Narf the Mouse Posted June 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... No, I did not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Heck, you could purchase Running as a Movement not based on STR. Any non-muscled powered SFX will do the trick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kenn Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... In 4e there was a late addition to the system (Horror Hero and one of the almanacs) with Spirit rules. I never tried them, so I don't know how balanced they are. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... You can get a reasonable approximation of a character with no physical body, and, I suppose, 'a reasonable approximation' is all you can ever ask for: who knows how (say) possession 'really' works? Getting rid of STR prevents you using STR but doesn't actually get rid of a physical body. Gravity still works on desolid characters (but gravity wouldn't work on a character with no mass), and flight can never properly compensate for gravity because they work differently: in fact flight 'up' would still be at half velocity. KB works on bodyless characters, and it shouldn't. You still get other weird stuff happening (you can still have your 'no STR' drained, for example), which all means that you can build and play a character with no Body, but you are not doing it because Hero enables it, you are just ignoring the bits that don't work for you. You're playing something else. It is slso a sfx interaction nightmare. So, you can not build a true 'No Body' player character with Hero. It would be easy enough to build a 'no body' template - in fact there is one in the computer/AI section - it is just that it is not costed and set up to be used as a PC. I suppose the other thing you can not do is 'legally' build an automaton PC. You can build a no body character. You just can't play it. Which is a shame. It would be nice to be able to build and play a 'true' AI controlled robot, and i can not really see why that bit of th erules system is not enabled for PCs - all the heard work has already been done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Personally... everything has a mass. Even a light particle has mass. You can't not have mass. Non-Corporeal has nothing to do with mass. it's just a lot less mass, possibly in some kind of inbetween energy state. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... ... and flight can never properly compensate for gravity because they work differently: in fact flight 'up' would still be at half velocity. ... Um.. yes it can. No Gravity Penalty Advantage: (The Ultimate Speedster, page 29) A Movement Power with this Advantage does not suffer the 1/2 speed restriction when moving upward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Logan D. Hurricanes Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... There is one other trick to be tried for the bodiless: the old astral projection routine. The 'body' is actually the visible FX of a trans-dimensional clairsentience. The real body, whatever that is, remains hidden away in a pocket dimension. No STR to drain, no knockback, no mass, no way to be affected by other desolids automatically. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utech Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... There is one other trick to be tried for the bodiless: the old astral projection routine. The 'body' is actually the visible FX of a trans-dimensional clairsentience. The real body' date=' whatever that is, remains hidden away in a pocket dimension. No STR to drain, no knockback, no mass, no way to be affected by other desolids automatically.[/quote'] I like this quite a bit. Unfortunately, it still leaves us with a physical body somewhere. I don't want a physical body somewhere -- even in another dimension. Still, this is the closest I've seen to really modeling a character made of living light. Someone with Affects Desolid on his Strength could grab a character with no body (and no Strength). Someone with Affects Desolid on his Entangle could entangle a character with no body (and no Strength). Hyper-Man, you asked for a specific example I'm trying to model. I don't have one. I was just exploring the topic of this thread and looking for ideas that might confound the Hero System. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Well, as I stated earlier... That depends. In many cases it's actually the special effect that someone is trying to model that's ridiculously complicated. A complicated sfx usually requires a complicated build. A 'hypothetical' special effect is probably the most complicated one of all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whitewings Posted June 24, 2009 Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Here's something I see no obvious way to model in Hero: Travelling from Wheel of Time. Travelling allows the channeler to go from here to there[i/] without traversing the space between. Teleportation, plain and simple. Except that travelling requires a detailed knowledge of here, but no knowledge at all of there, and there can be, in theory, another planet entirely. It's been shown that a travelling gate can reach from one side of a planet to the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narf the Mouse Posted June 24, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... 'Safe Blind Teleport', 'Must Know Own Location In Detail'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... I suppose the other thing you can not do is 'legally' build an automaton PC. "Playing" an automaton would pretty much amount to being the one to roll the dice for it - it has no will, only programmed responses, so there are no choices to make. If it DOEs have will and makes choices, it is not an automaton. You can build a no body character. You just can't play it. Sure you can. Even if whoever is running the game insists that all characters use the character template, you can still buy Multiform into an AI and make Multiform irreversible. Granted that would be a munchkin thing to do, but as far as I know it is perfectly legal. Have the AI buy the characteristics you want as powers and just don't buy BOD or STR Lucius Alexander House of the Palindromedary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Here's something I see no obvious way to model in Hero: Travelling from Wheel of Time. Travelling allows the channeler to go from here to there[i/] without traversing the space between. Teleportation' date=' plain and simple. Except that travelling requires a detailed knowledge of [i']here, but no knowledge at all of there, and there can be, in theory, another planet entirely. It's been shown that a travelling gate can reach from one side of a planet to the other. Safe Blind Teleport "500 miles East." boom. Likely a Multipower with a combo suite of Normal & Megascaled Teleport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... I'm sure there are tons of things it can't model but I find it amusing how the examples offered immediately have builds offered for them, often quite simple ones. