Fooling Telepathy

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

Ultimate Skill allows acting to fool surface telepathy if the actor has about a minute to get into character if he makes an acting roll at -4

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

Ultimate Skill allows acting to fool surface telepathy if the actor has about a minute to get into character if he makes an acting roll at -4

 

That plus extra Ego and/or Mental Defense sounds decent to me, though note that the Resistance talent doesn't normally have an effect on Mental Powers (which would seem to set a precedent). If that doesn't sound sufficient, I'd go with a Telepathy or Mental Illusions counter-attack.

 

I'm not too fond of the mental Shapeshift approach. Do you allow a visual Shapeshift to hide what you are doing? That's the equivalent in my mind. A mental Shapeshift might be able to hide some of how you, "appear," to mental senses (Class of Mind, what your personality and self-image look like. but not whether you went down to the store an hour ago or pulled the trigger of the murder weapon), but I wouldn't allow it to simply nullify Telepathy.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

Something like...

 

Method Actor: Shape Shift (Mental Group, four (max) shapes), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Persistent (+1/2) (20 Active Points); Only To Conform To Cover Id (-1/2), Requires An Acting Skill Roll (-1/2)

 

 

The number of shapes can be varied at need.

[Klytus]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

The character who wants the power keeps calling it "occlumency" for some odd reason..

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

The character who wants the power keeps calling it "occlumency" for some odd reason..

 

Here you go

 

Occlumency

 

Occlumency is, in the fictional realm of J.K. Rowling's Harry Potter series, a branch of magic involving the practice of closing one's mind against outside penetration, thereby preventing others from reading one's thoughts. This nonexistent word was created by joining the word "occlude" (which means to close or block off) with the suffix "-mancy" (which means divination

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

Mental Defenses have visible effects?

 

To other telepaths, yes.

 

I remember a Doctor Who episode where he had to deal with a telepathic enemy. His defense was to think about other things at the same time as he thought of how to deal with his situation -- the surface "noise" hopelessly confused his enemies. The irony was that the telepaths were themselves being used as pawns by an aggressive, non-telepathic race -- which begs the question of how they were about to confuse them.

[pinecone]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

Technically shapeshift is visible to (3-senses covered) senses, so if the SS covers 3 senses you do not need IPE: that is why my build is only IPE to 2 senses.

 

It does seem daft though...

 

I don't think "technical" is the right word here, shapeshift changes how something "looks", so I would not see the sense of requiring "Invis" before the power can be used as designed.

 

Silly example: "What gave you a clue that mole was really chango-guy?" "The loud humming noise, and the smell of vanilla". So I'd look at it as not being generally aplicable as far as the 3 senses thingy...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

I don't think "technical" is the right word here, shapeshift changes how something "looks", so I would not see the sense of requiring "Invis" before the power can be used as designed.

 

Silly example: "What gave you a clue that mole was really chango-guy?" "The loud humming noise, and the smell of vanilla". So I'd look at it as not being generally aplicable as far as the 3 senses thingy...

 

Whilst I agree it makes no logical sense, that is exactly how it works. END using powers are visible to three senses, with a special rule for invisibility (which may also extend to shapeshift and images) that you do not need IPE for the senses your power covers: invible to sight? No need for IPE to sight.

 

Do feel free to check up on me. I'm right though. I'm not arguing that this is how it should be, just that this is how it is.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

I believe the FAQ clarifies the issue - IPE is not needed on Invisibility or Shapeshift. I do believe Sean does not use the FAQ.

[pinecone]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

Whilst I agree it makes no logical sense, that is exactly how it works. END using powers are visible to three senses, with a special rule for invisibility (which may also extend to shapeshift and images) that you do not need IPE for the senses your power covers: invible to sight? No need for IPE to sight.

 

Do feel free to check up on me. I'm right though. I'm not arguing that this is how it should be, just that this is how it is.

 

I'm not saying what you say is not found, I'm saying that aplying it as you suggest is ....not good. If the claim is valid then the rules should specify that Invis is required to use it, anything else would seem kinda fraudulent..."Sure you can do that, but it woun't work at all" We use Judges for just this reason. Words on paper are not enough on their own....

[pinecone]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

I believe the FAQ clarifies the issue - IPE is not needed on Invisibility or Shapeshift. I do believe Sean does not use the FAQ.

