Telekinesis Martial Arts

[inertial]

Sorry if this is somewhere in a rulebook and I just couldn't find it, but I am curious:

 

Can I buy Martial Arts maneuvers to work with my telekinesis, for example martial strike/hold, etc.? What kind of Power Advantage would this be?

 

Thanks for the help.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

Yes, with GM Permission. Its not an Advantage, its just the defined element of the Martial Art.

 

This character has such abilities:

 

Vesper

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

Weapon Element. Open Hand base, +1 point for your TK. Get it, love it, kick ass with it.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

God, I wish my GM would let me buy this.

[Wyrm Ouroboros]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

Why wouldn't he? TK practically equals 'hands at range'.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

Why wouldn't he? TK practically equals 'hands at range'.

Some people feel that the extra DCs are unbalancing, which I can understand. And things like extra STR, only to hold, really seems to make less sense with TK than regular STR. I’ve seen some sentiments of “just tone the TK down and buy an EB.” Not saying it’s my view, but it’s out there.

[Lucius]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

Fine Manipulation may be required, especially for certain manuevers (Nerve Strike for example)

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Riding, Range. Now I can ride that palindromedary from way over here

[BNakagawa]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

Why wouldn't he? TK practically equals 'hands at range'.

 

He thinks it's unbalanced. Won't budge. It's his game, it's his call.

 

He's probably right. I'd take unfair advantage of it, given the opportunity

[JmOz]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

Of course their is nothing to stop you from taking a bunch of 3 point skill levels with a tk MA and making a TK MA MP (For instance a nerve strike is just a EB, Indirect, NND)...you might find you are better off that way

Depending on manuevers you wanted you may find that you are cheaper and have higher numbers than with the MA package

[Sean Waters]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

TK Martial Grab with extra 'STR' from DCs and then raise the poor sucker into the air a couple of hundred metres. That is the sort of thing that makes TK MA so very dangerous.

 

Possibly.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

TK is, explicitly, ranged Strength. In fact, we are prevented from applying Ranged to STR for the express reason that TK exists. TK functions in all ways as Strength usable at range, and can do all the things Strength alone can do only more so since it is not (generally) constrained to the exertion of physical lims and body physics. Among its uses, TK can be used to grab and strike at a minimum, which are Maneuvers. Martial Maneuvers are just like standard Maneuvers save that they are generally better but consequently cost a few points each. There is no logical reason then why Martial Maneuvers cannot be used with Ranged STR, aka TK. Arguments of "too powerful" fall apart in the face of an analysis of the costs involved and the actual mechanics; it's an expensive proposition to use MA's w/ TK.

 

Looked at from a different perspective, Stretching is the other way to effectively apply Range to Strength and MA's are allowed in conjunction with Stretching. So what is the difference, exactly? With Stretching you pay for inches of Range usable with your base STR, with TK you pay for a separate pool of STR with the Ranged advantage applied.

 

As an aside, this basic dichotomy is what led to Rook, a "short ranged TK" character, being designed with stretching usable with invisible extra limbs, which has proven to be one of the most effective character builds my games have ever seen.

[Peregrine]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

TK is, explicitly, ranged Strength. In fact, we are prevented from applying Ranged to STR for the express reason that TK exists. TK functions in all ways as Strength usable at range, and can do all the things Strength alone can do only more so since it is not (generally) constrained to the exertion of physical lims and body physics. Among its uses, TK can be used to grab and strike at a minimum, which are Maneuvers. Martial Maneuvers are just like standard Maneuvers save that they are generally better but consequently cost a few points each. There is no logical reason then why Martial Maneuvers cannot be used with Ranged STR, aka TK. Arguments of "too powerful" fall apart in the face of an analysis of the costs involved and the actual mechanics; it's an expensive proposition to use MA's w/ TK.

 

Looked at from a different perspective, Stretching is the other way to effectively apply Range to Strength and MA's are allowed in conjunction with Stretching. So what is the difference, exactly? With Stretching you pay for inches of Range usable with your base STR, with TK you pay for a separate pool of STR with the Ranged advantage applied.

 

As an aside, this basic dichotomy is what led to Rook, a "short ranged TK" character, being designed with stretching usable with invisible extra limbs, which has proven to be one of the most effective character builds my games have ever seen.

 

"Must spread Rep around, etc."

 

You nailed this one cold.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

The DCV bonuses of some HTH Martial Art maneuvers is something else that is hard to explain when combined with Telekinesis (why does does doing something over there make a character harder to hit over here?).

