No one is trying to tell you how to convert your weapon. There is no hard and fast rule you must follow. The lightsaber could grant the wielder godlike powers if you wanted it to. So don't assume the system is limiting your conversion.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

The benefit of a double-ended weapon is minimal. The only weapons to be used in such a manner are the quarterstaff (and some really exotic martial arts weapons like the lajatang based on that fighting style)' date=' the Greek longspears (which only used the spike on the back end if the primary spearhead got chopped off, so it doesn't really count), and the martial arts/ninja chain weapons (kusari-gama and that sorta thing, which don't really count for this discussion because of the chain). The reason? It's really easy to disembowel [i']yourself[/i] using a double-ended weapon.

 

The quarterstaff works because messing up with it means you smack yourself in the arm with a stick. The exotic martial arts weapons work because you train with a staff, and then get the real weapon once you know enough not to kill yourself accidentally. I presume training for a double-lightsaber would work the same way.

 

Having said that, I would say that a double-weapon of the sort being contemplated (that is, both ends the same) should probably be purchased with the Advantange Autofire: Two Shot, and perhaps some levels with multiple blocks.

 

But there are other ways to do it, you should pick the one that works best for you and your GM.

 

I basically agree with every thing Vulcan says here, from my years of experience as a fight choreographer.

A doublebladed lightsaber should include something like a major side effects that if the attack roll misses by a certain amount the weilder takes full damage. Darth Maul bought off the Limitation as a naked differing modifier with the SFX of "The Force".

 

The advantages given to double ended weapons in D&D3 are totally out of scope with their actual utility, IMHO.

 

Oh, and one of the main reasons for putting a buttspike on a polearm is to provide a firmer anchor when setting vs. charge (Extra levels, probably). Having the extra 1/2d6 HKA or so as a backup is just kinda a bonus in the event of a catastrophic weapon failure.

[Mr. Gridlock]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

Hmm, a quarterstaff is a double-ended weapon, and I don't really see it being built with extra levels or special considerations.

 

If the system had a "readying" mechanic, I might say you could ready the weapon faster since you can use either end to strike with.

 

I suppose you could add an extra OCV level or two to reflect the speed with which you can ostensibly strike....

 

In the case of pointy (or energy) weapons, you have something nasty pointing back in your direction. There isn't anything other than Side Effect that I can think of that would reflect your ability to gut yourself if you botch your attack or someone uses your own weapon's proximity to you against you.

[Edsel]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

If the system had a "readying" mechanic, I might say you could ready the weapon faster since you can use either end to strike with.

 

I suppose you could add an extra OCV level or two to reflect the speed with which you can ostensibly strike....

Lightning Reflexes built into the weapon might be a good option. After all the weapon would theoretically have two avenues of attack so the wielder could launch an attack quicker. I also think that I might give the weapon a +1 OCV for multiple blocks. Perhaps a slight PRE bonus to the wielder as well since it is an impressive looking weapon.

 

Quarterstaffs in the Hero System get a +1 OCV for being a versatile weapon. In most Star Wars systems a Jedi gets a bonus when using a weapon of their own manufacture, the theory being that they have attuned with the weapon (its part of the force mysticism). I'd be tempted to give a double-ended lightsaber a +1 OCV for versatility but that could boost it to a +2 which I don't like. I think that I will make all lightsabers +0 to reflect that although they are devastating melee weapons care must be taken to avoid scoring an own goal. The +1 force attunment for self-manufacture is bonus enough.

 

BTW thanks everyone for your input it has gotten my sluggish imagination back on track.

[pinecone]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

You could just buy + X w/ HtH, only vs blocks (and or Dodges) and call it good, you could just buy the weapon twice, and do MPA's with both ends...really it's up to you...in the Hero system you make the choice (and pay accordinly...)

[prestidigitator]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

One of the ones I like for a staff is +3 vs. weapon size/reach penalties. It is a weapon you can easily use both at long range and at short. Very difficult for someone with a small weapon to get "inside" on someone with a staff, and you can also use it at almost the same range as a spear.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

Well lightsabers are supposed to block/deflect laser attacks - give a double-saber a bonus to that.

 

Beyond that, you have an extra glowy stick to show off. D20s "advantages" are there because to them SFX are a) not considered and because "obviously it has to do something! there's two of 'em!" which is a stupid reason for anything.

 

Others have mentioned with better knowledge than I about the Real World issues of double ended weapons.

[Zeropoint]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

A double lightsaber doesn't give you any extra reach over a single lightsaber, because you can't hold it by the glowy part!

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

A double lightsaber doesn't give you any extra reach over a single lightsaber' date=' because you can't hold it by the glowy part![/quote']

Has anybody put any thought in to how you would simulate a double ended weapon in Hero System. Does it grant any boon? Should it grant any boon to its wielder?

Although a lightsaber was what prompted the thought, the OP asks about double ended weapons in general.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

I would probably also allow that a Double Ended Weapon would count as wielding two weapons for purposes of the Off-Hand Weapon Familiarity.

[Greywind]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

...assuming you buy the exotic weapon feat...

[ghost-angel]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

...assuming you buy the exotic weapon feat...

 

I know not this term "Exotic Weapon Feat" of which you speak. . .

 

[Tom]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

One simple option, short of re-writing the stats of a given weapon, is to allow a surprise bonus for the controlling char attempting to use a weapon's versatility for tactical advantage.

[Edsel]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

Here is an excerpt from the house rules that I am working on. It shows how I currently intent to handle double-ended weapons (lightsabers or otherwise).

