Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

[Ragdoll]

I'm building a character in what I consider to be a non-traditional way. Basically a minor psionic powered individual that can fight very well.

 

Its main ability is its combat training. It's power is the ability to hyper stimulate a target's pleasure centers. Basically a touch or punch allows the character to send a target into a intense session of bliss.

 

I built this as an ego entangle, to represent it takes a highly disciplined will to shrug off it's effects and keep moving and ignore the sensations. It's for a 250 point game, with a standard 10 DC/50 AP cap so unfortunately I think that means it's power can be too high, correct?

 

I built it as Entangle 2d6, 2 DEF; Works vs. EGO not STR +1/4, Transparent to Physical Attacks +1/4, Feedback +1/2, 0 End +1/2, Mental Defense adds to EGO -1/2, No Range -1/2, Cannot form Barriers -1/4. (Active: 50 points, Real: 22 points)

 

Would this be useless as a power, for the campaign power level, or can it be put to some good use?

 

Other stats are:

 

12 STR, 18 DEX, 18 CON, 12 BOD, 11 INT 15 EGO 12 PRE 12 COM 8 PD 5 ED 4 SPD 10 REC 40 END 40 STN

 

Combat Luck (3/3) 'Just a Scratch'

Damage Reduction 25% Physical: Stun Only (-1/2) 'Built Tonka Tough!'

Combat Sense 11- 'I can beat you blindfolded!'

Find Weakness 11- with Martial Arts; Can only Reduce Defenses of Target by Half (-1) 'That hurt? Good.'

 

The rest of it's points would be spent on Martial Arts Moves and Related combat and crimefighting skills.

 

Bad idea? Good idea? Too much Cheese? Suggestions? Changes? Any help is appreciated. =)

[Certified]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

That looks like it could be a really fun build. It's 2d6 with Def 2 so I don't think it's too much, maybe physical attacks did half damage to the hold and half to he entangled person. So that get getting hit shakes them out of it.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

Have you thought about making it an Offensive Damage Shield?

 

That way it works in addition to his martial arts (especially grabs) without having to use MPA rules.

[Ragdoll]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

Have you thought about making it an Offensive Damage Shield?

 

That way it works in addition to his martial arts (especially grabs) without having to use MPA rules.

 

MPA? And I thought briefly about a damage shield, but with the changes to Damage shields in 5th, I think it's far out of my range in terms or point cap isn't it? =?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

MPA? And I thought briefly about a damage shield' date=' but with the changes to Damage shields in 5th, I think it's far out of my range in terms or point cap isn't it? =?[/quote']

 

If active point caps are strictly enforced then this will be too big:

 

30 Magic Hands: Entangle 2d6, 2 DEF, Takes No Damage From Attacks Limited Group (Physical; +1/4), Works Against EGO, Not STR (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Backlash (+1/2), Damage Shield (Offensive; +3/4), Based On EGO Combat Value (Mental Defense applies; +1), Continuous (+1) (105 Active Points); Skin Contact Required (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Mental Defense Adds To EGO (-1/2), Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), Can Be Dispelled (-1/4) - END=0

 

MPA= Multiple Power Attack.

 

As built, your version requires a specific attack action all of its own. It can't be combined with a Martial Punch or Martial Grab with out making it a Multiple Power Attack (which optionally can cause it to incur sweep-like penalties as a result).

 

BTW, the Hero Designer rules logic stated that Works Against EGO, Not STR was only a legal Advantage if the power first had BOECV, Takes No Damage From Attacks and Cannot Form Barriers

[Ragdoll]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

If active point caps are strictly enforced then this will be too big:

 

30 Magic Hands: Entangle 2d6, 2 DEF, Takes No Damage From Attacks Limited Group (Physical; +1/4), Works Against EGO, Not STR (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Backlash (+1/2), Damage Shield (Offensive; +3/4), Based On EGO Combat Value (Mental Defense applies; +1), Continuous (+1) (105 Active Points); Skin Contact Required (-1), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Mental Defense Adds To EGO (-1/2), Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), Can Be Dispelled (-1/4) - END=0

 

MPA= Multiple Power Attack.

 

As built, your version requires a specific attack action all of its own. It can't be combined with a Martial Punch or Martial Grab with out making it a Multiple Power Attack (which optionally can cause it to incur sweep-like penalties as a result).

