GM help with The Guild of Swords

[Tech]

After being a GM for over 20 years, I pretty much know my weaknesses while GM'ing so I'm asking for suggestions on a somewhat villainous group I created for my Champions campaign: The Guild of Swords.

 

The Guild is a guild for medieval enthusiasts, generally consisting of well-to-do or influential people, by invitation only. Underneath this exterior is a group of people seeking to increase their wealth and/or power. This may include means that are considered underhanded, sneaky, trickery or theft, but that's as far as it goes: no pyscho killers/murders, no ruining people's lives, etc.

 

As a GM, I would like to use them to be a pain in the heroes backside. However, and this is my weak side, I do not want the heroes to be able to turn them over to the law enforcement - even if directly confronting the heroes. They will never be any direct way for the heroes to show that these people are criminal behind the scenes.

 

One of the heroes has a collection of swords used in his hero ID so I've already introduced the Guild, and for now, the heroes (and players)1 think they're a cool guild. Time for the Guild of Swords to strike...

 

Any suggestions how to introduce a group like this?

[Supreme Serpent]

Re: GM help with The Guild of Swords

 

As a GM' date=' I would like to use them to be a pain in the heroes backside. However, and this is my weak side, I do not want the heroes to be able to turn them over to the law enforcement - even if directly confronting the heroes. They will never be any direct way for the heroes to show that these people are criminal behind the scenes.[/quote']

 

I would just note that this would be very unsatisfying as a player. It might be hard, it might take a lot of work, but the PCs should be able to take them down if they work at it.

 

Once they realize these are bad guys and the PCs want to take them down, if they can make no progress they'll get pretty frustrated. Expect dissatisfied players, characters turning to more vigilante methods, or both.

 

As for introducing them, do it slowly. Let them seem just like a group of rich folks with an interest in medieval stuff. Maybe the heroes even come to them from time to time for help with medieval-themed problems, taking advantage of their knowledge. Maybe they start giving the heroes tips that help the heroes bust folks that just happen to be rivals of Guild members. Eventually the heroes start noticing bits of info and seeing patterns - will probably dismiss at first due to their friendly history with them, but over time...

 

The "no real bad stuff" angle is also possible (even likely) to be turned on its head. It only takes one bad apple to ruin that. If one member is willing to strongarm and blackmail the others they could take over and turn the group in a more sinister direction, confident that the others are too squeamish to respond in kind. If that happens, one of the braver members might even contact the heroes for help in stopping the Guild, maybe trying to get immunity/better deal out of it.

[Tech]

Re: GM help with The Guild of Swords

 

I would just note that this would be very unsatisfying as a player. It might be hard, it might take a lot of work, but the PCs should be able to take them down if they work at it.

 

Once they realize these are bad guys and the PCs want to take them down, if they can make no progress they'll get pretty frustrated. Expect dissatisfied players, characters turning to more vigilante methods, or both.

 

The basis of it is not to be frustrating to players but to prevent a quick demise of the organization. Where would the Empire be in Star Wars if it was able to be easily beaten, or for that matter Lex Luthor? Long-term use is the objective. I could refine my statement to be 'they won't be able to get anything on them for a long time even if they know the guild isn't what it pretends to be'. There will not be dissatisfied players or characters - I know what my friends like and don't like; a campaign doesn't survive 20+ years by frustrating people.

 

As for introducing them, do it slowly. Let them seem just like a group of rich folks with an interest in medieval stuff. Maybe the heroes even come to them from time to time for help with medieval-themed problems, taking advantage of their knowledge. Maybe they start giving the heroes tips that help the heroes bust folks that just happen to be rivals of Guild members. Eventually the heroes start noticing bits of info and seeing patterns - will probably dismiss at first due to their friendly history with them, but over time...

This is more what I was looking for.

 

The "no real bad stuff" angle is also possible (even likely) to be turned on its head. It only takes one bad apple to ruin that. If one member is willing to strongarm and blackmail the others they could take over and turn the group in a more sinister direction, confident that the others are too squeamish to respond in kind. If that happens, one of the braver members might even contact the heroes for help in stopping the Guild, maybe trying to get immunity/better deal out of it.

I seriously doubt I'll go this route. As the Guild becomes more and more known by the characters, I'll see where things go.

[bubba smith]

Re: GM help with The Guild of Swords

 

wasn't there a book series once titled guild of swords?

[Certified]

Re: GM help with The Guild of Swords

 

A couple of things come to mind. They have money, real money so I'm suspecting anything they are involved in can be hidden or justified by their army of lawyers. The heroes get evidence get them charged, lawyers step in and keep everything in limbo for sixty plus years.

 

Much like the lawyers concept is the idea that this Guild are aficionados not master criminals. Contract anything remotely illegal through third parties. Here middle management is good, just ask Jeff Skilling. By adding multiple layers between the Guild and their activities it insulates them from any implication. Sure a middle man might go down every once in a while but if they know by keeping quite the Guild will set them up for life they'll never talk, it would be an honor and a duty to go down for them (uh .. huh huh... dirty mind moving on.) By managing through the middlemen the Guild can continue to be buddy buddy with the teams weapon master even use that relationship as a kind of proof of innocence.

