Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

[Psybolt]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

What if you built the power using Mental Illusions. That would use EGO to bust out of. You could specify "No Range" to it to indicate the need to touch for it to work, and you could limit the power by saying something like "only usable to cause character's biggest pleasure." or some kind of wording as such.

[Ragdoll]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

What if you built the power using Mental Illusions. That would use EGO to bust out of. You could specify "No Range" to it to indicate the need to touch for it to work' date=' and you could limit the power by saying something like "only usable to cause character's biggest pleasure." or some kind of wording as such.[/quote']

 

An interesting idea, but being able to hit the target with a punch or kick and have the effect applied requires that it basically be a damage shield by default, correct? The points you'd need to effect someone with the MI power damage shield rockets it way out of range of the 50 point cap I think. I don't want something that will eventually bring a target down, I want a power to puts them out automatically then forces them to struggle to break free/ignore it's effects, even if it's only for a phase or so.

 

To my knowledge Entangle is really the only power that can simulate that. Drain again would be too gradual for instance, and MI while interesting runs into the same problems.

[Psybolt]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

An interesting idea, but being able to hit the target with a punch or kick and have the effect applied requires that it basically be a damage shield by default, correct? The points you'd need to effect someone with the MI power damage shield rockets it way out of range of the 50 point cap I think. I don't want something that will eventually bring a target down, I want a power to puts them out automatically then forces them to struggle to break free/ignore it's effects, even if it's only for a phase or so.

 

To my knowledge Entangle is really the only power that can simulate that. Drain again would be too gradual for instance, and MI while interesting runs into the same problems.

 

I don't think it would have to be a damage shield. A damage shield is something that would work anytime you would be touched, regardless of the attack. If you are touched by someone else, or attacked HtH, or grabbed, they would be affected by the damage shield.

 

If you set it up as an attack that you control, then you could make the mental illusions with No Range. That would require a touch. You couldn't use it with your HtH attack, but you could define the sfx of the attack as a punch/kick etc. You would just decide when you use this attack. That seems reasonable to me.

 

I suppose you could link the MI to something as well.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

It has been determined that allowing a power to work against EGO not STR is unbalanced unless it is also built BOECV because it makes it that much more expensive.

Who has determined it? Has Steve addressed this in a FAQ? If so can you quote it/post a link?

I'm not saying I'm correct as far as RAW, but if the quoted section means what Hyper-Man and you feel it means then it is arguably the worst written section of the book because it is not clear.

Side question, has any other Advantage been disallowed from a Power unless a separate Advantage is present, even if the prerequisite Advantage gives no benefit?

Also this:

I'm still not convinced about the must have BOECV to have it based on EGO. As it stands it would make it a useless advantage. Only there for the sole purpose of making the power more expensive with zero benefit. They say that a disadvantage that's not really a disadvantage isn't worth any points.

 

Well, sauce of the goose is sauce for the gander, isn't it?

 

While I guess I can see how it might be a problem, how is said character hitting a thug with this power and putting them on the ground any different then the team blaster hitting the same thug with it's 10D EB. It's a similar result isn't it?

BOECV is an Advantage that costs points, yet gives absolutely no Advantage in this case. If “You Get What You Pay For, You Pay For What You Get” doesn’t apply to this situation I don’t know if it applies at all.

[Ragdoll]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

I don't think it would have to be a damage shield. A damage shield is something that would work anytime you would be touched, regardless of the attack. If you are touched by someone else, or attacked HtH, or grabbed, they would be affected by the damage shield.

 

If you set it up as an attack that you control, then you could make the mental illusions with No Range. That would require a touch. You couldn't use it with your HtH attack, but you could define the sfx of the attack as a punch/kick etc. You would just decide when you use this attack. That seems reasonable to me.

 

I suppose you could link the MI to something as well.

 

I dunno. I think that gets into multiple attacks or something. Hyper mentioned it a few posts back, so I don't recall. The idea about using a punch or a kick as a special effect, I'm not so sure about. *sighs* this power seems 'hopelessly' complicated to simulate and all I wanna do is use my martial arts on a foe in combat and have the entangle go off when I hit them.

 

Basically I feel like I'm having to bend over backwards to get the mechanics to simulate a simple action. Entangle them if the character touches them, regardless if it's a left hook to their jaw or a light touch on their shoulder.

 

Isn't their some elegant way to do that without having the power look like a complete mess mechanically? =?

[BNakagawa]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

While I guess I can see how it might be a problem, how is said character hitting a thug with this power and putting them on the ground any different then the team blaster hitting the same thug with it's 10D EB. It's a similar result isn't it?