 

 

I often try to avoid this issue by using Ranged MA maneuvers for TK instead.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

Do STR bonuses for MA (Martial Grab et al) add directly to your TK STR? I assume so. That makes MA a very cheap way to pump up your TK grab STR, doesn't it? TK is usually more than enough to lift any opponent but is unlikely to be enough to hold on to the stronger ones. Adding MA, whilst legal of course, points out the dodginess of the damage adding rules once more.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

.........................

 

Looked at from a different perspective, Stretching is the other way to effectively apply Range to Strength and MA's are allowed in conjunction with Stretching. So what is the difference, exactly? With Stretching you pay for inches of Range usable with your base STR, with TK you pay for a separate pool of STR with the Ranged advantage applied.

 

...................

 

 

Well yes, but if you stretch grab someone they can grab, and hurt you. If you TK grab someone they can not. That is a substantial difference.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

The DCV bonuses of some HTH Martial Art maneuvers is something else that is hard to explain when combined with Telekinesis (why does does doing something over there make a character harder to hit over here?).

 

True, but Grab already carries DCV penalties and that's one of the basic things done with TK. However TK Grab's DCV penalties only apply vs the target, which is a special exemption. As far as DCV bonuses, I treat them the same way -- they only apply vs the target of a Martial Maneuver used w/ TK, not vs everyone. This is fair, balanced, and consistent w/ the existing TK Grab rule.

 

I often try to avoid this issue by using Ranged MA maneuvers for TK instead.

That seems even weirder to me, unless you are calling the SFX of the maneuvers "TK" and not actually using them in conjunction w/ TK. I mean, TK already grants range, so range + range = ?.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

Well yes' date=' but if you stretch grab someone they can grab, and hurt you. If you TK grab someone they can not. That is a substantial difference.[/quote']

 

There is also a substantial price difference.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

Do STR bonuses for MA (Martial Grab et al) add directly to your TK STR? I assume so. That makes MA a very cheap way to pump up your TK grab STR' date=' doesn't it? TK is usually more than enough to lift any opponent but is unlikely to be enough to hold on to the stronger ones. Adding MA, whilst legal of course, points out the dodginess of the damage adding rules once more.[/quote']

 

Damage classes already add to advantaged attacks without changing their cost. This is really no different.

 

 

Bottom line, I've allowed it in actual play for different characters over the years, and while it is a strong synergy and can be used to very good effect by a wily player, I've never found it to be broken.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

There is also a substantial price difference.

 

Depends on how much range you want - stretching gets expensive quickly, but the point is there is a real difference between STR+Range and STR+Stretching.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

Damage classes already add to advantaged attacks without changing their cost. This is really no different.

 

Agreed, but that makes no sense, as a rule, hence my my comment about dodgy damage adding. Well, it makes sense from the POV of simplicity, and probably wouldn't be out of place in a heroic campaign but is an anomaly in the game seen as a whole.

 

 

Bottom line' date=' I've allowed it in actual play for different characters over the years, and while it is a strong synergy and can be used to very good effect by a wily player, I've never found it to be broken.[/quote']

 

That's an important bottom line, but look at this, to take an extreme example:

 

15 Telekinesis (10 STR) 1

3 Martial Grab -1 -1 Grab Two Limbs, 60 STR for holding on

3 Martial Throw +0 +1 10d6 +v/5, Target Falls

4 Martial Strike +0 +2 12d6 Strike

1 Weapon Element: Default Element, Empty Hand

32 +8 HTH Damage Class(es)

 

Now that comes to 58 points and you get enough TK STR to lift 90% of opponents off the ground and enough TK Grab STR to keep them from breaking loose. Once you have them you can raise them up to 75" in the air, and, if your TK punches are not enough to KO them, you can drop them. The dropping tactic does not work against fliers, but you can still pluck them out of the air and hold them (you use the grab STR for that).

 

I appreciate that most GMs would just laugh at this but even when a less apparently extreme version is mooted, say 30 STR TK with the same manouvres but only 4 damage classes - same basic effect and totals - although it then comes to 72 points. However the cost total may well be missed as it is split between synergistic effects.

 

The point I'm aiming at is that the MA damage adding rule is certainly simple but I'd suggest it is also simplistic - as I think this example points makes clear.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

Depends on how much range you want - stretching gets expensive quickly' date=' but the point is there is a real difference between STR+Range and STR+Stretching.[/quote']

 

I didn't say there was no difference, I said they are two different ways to use Strength at range. In fact, I discuss them in terms of their differences. Honestly, Sean, sometimes I think you argue just to argue.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

Agreed, but that makes no sense, as a rule, hence my my comment about dodgy damage adding. Well, it makes sense from the POV of simplicity, and probably wouldn't be out of place in a heroic campaign but is an anomaly in the game seen as a whole.