 

Lastly, these are people of power so if their goal is to take the road less traveled to gain power they may very well target their own businesses and companies for things like bombings or extortion, collecting the money from the heist and insurance from the attack. They may even go to the team through their contact for help in stopping who ever is targeting them. Makes them look innocent again.

 

Hope these ideas help.

[GoldenAge]

Re: GM help with The Guild of Swords

 

If they're all dignitaries from other lands they might have diplomatic immunity. They'd face deportation if law enforcement is presented with solid evidence of felonious crimes, but, other than that, they'd remain free as birds. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diplomatic_immunity)

[Houston GM]

Re: GM help with The Guild of Swords

 

Underneath this exterior is a group of people seeking to increase their wealth and/or power. This may include means that are considered underhanded' date=' sneaky, trickery or theft, but that's as far as it goes[/quote']

Someone starts blackmailing a DNPC, contact or follower. Extorting money is fine, but influencing their actions is better. (i.e. A city council member suddenly votes for something against his/her beliefs.)

 

The politician has some form of sexual fetish. A group of rich and influential people with similar tastes got together so they could enjoy themselves in private. All of them could be trusted, because they all had a lot to lose if their secrets were exposed. Only people who fit that description were invited, for everyone's security.

 

Everyone kept their mouth shut, because they would face ruin if anyone found out.

 

As months passed and everyone realized they couldn trust the other members of the group, they relaxed and "expressed themselves" more freely inside the group.

 

But after a year, someone managed to get pictures and video from a couple of the group's parties. They started blackmailing the members, beginning with the founder. He decided to pay the blackmail, but warned the other members. In the coming weeks, they were contacted with demands of money or favors (like voting specific ways).

 

The ringleader of the blackmail scam is the founding member of the group (and the first blackmail victim). He's a wealthy entrepreneur; exposure of his "secret" would hurt him in the short term, but it wouldn't ruin him in the long run. Since he's an integral part of the group and one of the victims, he's above suspicion in the blackmail scam (or as much above suspicion as anyone else).

 

To complicate matters, many members of the group suspect that one of the newer members is behind the blackmail. One of the blackmail victims decides to take matters into his own hands and murders the new member. Nobody in the group knows who committed the murder, but some suspect that the blackmailer committed the murder as a warning to the rest of them.

 

So The Guild of Swords has a successful blackmail scam that nets them money and political power. The invenstigation into the blackmail get derailed by a murder mystery (which the PCs can feel good about solving). And the murderer becomes the fall guy for the blackmail scheme ... even though he was one of the victims.

[pinecone]

Re: GM help with The Guild of Swords

 

After being a GM for over 20 years, I pretty much know my weaknesses while GM'ing so I'm asking for suggestions on a somewhat villainous group I created for my Champions campaign: The Guild of Swords.

 

The Guild is a guild for medieval enthusiasts, generally consisting of well-to-do or influential people, by invitation only. Underneath this exterior is a group of people seeking to increase their wealth and/or power. This may include means that are considered underhanded, sneaky, trickery or theft, but that's as far as it goes: no pyscho killers/murders, no ruining people's lives, etc.

 

As a GM, I would like to use them to be a pain in the heroes backside. However, and this is my weak side, I do not want the heroes to be able to turn them over to the law enforcement - even if directly confronting the heroes. They will never be any direct way for the heroes to show that these people are criminal behind the scenes.

 

One of the heroes has a collection of swords used in his hero ID so I've already introduced the Guild, and for now, the heroes (and players)1 think they're a cool guild. Time for the Guild of Swords to strike...

 

Any suggestions how to introduce a group like this?

 

They can limit themselves to data colection, and use Mercinarys for the tuff stuff....I once used a simular group, the Intel guy was also a Master of Disguise and always disguised himself as a Hero, and told the mercs he was hiering them as a publicity stunt, when captured they talked... And the villians TV station turned coverage up to "10"

[Utech]

Re: GM help with The Guild of Swords

 

Consider having the Guild use the heroes to remove some of their opposition. They can point the heroes at some bad guys -- maybe even try to hire the heroes outright! After several episodes in which our heroes heroically take down nasty elements in town, they might notice how the Guild is getting more and more powerful.

[KA.]

Re: GM help with The Guild of Swords

 

Tech,

It sounds like you know your group and their preferences, but this sort of bait and switch seems way too common for my tastes, as either a player or GM.

I have no idea about the overall tone of your campaign, but a lot of what I read about other campaigns seems to feel like Charlie Brown trying to kick the football . . .

Here's a group, they seem cool, the players make friends with them . . .

Ha! Ha! Ha!

They are eeeeevullllll!

You were fools to trust them!