 

Against a thug, true, there is no net difference. Any 50 active point attack power should do just fine.

 

The problem is that it is unreasonably effective against everything else.

 

If you want the ability to cripple any non-mentalist in one shot, be prepared to pay a metric buttload for it.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

Who has determined it? Has Steve addressed this in a FAQ? If so can you quote it/post a link?

 

It's a no-brainer. Obviously making a +1/4 advantage works against EGO not STR is broken unless it also includes the +1 advantage BOECV.

 

Otherwise, it's a net 25% reduction in dice to operate against a stat that costs 100% more than STR and very few characters buy up anyway.

 

buh-roken.

[Ragdoll]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

It's a no-brainer. Obviously making a +1/4 advantage works against EGO not STR is broken unless it also includes the +1 advantage BOECV.

 

Otherwise, it's a net 25% reduction in dice to operate against a stat that costs 100% more than STR and very few characters buy up anyway.

 

buh-roken.

 

Um, wait. =? Why the round about way of doing it then? Why the need to stick a +1 modifier that does nothing essentially to the power other then make it more expensive to get a power that works vs. EGO and not STR?

 

If that was the case why not just simply make Works vs. EGO not STR a

+1 1/4 advantage when applied to Entangles? =?

[Yansuf]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

Um, wait. =? Why the round about way of doing it then? Why the need to stick a +1 modifier that does nothing essentially to the power other then make it more expensive to get a power that works vs. EGO and not STR?

 

If that was the case why not just simply make Works vs. EGO not STR a

+1 1/4 advantage when applied to Entangles? =?

 

Good question.

 

I thought that it was +1 advantage.

[Ragdoll]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

Good question.

 

I thought that it was +1 advantage.

 

I added in the +1/4 for works vs. EGO not STR. The entire thing is BOECV +1 and 'Works vs. Ego Not STR for +1/4, so all together it'd probably be +1 1/4, but I'd be willing to go with just +1 since you don't see many stand alone advantages between +1 and +2.

[MZ2]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

ask your GM if you can just link it to STR, should shorten the hassle. after all, you are trying to make a power that only goes off when YOU touch someone, and WANT to afflict them (if you truely want it to go off every time you touch or get touched, you have to do it the damage shield way. lower it to a 1d6 1 def entangle, and you might be able to manage it).

[BNakagawa]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

Um, wait. =? Why the round about way of doing it then? Why the need to stick a +1 modifier that does nothing essentially to the power other then make it more expensive to get a power that works vs. EGO and not STR?

 

If that was the case why not just simply make Works vs. EGO not STR a

+1 1/4 advantage when applied to Entangles? =?

 

does nothing?

 

since when does no range mod penalty and acting against ECV count as doing nothing?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

It doesn't act against ECV, HE HAS TO TOUCH THEM. Touching someone is a physical action based on OCV, NOT EOCV. Also, no range modifier? He's not building a ranged power! Did you read what the OP is actually trying to do?

EDIT: And if adding advantages that in no way apply to the power being constructed is a no-brainer, then I, and a lot of people who reason from effect and build to concept must not have brains. Also, your cost argument is nonsense. If anything it is an argument for the Works Against EGO instead of STR advantage being too cheap. It is NOT a valid argument that applying an Advantage that does not, in fact, give an advantage to the power simply because "it's too cheap otherwise" is legitimate. Can you point out some other examples of that in book for us?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

Basically I feel like I'm having to bend over backwards to get the mechanics to simulate a simple action. Entangle them if the character touches them, regardless if it's a left hook to their jaw or a light touch on their shoulder.

Isn't their some elegant way to do that without having the power look like a complete mess mechanically?

Simply put? No. Damage Shield is the way to do what you want, and Damage Shield is generally overpriced and complicated to use due to its other requirements. If I were you I would drop the Damage Shield idea and build the power as a straight up attack. It’s just that much simpler. You can make someone “bliss out” when you touch them, but you have to intentionally do it, it won’t just happen automatically to everyone that touches you.

[Ragdoll]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

Simply put? No. Damage Shield is the way to do what you want' date=' and Damage Shield is generally overpriced and complicated to use due to its other requirements. If I were you I would drop the Damage Shield idea and build the power as a straight up attack. It’s just that much simpler. You can make someone “bliss out” when you touch them, but you have to intentionally do it, it won’t just happen automatically to everyone that touches you. [/font']

 

MZ2 mentioned the idea of linking it to STR. That sounds like a perfect way to do it. I will take a look at the link. I'm kinda sure I read in the BBB that you could link a greater power to a smaller one, which I think I'd have to do given the fact that even at a low 1d6 level the entangle would be many more points then the actual STR. I think the character's STR is low, around 10 or so.

