Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

[Alibear]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Not necessarily. The logic could also be that there's a point of diminishing return in utility... that there's more advantage in having +4m of reach compared to +0m' date=' than there is in having +8m of reach compared to +4m. And the larger the amount of whatever it is, the more the utility declines. For example, how often would you really encounter a situation where your +1,000,000m of reach was inadequate, and you needed +2,000,000m instead? [/quote']

 

How big would you need to be to pluck the moon out of the sky to use as an Are Affect Attack of Opportunity?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

How big would you need to be to pluck the moon out of the sky to use as an Are Affect Attack of Opportunity?

 

Too big to stand on the Earth?

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

How big would you need to be to pluck the moon out of the sky to use as an Are Affect Attack of Opportunity?

 

Too big to stand on the Earth?

 

And standing in a different game system, that uses the "Attack of Opportunity" concept?

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

The Hexes.... The Hexes.... /Colonel Kurtz

[ajackson]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Too big to stand on the Earth?

Generally, yeah. The biggest I've seen used in a game is 'big enough that you can use a player (or his shoes) as a counter', which is around 18-19 levels. I've used bigger as plot devices (earthquake dragons), but stats were quite irrelevant.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Yeah, I though Ultimate Metamorph was pretty good on that point--once you get past mountain-sized PCs, they're practically in their own "macroverse". For one thing, past a certain height, there's no breathable atmosphere.

 

The biggest version of Godzilla is about 100m (17 levels of growth, probably could be fudged up to 18), and none of his opponents are more than double his size (20 levels). The Celestials in Marvel Comics get to be about 2000 feet tall (25 levels?), with Exitar the Exterminator clocking in at 10 times that height (35 levels?). And Mechanon 3000 is of course the size of a moon, but at that point the character is more like a giant vehicle or mobile base than they are a PC or NPC in the classic sense.

[Alibear]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

And standing in a different game system' date=' that uses the "Attack of Opportunity" concept? [/quote']

 

meh

[Ice9]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

I would oppose applying this logic only to Growth. Why should Stretching and Teleport not have similar breaks to reflect declining utility?

Teleport (and all movement powers) do have this logic to an extent, via non-combat movement. Summon, Duplication, and Multiform all already have it as well.

 

Stretching is somewhat of an odd case, because (at least currently) it adds to damage. If in 6E this is removed, then maybe it will scale like this (at least non-combat stretching could).

 

Energy Blast doesn't have this directly (the point at which it should apply depends on the average DEF for the campaign anyway), but it does sort of have this via Autofire.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Teleport (and all movement powers) do have this logic to an extent' date=' via non-combat movement. Summon, Duplication, and Multiform all already have it as well. [/quote']

 

The first 1" of Teleport or Flight could be argued to have vastly greater utility. However, every additional 1" is less and less useful (you're more likely to get where you want to be without it) and costs exactly the same.

 

Stretching is somewhat of an odd case' date=' because (at least currently) it adds to damage. If in 6E this is removed, then maybe it will scale like this (at least non-combat stretching could). [/quote']

 

I'd like to see the damage adder removed. However, I doubt stretching will be priced on a basis other than 1" costs X points.

 

Energy Blast doesn't have this directly (the point at which it should apply depends on the average DEF for the campaign anyway)' date=' but it does sort of have this via Autofire.[/quote']

 

The point at which Stretching, movement, etc. should apply is also campaign-dependent, as the size of the battlemat determines when utility starts to decline.

[JmOz]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

The logic does exist in stretching as well (at least sort of) as you can have Non Com Stretching x2 at +5, it is only the combat version that it does not cary over to. I know that the growth is still better, but it does exist.

[The Main Man]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

I probably shouldn't admit this' date=' but I haven't used figures or battle maps in over a decade. [/quote']

 

I almost never use them either, so the change barely affects me either.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Also, Stretching and Movement both should probably add damage on a logarithmic scale (each doubling of velocity/distance adds a fixed number of DCs). That's my take anyway. It's more physically consistent with Strength damage and such.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

I almost never use them either' date=' so the change barely affects me either.[/quote']

 

 

We use homemade counters of shrunken artwork and mostly gridless or square grid maps. All I need is range rules and I can specify my own scale.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Also' date=' Stretching and Movement both should probably add damage on a logarithmic scale (each doubling of velocity/distance adds a fixed number of DCs). That's my take anyway. It's more physically consistent with Strength damage and such.[/quote']

 

With STR you add damage on an arithmetic scale +5 points = +1d6 but your lift doubles with each 5 points. That could substantially change how fast you move: +5 points of movement could add +1d6 damage to a move through, and that would double the movement.