 

Oh, well...aparently I'm a "bad" poster anyhow....I guess I should just ignore that sort of thing....

[CourtFool]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

To other telepaths' date=' yes.[/quote']

 

Page reference please.

 

As I understand it…

"Powers that inherently cost no END do not automatically have perceivable special effects."

 

Mental Defense does not cost END. I see nothing under Defensive Powers to suggest it should be perceivable either.

 

I suppose you could argue that IPE is required to hide the effects of the use of the power. Could/would you do the same with Armor?

[secretID]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

While the Shapeshift and Images builds are very appealing, I wonder if they're balanced. Telepathy isn't a sense, and it isn't priced like one; it's an attack power. Other than by inhibiting targeting (not the issue here), should you be able to completely negate (and worse, really) an attack power with Shapeshift or Images?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

...

Telepathy isn't a sense, and it isn't priced like one; it's an attack power. ...

 

Telepathy isn't an attack power either.

It's a Mental Power.

 

from 5er page 104:

 

POWER CATEGORIES

The HERO System organizes Powers into several categories: Adjustment Powers, Attack Powers, Body-Affecting Powers, Defense Powers, Mental Powers, Movement Powers, Sense-Affecting Powers, Sensory Powers, Size Powers, Special Powers, and Standard Powers. Each category of Powers has certain special rules that apply to all Powers in that category. Some Powers belong to multiple categories, since some categories are functional, and others based primarily on game rules.

 

from 5er page 126:

 

SENSORY POWERS

Sensory Powers heighten or improve a character’s Senses, or provide him with Senses most characters lack.

 

In addition to the four listed Powers, a few other Powers, such as Telepathy and Mind Link, have some Sense-like properties. Refer to Senses In The HERO System, pages 348-55, for more information.

 

from 5er page 350:

 

THE MENTAL SENSE GROUP

The Mental Sense Group includes Mental Awareness, Mind Scan, and any other Enhanced Senses based primarily upon mental powers. To a limited extent, Telepathy (which acts as both “mental hearing” and a “mental voice”) and Mind Link (a more limited form of Telepathy) are also a part of this Sense Group for purposes of applying Sense-Affecting Powers. No character has any Mental Group Senses normally, though characters who buy any Mental Power get Mental Awareness for free (see page 163).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

My rule of thumb would be that any Power that is meant to hide or disguise anything should not be required to buy IPE to disguise the fact that it is being used (during its use; I won't dismiss the possibility that they might have IPE for other reasons). But that's the Invisibility/Shapeshift/Images thing, and I see it as off-topic, especially because--as I said earlier--I don't find those acceptable for completely changing the results of Telepathy.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

I believe the FAQ clarifies the issue - IPE is not needed on Invisibility or Shapeshift. I do believe Sean does not use the FAQ.

 

 

 

The FAQ muddies the issue, not clarifies it, but, like I said, you don't have to take IPE for senses that your invisibility covers. That's what it says.

 

To be honest the whole 'visible sfx' thing is a crock. There are so many exceptions and 'clarifications' and ridiculous ways you can define visible sfx so that they are not actually 'visible' that it has become meaningless, which makes the extreme cost of IPE even more ridiculous.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

I'm not saying what you say is not found' date=' I'm saying that aplying it as you suggest is ....not good. If the claim is valid then the rules should specify that Invis is required to use it, anything else would seem kinda fraudulent..."Sure you can do that, but it woun't work at all" We use Judges for just this reason. Words on paper are not enough on their own....[/quote']

 

The rules do specify: it is an END using power.

[secretID]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

Telepathy isn't an attack power either.

I meant in the sense that you have to use an attack action, make an attack roll, and do "damage." The stuff you quoted in the sensory section settles it for me, though - obviously, from that, this type of thing is OK. It seems a bit wrong, though - for relatively little one character is made invulnerable to the power of another character that could be 200 APs.

[SteveZilla]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

I meant in the sense that you have to use an attack action' date=' make an attack roll, and do "damage." The stuff you quoted in the sensory section settles it for me, though - obviously, from that, this type of thing is OK. It seems a bit wrong, though - for relatively little one character is made invulnerable to the power of another character that could be 200 APs.[/quote']

 

Is that much different than a little purchase of Invisibility rendering a character "invulnerable" to a 200 pt EB?

 

The problem with a Mental Shape Shift (or Mental Images) is that, while it may fool Telepathy, it won't fool Mind Control - "Tell Me The Truth" because under the Shape Shift, the character *does* still know the truth.