 

BTW, the Hero Designer rules logic stated that Works Against EGO, Not STR was only a legal Advantage if the power first had BOECV, Takes No Damage From Attacks and Cannot Form Barriers

 

Yeah I think that's waaay to high to work in the campaign, sadly. =/ And is that BOECV thing an official rule? I had it as BOECV originally then I realized that I'd basically made it no range and completely dependent on it landing if I successfully attacked a target in hand to hand, which would basically take the form of a punch or kick.

 

Didn't realize about the MPA thingee. Figured I could just use it with a punch or kick that landed. That kinda bites. Can I designate it as a trigger that it happens when the character lands a punch or kick? =?

[Balabanto]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

It's too cheesy in a 250 point game. Your average character will have to spend 3 phases getting out of that. (Ego 10) Or they'll have to push to get out. I've studied this for years. Unless you build characters with superhuman ego on a regular basis, this power is howlingly, screamingly, unabashedly broken.

 

When a villain has this power, it's only occasional. Seeing it every session="This is BS"

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

Yeah I think that's waaay to high to work in the campaign' date=' sadly. =/ And is that BOECV thing an official rule? ....[/quote']

 

Well, if this the character's only 'power' I'd allow it in a 350 point game. But if might be too much for a 250 point one.

 

Yes, see 5er page 169.

[bubba smith]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

if f the com stat has been discontinued as i understand to be the case,the points can be used for a damage sheild or split beteen thast and ego

[Matt the Bruins]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

Is 0 END really necessary? With an Entangle, you only have to pay the END cost on the initial attack unless you want it to be Continuous and keep reinforcing itself. (Though of course, if you want it to be effortless it's an appropriate Advantage.)

 

I'd probably build it as Drain vs. DEX and/or INT instead to allow for partial effect, but I don't think a 2d6 BOECV Entangle is abusive. (Now a humongous one with over 200 Active Points like Medusa has, that's completely broken for a 350 point game... or a 750 point game, for that matter.)

[BNakagawa]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

Entangles based on anything other than STR/raw damage are always cheese and more often than not, hideously broken, too.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

0 End is essential for the Damage Shield variant as it would cost 8 End/Phase otherwise.

 

Here's my second attempt:

 

24 Magic Hands v2: Entangle 2d6, 2 DEF, Takes No Damage From Attacks Limited Group (Physical; +1/4), Works Against EGO, Not STR (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Damage Shield (Offensive; +3/4), Based On EGO Combat Value (Mental Defense applies; +1), Continuous (+1) (95 Active Points); Does Not Prevent The Use Of Accessible Foci (-1), Mental Defense Adds To EGO (-1/2), Limited Class Of Minds [subset of a class] (-1/2), Stops Working If Mentalist Is Stunned (-1/2), Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), Can Be Dispelled (-1/4)

[Notes: Because the Entangle combines BOECV & Damage Shield, hitting a target with it does not depend on either character's ECV at all. The effect has both a ranged and constant quality as well since the effect can be Dispelled and ends if the power's owner is Stunned or Knocked Out.] - END=0

[Ragdoll]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

[Notes: Because the Entangle combines BOECV & Damage Shield' date= hitting a target with it does not depend on either character's ECV at all.[/quote]

 

What? Okay you've lost me here. If it's a damage shield and it hits when you touch, grab or are touched anyway why does it still need BOECV?

 

Is that like solely one of those things regardless whether it's an actual mechanic or not? IE: Even though it's not going to hit with a character's ECV, it needs this added on anyway simply because it's got something else tacked on like works vs. EGO and not STR?

 

Is that the case? =?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

BOECV and the other related advantages (see Entangle description, 5er page 169) are what make it work vs. EGO instead of STR.

 

Based On Ego Combat Value: Characters can use Entangle with BOECV to create a type of power called “Mental Paralysis.” Mental Paralysis Entangles must be built with the Advantages Takes No Damage From Physical Attacks (+¼) and Works Against EGO, Not STR (+¼), and the Limitation Cannot Form Barriers (-¼) (the latter Advantage may be a Limitation in games where EGO is, on the average, much higher than STR).

 

If the power was built without Damage Shield or No Range then it would be targeted by ECV vs. ECV (instead ov OCV vs. DCV).