 

So for 5 points you get (say) 2 m of running (base is 1m for 'free'), which adds 1d6 to a move through.

 

10 points = 4m run = +2d6 damage

15 points = 8m running = +3d6 damage

20 points = 16m running = +4d6 damage

25 points = 32m running = +5d6 damage

...

60 points = 8.192 km! running = +12d6 damage

 

Well, it is a thought, but at that velocity I think it becomes seriously impractical to use miniatures

 

Of course it also neatly solves the artificial distinction between combat and noncombat moves

[megaplayboy]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

With STR you add damage on an arithmetic scale +5 points = +1d6 but your lift doubles with each 5 points. That could substantially change how fast you move: +5 points of movement could add +1d6 damage to a move through, and that would double the movement.

 

So for 5 points you get (say) 2 m of running (base is 1m for 'free'), which adds 1d6 to a move through.

 

10 points = 4m run = +2d6 damage

15 points = 8m running = +3d6 damage

20 points = 16m running = +4d6 damage

25 points = 32m running = +5d6 damage

...

60 points = 8.192 km! running = +12d6 damage

 

Well, it is a thought, but at that velocity I think it becomes seriously impractical to use miniatures

 

Of course it also neatly solves the artificial distinction between combat and noncombat moves

 

 

Actually, running twice as fast requires four times as much energy(kinetic energy equation: E(k) = 1/2(mass)x(velocity)^2), which is more comparable to increasing STR by 10 points, rather than 5. So if you were going to double movement speed every x points, doubling it every 10 points would make more sense.

Lifting is comparable to potential energy (mass(kg)x g(9.8m/sec^2) x height(m)). So a 100kg human who can lift 100kg 2 meters (roughly 2000 joules) generates as much energy(in the same second) as a 100kg human running at 6.3 meters per second.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Actually, running twice as fast requires four times as much energy(kinetic energy equation: E(k) = 1/2(mass)x(velocity)^2), which is more comparable to increasing STR by 10 points, rather than 5. So if you were going to double movement speed every x points, doubling it every 10 points would make more sense.

Lifting is comparable to potential energy (mass(kg)x g(9.8m/sec^2) x height(m)). So a 100kg human who can lift 100kg 2 meters (roughly 2000 joules) generates as much energy(in the same second) as a 100kg human running at 6.3 meters per second.

 

Interesting...but problematic as SPD is still a factor.

 

 

So, a 'starting character' has 10 STR (and can lift 100kg) and should be able to move about 76 metres in a turn or, with 2 SPD, about 38 metres in a phase, so 10 'running' should =38m. That would make the progression something like this...

 

 

5 26.9

10 38.0

15 53.7

20 76.0

25 107.5

30 152.0

35 215.0

40 304.0

45 429.9

50 608.0

55 859.8

60 1216.0

[megaplayboy]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Honestly, though, i suspect the average 10 STR is supposed to just lift the 100kg high enough to stagger with it for a few steps, so maybe that should just be 1 meter instead of 2. In which case, flat out running speed for a normal should be about 4 meters per second instead of 6, which works out to 48 meters per turn, or 24 old-school hexes, which is equivalent to the normal's non-combat speed of 24 meters per phase. If you double their movement speed, you add 6"/+2d6.

 

Actually, you can pretty much get to this system via the "velocity factor" alternate rules in FRED and 5th ed.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Honestly' date=' though, i suspect the average 10 STR is supposed to just lift the 100kg high enough to stagger with it for a few steps, so maybe that should just be 1 meter instead of 2. In which case, flat out running speed for a normal should be about 4 meters per second instead of 6, which works out to 48 meters per turn, or 24 old-school hexes, which is equivalent to the normal's non-combat speed of 24 meters per phase. If you double their movement speed, you add 6"/+2d6.[/quote']

 

Well, really I don't think we need to look at matching values so exactly. But the general correlation could be simulated more easily, without really overcomplicating the system (and certainly making it more consistent, at least IMO).