 

And I've seen some people use IPE on a non-END using defensive power. Normally, if something didn't take damage from an attack, it is reasonably apparent to the attacker that it didn't take damage -- due to defenses. IPE hides this fact from the attacker, making him think he *has* done damage to the target.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

To be honest the whole 'visible sfx' thing is a crock. There are so many exceptions and 'clarifications' and ridiculous ways you can define visible sfx so that they are not actually 'visible' that it has become meaningless' date=' which makes the extreme cost of IPE even more ridiculous.[/quote']

 

Yes. "Three Senses Groups" has always been handwaved almost entirely in our groups.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

Yes. "Three Senses Groups" has always been handwaved almost entirely in our groups.

 

That's fine, but the rule remains. That you, and, I daresay, many others choose to ignore it or change it doesn't make it go away. Well, maybe it does - we'll have to wait for 6e.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

Is that much different than a little purchase of Invisibility rendering a character "invulnerable" to a 200 pt EB?

 

Invisibility doesn't render a character invulnerable to an EB. It just might make them harder to hit with the EB. In the same way, I wouldn't have a problem with Invisibility making it hard to target your ECV attack roll. But once the target is hit with the Telepathy, the Invisibility shouldn't do crap IMO (well, it certainly shouldn't completely nullify the Telepathy at least).

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

To other telepaths, yes.

 

I remember a Doctor Who episode where he had to deal with a telepathic enemy. His defense was to think about other things at the same time as he thought of how to deal with his situation -- the surface "noise" hopelessly confused his enemies. The irony was that the telepaths were themselves being used as pawns by an aggressive, non-telepathic race -- which begs the question of how they were about to confuse them.

 

Mental defences are not visible to any sense in Hero by default as mental defence does not use END.

 

If you attack someone with mental defence it might be obvious by deduction that they have mental defence, but it is not detectable to mental awareness, so you would have no idea that someone had mental defences before you attacked them.

 

The sfx of mental defences might therefore seem unimportant, but they can still add flavour; someone attacking you with telepathy might 'perceive' a whirl of confusing images - but no matter what sfx you pick you can not use that to give false information.

 

There is no real mechanism to give false information to telepathy, although the GM might house rule that you can make an EGO roll to do so, or an Acting roll, or whatever - but it is just a house rule.

 

The only official way to give false information is with a sense affecting power: shapeshift, or mental illusions (as a damage shield, perhaps) or images. You might even be able to use mind control to force someone to think that they have information.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

Invisibility doesn't render a character invulnerable to an EB. It just might make them harder to hit with the EB. In the same way' date=' I wouldn't have a problem with Invisibility making it hard to target your ECV attack roll. But once the target is hit with the Telepathy, the Invisibility shouldn't do crap IMO (well, it certainly shouldn't completely nullify the Telepathy at least).[/quote']

 

Logically telepathy is a sense: you are detecting something, so if that thing is fully invisible, you should not be able to detect it.

 

OTOH, mechanically, telepathy is not defined as a sense, so you are quite right - once you have 'hit', invisibility to mental group has no effect on telepathy at all, just as being invisible to sight and touch make it difficult to hit an opponent, but do not less damage to them if you manage it.

 

Rather an aside, but a potentially interesting way to avoid most mental powers is with a triggered breakout roll (which also requires some handwaving, of course). it might look like this:

 

Slippery mind, all slots Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; Being attacked by a mental power; +1)

13 1) +5 EGO (20 Active Points); Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (Only for breakout rolls; -½)

42 2) +7 with breakout rolls (42 Active Points)

[secretID]

Re: Fooling Telepathy

 

OTOH' date=' mechanically, telepathy is not defined as a sense, so you are quite right - once you have 'hit', invisibility to mental group has no effect on telepathy at all, just as being invisible to sight and touch make it difficult to hit an opponent, but do not less damage to them if you manage it.[/quote']

And it isn't priced like a sense, either - that's why I mentioned a 200 AP power being completely stopped by the cheap invis. - and in fact worse than stopped, with the Shapeshift or Images.

 

Rather an aside, but a potentially interesting way to avoid most mental powers is with a triggered breakout roll

I don't get it - you already get a free breakout. Is there no breakout for Telepathy? I guess there isn't for Mind Scan (obviously not looking at rules).