 

 

 

 

That's an important bottom line, but look at this, to take an extreme example:

 

15 Telekinesis (10 STR) 1

3 Martial Grab -1 -1 Grab Two Limbs, 60 STR for holding on

3 Martial Throw +0 +1 10d6 +v/5, Target Falls

4 Martial Strike +0 +2 12d6 Strike

1 Weapon Element: Default Element, Empty Hand

32 +8 HTH Damage Class(es)

 

Now that comes to 58 points and you get enough TK STR to lift 90% of opponents off the ground and enough TK Grab STR to keep them from breaking loose. Once you have them you can raise them up to 75" in the air, and, if your TK punches are not enough to KO them, you can drop them. The dropping tactic does not work against fliers, but you can still pluck them out of the air and hold them (you use the grab STR for that).

 

I appreciate that most GMs would just laugh at this but even when a less apparently extreme version is mooted, say 30 STR TK with the same manouvres but only 4 damage classes - same basic effect and totals - although it then comes to 72 points. However the cost total may well be missed as it is split between synergistic effects.

 

The point I'm aiming at is that the MA damage adding rule is certainly simple but I'd suggest it is also simplistic - as I think this example points makes clear.

 

I dont have time to take this apart by the numbers, but a) you have to take Fine Manipulation w/ TK in order to use Maneuvers with it, and 32 points on DC's would have bought more STR for the TK which would be more generally usable than just for damage just with a small set of Maneuvers c) you seem to argue from a position of "don't allow interesting effects because they might be too powerful" while I argue from a position of "the entire purpose of the HERO System is to be able to model powerful effects and make interesting characters".

 

I'll allow something and then decide if its too powerful based upon real experience, whereas your approach seems to be to bar things out of hand based upon notional concerns.

 

The system is big, the system is flexible, the system is more robust than you seem to give it credit for.

 

Some things do prove to be too uber in practice (UAA Flight for instance), but IMO the only way to really make that determination fairly is to try it and see. Try TK + MA maneuvers and then come back and argue it as being too powerful based upon real, prolonged experience. I don't think you'll find it to be so, based upon my own first hand knowledge of it working ok in practice. It's certainly a YIELD sign ability set, but I wouldn't personally consider it to be a STOP sign by default (though a particularly "pushed" version of it could certainly migrate in that direction).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

I didn't say there was no difference' date=' I said they are two different ways to use Strength at range. In fact, I discuss them in terms of their differences. Honestly, Sean, sometimes I think you argue just to argue.[/quote']

 

 

No, you ASKED what the difference was. A personal attack on me does no credit to your argument.

 

Looked at from a different perspective, Stretching is the other way to effectively apply Range to Strength and MA's are allowed in conjunction with Stretching. So what is the difference, exactly?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

I dont have time to take this apart by the numbers, but a) you have to take Fine Manipulation w/ TK in order to use Maneuvers with it, and 32 points on DC's would have bought more STR for the TK which would be more generally usable than just for damage just with a small set of Maneuvers c) you seem to argue from a position of "don't allow interesting effects because they might be too powerful" while I argue from a position of "the entire purpose of the HERO System is to be able to model powerful effects and make interesting characters".

 

I'll allow something and then decide if its too powerful based upon real experience, whereas your approach seems to be to bar things out of hand based upon notional concerns.

 

The system is big, the system is flexible, the system is more robust than you seem to give it credit for.

 

Some things do prove to be too uber in practice (UAA Flight for instance), but IMO the only way to really make that determination fairly is to try it and see. Try TK + MA maneuvers and then come back and argue it as being too powerful based upon real, prolonged experience. I don't think you'll find it to be so, based upon my own first hand knowledge of it working ok in practice. It's certainly a YIELD sign ability set, but I wouldn't personally consider it to be a STOP sign by default (though a particularly "pushed" version of it could certainly migrate in that direction).

 

You do not have to take fine manipulation to use martial manouvres, just ones that require finesse, like nerve strike. You can specifically use grab and punch without fine manipulation. Throw, I'll give you, is a matter for consideration but it was just there as a filler anyway.

 

I'm frankly sick and tired of you having a go at my opinions on a personal basis. Argue the points or shut up.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Telekinesis Martial Arts

 

...Honestly' date=' Sean, sometimes I think you argue just to argue.[/quote']

 

You don't say...