 

Also, movement gives you a heck of a lot more than just Move By/Move Through damage; it also gives you...well, movement. I don't think we want to see a huge disparity in combat movement speeds or there'll be too much of a tactical shift. So I'm a little conflicted there. I'd like to see the relationship between velocity and damage fixed up a bit, but I don't know about movement cost. Hmm.

 

My quick thoughts: we have some notion that +1 DC "doubles the power" of an attack in a descriptive sense, and that is somewhat consistent with Str. Since each doubling of velocity should quadruple energy, make each doubling in velocity add 2 DCs (and interpolate inbetween; x3/2 velocity could probably just be called "close enough" for adding 1 DC). I think if we are careful to pick the right starting point it could be done without too much imbalancing in the system as well. Maybe start with the base 6 hexes (12m) of movement adding 1 DC and 10 hexes (20m) of movement adding 2 DCs. Thereafter it's easy to extrapolate: 12 hexes = 24m = 3 DCs, 20 hexes = 40m = 4 DCs, etc. But I'm not stuck on that; it's just a quick idea.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Thinking about it, I actually wonder if Movement Powers would better be handled with a base cost to be able to use that mode at all, plus an incremental cost to increase the velocity (almost but not quite like the Minimum Cost of 4th Edition, eh?). That would still allow us to make things like Flight, Teleportation, and Tunnelling more expensive off the bat because they give more value, but not so extremely expensive once you get over the base cost that it is ridiculous (yes, it's awesome to be able to fly, but is being able to fly twice as fast really of so much more value than being able to run twice as fast?).

 

What if we did something like:

• Running - 10 points for 6 hexes (12m) of Running (Everyman)
  
• Swimming - 5 points for 2 hexes (4m) of Swimming (Everyman)
  
• Leaping - 5 points for 2 hexes (4m) of Leaping (Everyman)
  
• Flight - 15 points for 6 hexes (12m) of Flight
  
• Teleporation - 15 points for 6 hexes (12m) of Teleportation
  
• Tunnelling - 5 points for 1 hex (2m) of Tunnelling (through 1 DEF)
  
• All Movement - 1 point for +1 hex (+2m)
  

[jtelson]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Too big to stand on the Earth?

 

I think at that point the Earth is standing on you.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

In the end it needs to be playable and usable.

 

The current system: Just buy the increment you want to move is the most usable, most easily grasped, and ultimately most playable way to buy movement.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

It is, but the complication comes in with move and SPD: the same points spend means very different things, at least in terms of how far you can go. It is a difficult one to address, because I am anxious that the SPD table be retained - maybe we can APG it?

 

That is going to be one BIG book.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

You pay for both SPD and Movement so AFAIK you've paid (or not paid) for all that movement, as best as can be easily done, and played. But then - I have very little desire to model this "reality" thing.

[Lucius]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Part of what makes these kinds of powers so complicated is the lack of agreement on what abilities should "logically" follow from a given change in body size or shape.

 

For example, some people think it makes sense that Growth should get you extra Running, and others realize that this doesn't make sense.

 

If you think it makes sense, that's because you're thinking "Longer legs = bigger stride = faster. Duh!" And it's true that longer legs would mean you move farther with each step. But that equals "faster" IF AND ONLY IF the larger character's pace (number of steps taken in a given time, or how quickly east step is taken, whichever way you want to look at it) is the same as that of the shorter character. When we're talking about giants, that becomes extremely unlikely.

 

There's a reason the tallest athletes are basketball players, not track and field runners.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Palindromedary, Always On

[ghost-angel]

Re: Sixth Edition Showcase #5: Body-Affecting Powers

 

Except that when a single stride is 18 meters, even if you can only take one step per Phase you're now moving faster than base movement....

 

Hence - Really Large Characters logically move further by virtue of having strides measured in meters instead of inches or feet.

 

Using basketball players is only useful if you stay relatively close to Human Scale. It's one thing to compare a seven foot guy to human movement. It's completely another to compare a fifty foot tall guy to the same.