 

Double-ended Weapons: Any double ended weapon has several minor advantages over normal (non-double-ended) weapons.

 

A double-ended weapon provides its user with two possible avenues of attack. The game effect is to give the user a +1 Lightning Reflex bonus since they can theoretically launch an attack with whichever end is in the ideal position to quickly strike.

 

A double-ended weapon is also better able to block multiple incoming attacks since either end of the weapon can be used to react with. As a result all double-ended weapons grant their wielder a +2 OCV, only for multiple blocks (-1).

 

Some double-ended weapons are especially impressive looking which can give pause to opponents, in this case the GM may choose to grant you a slight bonus to your PRE attack when wielding such a weapon (usually no more than a +1d6).

 

To get any of the bonuses listed above the wielder must have a weapon familiarity with the weapon.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

Frankly, I'm shocked.

 

All of these HERO veterans that posted in here and the only one who suggested CSL's with Sweep is HyperMan.

 

A double bladed weapon (lightsaber or whatever), like the Quarterstaff, would give a +2 OCV bonus with Sweep, allowing the wielder to do a Strike-Strike maneuver with no penalty to their normal OCV. (DCV is another matter entirely). I would also allow for that bonus to transfer to Block so that blocking multiple attacks were easier as well (many posters mentioned that ability)

 

As for the utility of such a weapon in real-life....WHO CARES!?!? we're talking about Jedi and Dark elven blademasters here, not Richard Lionheart or Bohdidahrma.

[Edsel]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

I think I will add the Sweep bonus to my final write-up.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

A double bladed weapon (lightsaber or whatever), like the Quarterstaff, would give a +2 OCV bonus with Sweep, allowing the wielder to do a Strike-Strike maneuver with no penalty to their normal OCV. (DCV is another matter entirely). I would also allow for that bonus to transfer to Block so that blocking multiple attacks were easier as well (many posters mentioned that ability)

 

As for the utility of such a weapon in real-life....WHO CARES!?!? we're talking about Jedi and Dark elven blademasters here, not Richard Lionheart or Bohdidahrma.

 

Hmm. Well, some people care, for some games. I tend to be a little bit leery of Sweep and Rapid Fire myself. Though I use them, I'm somewhat careful about how many bonuses and such I throw in. I like more creative and subtle built-in bonuses to my pre-built weapons I guess.

 

I'd be less inclined to the absolute assertion that it would, too. Like I pointed out earlier, there's no "must" to doing conversions. You could build it with +Pre, Autofire, or AOE if you really wanted to.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

I do understand the idea of the sweep levels, and I even agree in the case of low mass/low relative inertia weapons like quarterstaves and double bladed lightsabers, but the bigger the blade you slap on each end the more mass you have to shift in it's parabola and the harder it will be to do so, coupled with a relatively predictable strike path. I just got back from German longsword class, and I suspect many game designers don't really realize exactly how damn fast you can make an ordinary bastard sword do tricks. Furthermore, ANY hafted weapon has some of the same advantages, except in some cases more pronounced (such as in the case of Block maneuvers).

For example... I spent years sparring with a bardiche with a 5 foot haft, a Great Axe in game terms, and by exploiting the balance difference between the blade end and the butt end I can move the butt around in a parry using the weight of the blade to provide so much inertia to the butt that I've both disarmed unaware opponents and actually bent swords with the force of the impact from the wooden haft. It's actually a lot like spinning a color-guard ensign, in fact.

 

There really aren't any 'magic bullet' weapon designs that are vastly superior to all others, tho swords come close, which is why they gradually won the "most common tool of battle" position.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

Hmm. Well, some people care, for some games. I tend to be a little bit leery of Sweep and Rapid Fire myself. Though I use them, I'm somewhat careful about how many bonuses and such I throw in. I like more creative and subtle built-in bonuses to my pre-built weapons I guess.

 

I'd be less inclined to the absolute assertion that it would, too. Like I pointed out earlier, there's no "must" to doing conversions. You could build it with +Pre, Autofire, or AOE if you really wanted to.

 

 

of course, of course. Far be it for me to dictate how others play their games. And as usual, there is no "one way" to do things in HERO. I simply thought that the sweep bonus was a huge no-brainer. At least for those who are inclined to use it in their games.

 

As someone mentioned earlier, there's also 2-shot Autofire, two HKA's linked together, one big HKA with Reduced Penetrating, the list goes on.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Double Ended Weapons

 

I do understand the idea of the sweep levels, and I even agree in the case of low mass/low relative inertia weapons like quarterstaves and double bladed lightsabers, but the bigger the blade you slap on each end the more mass you have to shift in it's parabola and the harder it will be to do so, coupled with a relatively predictable strike path. I just got back from German longsword class, and I suspect many game designers don't really realize exactly how damn fast you can make an ordinary bastard sword do tricks. Furthermore, ANY hafted weapon has some of the same advantages, except in some cases more pronounced (such as in the case of Block maneuvers).

For example... I spent years sparring with a bardiche with a 5 foot haft, a Great Axe in game terms, and by exploiting the balance difference between the blade end and the butt end I can move the butt around in a parry using the weight of the blade to provide so much inertia to the butt that I've both disarmed unaware opponents and actually bent swords with the force of the impact from the wooden haft. It's actually a lot like spinning a color-guard ensign, in fact.

 

There really aren't any 'magic bullet' weapon designs that are vastly superior to all others, tho swords come close, which is why they gradually won the "most common tool of battle" position.

 

Yeah, but the idea of a twin-bladed weapon that one whirls around as fast as a quarterstaff and can slay a dozen attackers in the blink of an eye is quite erection inducing.