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Um.. yes it can. No Gravity Penalty Advantage: I do not have that book, but it certainly solves that aspect of the problem. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sean Waters Posted June 25, 2009 Report Share Posted June 25, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... "Playing" an automaton would pretty much amount to being the one to roll the dice for it - it has no will, only programmed responses, so there are no choices to make. If it DOEs have will and makes choices, it is not an automaton. You can build an AI to pilot an automaton in system you just can not get that for a PC, which is a bit daft in my opinion. The AI issues commands to its own body and would be destroyed when the body was destroyed. What you can not do it build a PC who only takes Body damage, can never be stunned - because that is an automaton power which is prohibited by the rules from PC access. Maybe 6e... Sure you can. Even if whoever is running the game insists that all characters use the character template, you can still buy Multiform into an AI and make Multiform irreversible. Granted that would be a munchkin thing to do, but as far as I know it is perfectly legal. Have the AI buy the characteristics you want as powers and just don't buy BOD or STR Lucius Alexander House of the Palindromedary The character template is the default position and I don;t think the ook suggests using another even as an optional rule (although it probably has been suggested somewhere). I don't think it is perfectly legal to multiform into anything but another character build. I many be wrong on that, but I'm pretty sure I'm not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... It's very hard in Hero to have Characteristics other than STR add to damage. It can be worked around, but the builds can get clumsy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... It's very hard in Hero to have Characteristics other than STR add to damage. It can be worked around' date=' but the builds can get clumsy.[/quote'] What special effect of attack would require a characteristic other than STR to add damage to it? Remember, It's Reason from Effect (not the other way around). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lucius Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... You can build an AI to pilot an automaton in system you just can not get that for a PC, which is a bit daft in my opinion. The AI issues commands to its own body and would be destroyed when the body was destroyed. What you can not do it build a PC who only takes Body damage, can never be stunned - because that is an automaton power which is prohibited by the rules from PC access. Maybe 6e... The character template is the default position and I don;t think the ook suggests using another even as an optional rule (although it probably has been suggested somewhere). I don't think it is perfectly legal to multiform into anything but another character build. I many be wrong on that, but I'm pretty sure I'm not. Steve Long has confirmed in the forum that it's possible to Multiform into a Base, Automaton, Vehicle, or AI - basically anything you can Summon you can Multiform into. Lucius Alexander The palindromedary wants to Multiform into Steve Long and rewrite the rules. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... What special effect of attack would require a characteristic other than STR to add damage to it? Maybe a magic wand that does more damage if the wielder's INT or EGO is high. Or a Nimble Blade, where DEX adds. Compelling an extradimensional being to attack, where PRE influences how hard they hit. How about a power that causes great (but transient) pain in the wielder, so hardier individuals (high CON or BODY) can withstand more? Remember, It's Reason from Effect (not the other way around).The topic came up as I was mining 4e D&D for ideas. There, all characteristics can add to damage (or other effects). Hero lacks that flexibility. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IndianaJoe3 Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... The palindromedary wants to Multiform into Steve Long and rewrite the rules. I'd rather Transform the rules into what I want them to say. (Or maybe XDM into a dimension where the rules agree with my interpretation.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyper-Man Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... Maybe a magic wand that does more damage if the wielder's INT or EGO is high. Or a Nimble Blade, where DEX adds. Compelling an extradimensional being to attack, where PRE influences how hard they hit. How about a power that causes great (but transient) pain in the wielder, so hardier individuals (high CON or BODY) can withstand more? The topic came up as I was mining 4e D&D for ideas. There, all characteristics can add to damage (or other effects). Hero lacks that flexibility. But none of those sfx actually requires that the characteristics mentioned would actually add damage in the same way that STR does. The fact that D&D might do it that way does not mean it's a sfx. It just means that's the mechanics they chose to use. Anyway, every sfx example given could be done in a similar fashioin to Deadly Blow with a custom Limitation based on the characteristic of choice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narf the Mouse Posted June 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... The topic came up as I was mining 4e D&D for ideas. There' date=' [i']all[/i] characteristics can add to damage (or other effects). Hero lacks that flexibility. ...It was at that point in time that I wondered if I was going to hear the voice of Rod Sterling. ...I'm not sure if I'm serious or not. Because you. are. right. ...I see aliens with a cookbook, I'm out of here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ghost-angel Posted June 26, 2009 Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... The topic came up as I was mining 4e D&D for ideas. There' date=' [i']all[/i] characteristics can add to damage (or other effects). Hero lacks that flexibility. No it doesn't. It just doesn't state anything explicitly by RAW. However, you have the foundation to make it so. 5 Active Points / 1 Damage Class is an underlying principle (5ER p558). Using that you can easily extrapolate a Characteristic Damage Adding Mechanic should you need it. Otherwise, you can utilize Hyper-Man's suggestion regarding the use of Deadly Blow, or some other mechanic, with a Limitation tying it to a specific Characteristic. But it is absolutely Untrue to say Hero System lacks that flexibility. On the contrary, it builds it into the underlying principles of the system. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Narf the Mouse Posted June 26, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 26, 2009 Re: Finding something Hero System can't model... While both can do that, D&D 4e covers it explicitly. And, annoying as I find it in this case, an explicit declaration beats an implicit declaration. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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