 

Again, this may not portray how your campaign works at all.

 

However, if I were doing something like you are describing, I would do something like this . . .

 

The group is exactly what it appears to be.

A group of wealthy people that have an interest in medieval culture.

At some point, due to their lives of wealth and inactivity, along with a healthy dose of old fashioned values, some of them become vigilantes.

(Why does this story sound familiar? )

Anyway, the vigilante branch starts showing up, masked and disguised of course, and doing good, fading into the background before they can be identified.

The problem is, over time, some of the other members decide that they believe in some other old fashioned ideas like might makes right.

Which means that the overall group would be noble, if somewhat misguided in some people's minds, and other parts would be corrupt.

The players would be in the same fix eventually.

If they exposed the greedier, baser members of the group, they would also be taking down the noble vigilantes with them.

That way you can have the same type of conflict without making the player characters into fools for trusting the group in the first place.

 

KA.

[Tech]

Re: GM help with The Guild of Swords

 

Heya K.A., thanks for the input. Yes, I've read alot about these kinds of bait and switch and too many of them are of the D&D DM mindset where the DM is trying to out-think the players for his/her own glory.

 

Fortunately for this campaign, the bait and switch thing occured so rarely, I can only count... (thinks) wow, it's only happened once and not even in the Champions campaign. It was so effective, the players - not to mention the PCs - could hardly react. It was one of those 'Everyone liked it so much they remember it years later' events. So, this would actually be a first for the Champions campaign.

 

Nah, I'm not into making PC's or Players feel foolish for trusting someone who turns out to be on the wrong side; the players are way too experienced for the obvious things. I've give your idea some thought - I'm not against revising my basic premise if something better comes up.

[ChampionsLawyer]

Re: GM help with The Guild of Swords

 

So everyone here has mentioned some good things. I'd try like heck to set things up this way (and I'm liberally taking from what's here under the auspices of "it'd be my idea too".)

 

1. The guild is made up of various well-off people with various individual capabilities. One of them should be a super in the conventional sense (but secretly - even to the guild members) and several should be in the guild and appreciate and need the guild but be using it to further their own connections and agendas.

 

Reason: The conventional super could be using everyone's connections to get other things done and would give your super group someone to "defeat" at the end of the day that may or may not take out the guild proper (as the other members would feign ignorance and mind control etc. - they're not stupid)

 

The others could be low-yield supers in their own right considering talents, perks, stats like INT etc.

 

2. You're best off making the guild membership global and some of the members have diplomatic immunity or high connections or high flexibility/travel/disposable income. Another subplot could be the guild contracting with people to find out the groups secret IDs. There are many, many ways to give the guild influence that can affect your super group and make the guild a problem, without direct confrontation. Personally, I think direct confrontation is a way to cheapen the concept overall. You want this thing to be "cool" and "memorable". Nothing says "standard fare" quite like hired mercs.

 

3. The guild should not go after conventional material things. Have them go looking for the grail. Have them try to clone Jesus from DNA off the shroud of Turin.. have them be the direct lineage of the Knights Templar and have a problem with the Hospitalers or the Order of St. John.. The Guild of Swords sounds evocative.. they should have a mission that defines them even if it's only flavor. Players don't remember that they beat up someone. They remember the unusual plot and the feeling that they have no idea what the heck is going on.

 

4. Lastly, for the feeling that they're something really special, make sure that whatever the players are doing with them and whatever plot they're heavily involved in, the guild has it's own stuff going on. The players should never feel as if the guild is pre-occupied with them. However, if your players become pre-occupied with the guild.. touchdown.

 

I feel strongly about point 1 though. Your players should eventually feel like they can take down someone and get rid of the guild problem for a period of time. When they come back in another plot at another time, the fact that they recur over time only plays into their status as an org with historical significance that predates them and may last beyond them.

 

Two cents.

A

 

PS. Forgot about the legal point. If you do things well, yes the guild can hold things up in limbo forever, but you may also be able to have the guild lose some legal fights or acquiesce a few in order to achieve a greater goal. Your players should question what they gave up to win the day's battle and be just a little on edge even in their successes. (especially when over time they learn about their enemies.)

[Peregrine]

Re: GM help with The Guild of Swords

 

So everyone here has mentioned some good things. I'd try like heck to set things up this way (and I'm liberally taking from what's here under the auspices of "it'd be my idea too".)

 

1. The guild is made up of various well-off people with various individual capabilities. One of them should be a super in the conventional sense (but secretly - even to the guild members) and several should be in the guild and appreciate and need the guild but be using it to further their own connections and agendas.

 

Reason: The conventional super could be using everyone's connections to get other things done and would give your super group someone to "defeat" at the end of the day that may or may not take out the guild proper (as the other members would feign ignorance and mind control etc. - they're not stupid)

 

The others could be low-yield supers in their own right considering talents, perks, stats like INT etc.

 

For a published character who just screams for this role, see Invictus in Evil Unleashed (pp. 87-90).