 

Any thoughts on that? =)

[BNakagawa]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

It doesn't act against ECV' date=' [i']HE HAS TO TOUCH THEM[/i]. Touching someone is a physical action based on OCV, NOT EOCV. Also, no range modifier? He's not building a ranged power! Did you read what the OP is actually trying to do?

EDIT: And if adding advantages that in no way apply to the power being constructed is a no-brainer, then I, and a lot of people who reason from effect and build to concept must not have brains. Also, your cost argument is nonsense. If anything it is an argument for the Works Against EGO instead of STR advantage being too cheap. It is NOT a valid argument that applying an Advantage that does not, in fact, give an advantage to the power simply because "it's too cheap otherwise" is legitimate. Can you point out some other examples of that in book for us?

 

Then what that represents is an additional disadvantage, not the elimination of a REQUIRED advantage.

 

And yeah, if you buy NND with an autofire attack, it costs +1 extra.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

And yeah' date=' if you buy NND with an autofire attack, it costs +1 extra.[/quote']

And you end up with an NND Power with Autofire, don't you?

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

MZ2 mentioned the idea of linking it to STR. That sounds like a perfect way to do it. I will take a look at the link. I'm kinda sure I read in the BBB that you could link a greater power to a smaller one, which I think I'd have to do given the fact that even at a low 1d6 level the entangle would be many more points then the actual STR. I think the character's STR is low, around 10 or so.

 

Any thoughts on that? =)

Linked is a Limitation, not an Advantage. That limitation does not negate MultiPower Attack penalties, if you use them in your game.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

And you end up with an NND Power with Autofire' date=' don't you?[/quote']

 

and you said:

It is NOT a valid argument that applying an Advantage that does not, in fact, give an advantage to the power simply because "it's too cheap otherwise" is legitimate. Can you point out some other examples of that in book for us?

 

There it is. A +1 advantage that does not in fact, give an advantage. An in the book example, just like you asked for. The reason it exists? Because it's too cheap otherwise.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

I'm confused, obviously. What are you paying for that you are not getting? You added NND and you added Autofire. You get to use BOTH with the power, don't you? If not, then please give a page reference, preferably the one that states "you must add this Advantage you don't actually use because the other Advantage is too cheap". Assuming you can't find an equivalent quote please at least explain your example.

[fbdaury]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

Linked is a Limitation' date=' not an Advantage. That limitation does not negate MultiPower Attack penalties, if you use them in your game.[/quote']

 

I`ve just read 5th ed and 5th REd sections on Multiple Power Attacks, and neither one mentions penalties for MPAs so I`m curious why this is being mentioned- is this a common GM balance decision or something for MPAs?

[fbdaury]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

and you said:

It is NOT a valid argument that applying an Advantage that does not, in fact, give an advantage to the power simply because "it's too cheap otherwise" is legitimate. Can you point out some other examples of that in book for us?

 

There it is. A +1 advantage that does not in fact, give an advantage. An in the book example, just like you asked for. The reason it exists? Because it's too cheap otherwise.

 

 

Actually, the extra +1 is because NND and AF TOGETHER are too EFFECTIVE and therefore require the extra cost- that is not the same as Works vs Ego, not Str; which is an individual advantage that is useful but not useful enough to warrant a 225% increase in the cost of a power by itself.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

I`ve just read 5th ed and 5th REd sections on Multiple Power Attacks' date=' and neither one mentions penalties for MPAs so I`m curious why this is being mentioned- is this a common GM balance decision or something for MPAs?[/quote']

 

from 5er page 360 (sidebar):

 

RESTRICTING MULTIPLE-POWER ATTACKS

To prevent characters from over-using multiple-power attacks, the GM can impose restrictions similar to those on Rapid Fire and Sweep: for each power or maneuver added to the combination (including the first one) the character suffers a -2 OCV penalty; multiple-power attacks take a Full Phase; using one halves the character’s DCV.

 

Since Linked (page 299) depends in part on the multiple-power attack rules, if the GM restricts them, he may want to consider increasing the value of Linked to reflect that.

[Yansuf]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

Steve Long has just posted (in the rules questions section) that the +1/4 advantage "works on ego, not str" cannot be used in entangle without also using the +1 "based on ECV".

[Ragdoll]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

Steve Long has just posted (in the rules questions section) that the +1/4 advantage "works on ego' date=' not str" cannot be used in entangle without also using the +1 "based on ECV".[/quote']

 

Well, there you have it. Seems like a pretty clear cut answer. At least it effectively ends any further ambiguous debate on it. I'd like to thank everyone for their input. =)

 

Once again, thank you all.