 

here's another update:

 

37 Magic Hands v3: Entangle 2d6, 2 DEF, Works Against EGO, Not STR (+1/4), Takes No Damage From Attacks All Attacks (+1/2), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2), Based On EGO Combat Value (Mental Defense applies; +1), Continuous (+1), Damage Shield (Offensive; Affects Mental And Physical Attackers; +1 1/4) (110 Active Points); Mental Defense Adds To EGO (-1/2), Limited Class Of Minds [subset of a class] (-1/2), Stops Working If Mentalist Is Stunned (Entangle Effect; -1/2), Cannot Form Barriers (-1/4), Can Be Dispelled (-1/4)

[Notes: Because the Entangle combines BOECV & Damage Shield, hitting a target with it does not depend on either character's ECV at all. The effect has both a ranged and constant quality as well since the effect can be Dispelled and ends if the power's owner is Stunned or Knocked Out.] - END=0

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

From what you quoted it sounds like "Works Against EGO, Not STR" is needed to make a power BOECV. That doesn't actually mean BOECV is needed to make a power "Works Against EGO, Not STR", does it? In other words, the power occurs through physical contact, thus it's based on regular CV, why apply BEOCV at all? Why not only apply "Works Against EGO, Not STR"? Or am I missing something?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

From what you quoted it sounds like "Works Against EGO' date=' Not STR" is needed to make a power BOECV. That doesn't actually mean BOECV is needed to make a power "Works Against EGO, Not STR", does it? In other words, the power occurs through physical contact, thus it's based on regular CV, why apply BEOCV at all? Why not only apply "Works Against EGO, Not STR"? Or am I missing something?[/quote']

 

I may be reading the quoted section wrong but this is how I see it:

 

IF an Entangle has the BOECV Advantage,

 

THEN it can be turned into "Mental Paralysis" by adding the following Advantages...

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

I guess I read that as “if you want to apply BOECV (to make our version of Mental Paralysis) to an Entangle then you must first (or also) apply Works Against EGO (WAE) and Takes No Damage”. To me that’s not the same as saying “If you want to apply WAE you must build our ‘Mental Paralysis’ power and add BOECV as well”. I could be wrong of course, but to me it seems that WAE is a prerequisite for BOECV, not that they must both be applied. Anyone else? Am I way off base here? If so, sorry…

 

Edit: You said you read it as such:

IF an Entangle has the BOECV Advantage,

 

THEN it can be turned into "Mental Paralysis" by adding the following Advantages...

Even wording it that way doesn't work. IF an Entangle has BOECV...it doesn't. We aren't applying that advantage, so the IF doesn't matter. THEN it can be turned to this with that. If we ignore the IF the THEN still stands. Regardless of the IF an Entangle THEN can be turned into "Mental Paralysis" with teh following Advantages...

Again, maybe I'm way off. Also, I've been up for about 23 hours, so if I'm not expressing myself clearly I'm sorry.

[Oruncrest]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

I may be reading the quoted section wrong but this is how I see it:

IF an Entangle has the BOECV Advantage,

 

THEN it can be turned into "Mental Paralysis" by adding the following Advantages...

 

But I don't think the OP wanted 'mental paralysis', he simply wants the victim to 'bliss out' and chose EGO over something like say CON because he felt that getting out should be an act of willpower ("Must... ignore... good vibrations!... ooOOOHHHH!!!!!") over how fit he's supposed to be ("aaAAAHHHH!!!!!... Alright, tense up! Tense... Tense... TENSE!!!... aaAAAHHHH!!!!!").

 

I don't think that the rules specify that you have to take BOECV just because you wanna use an EGO roll to break out of an entangle. Just that if you buy BOECV, you have to buy 'Uses EGO, not STR' (i.e. it's the other way around).

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

I guess I read that as “if you want to apply BOECV (to make our version of Mental Paralysis) to an Entangle then you must first (or also) apply Works Against EGO (WAE) and Takes No Damage”. To me that’s not the same as saying “If you want to apply WAE you must build our ‘Mental Paralysis’ power and add BOECV as well”. I could be wrong of course, but to me it seems that WAE is a prerequisite for BOECV, not that they must both be applied. Anyone else? Am I way off base here? If so, sorry…

 

Edit: You said you read it as such:

 

Even wording it that way doesn't work. IF an Entangle has BOECV...it doesn't. We aren't applying that advantage, so the IF doesn't matter. THEN it can be turned to this with that. If we ignore the IF the THEN still stands. Regardless of the IF an Entangle THEN can be turned into "Mental Paralysis" with teh following Advantages...

Again, maybe I'm way off. Also, I've been up for about 23 hours, so if I'm not expressing myself clearly I'm sorry.

 

 

Well it makes sense to me based on the way the information is laid out in 5er (under the bold heading of BOECV after Entangle in the Powers section) and the following response I get from HDv3 when I try to remove just BOECV from any version of the Entangle build.

[Oruncrest]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

Oh, and someone rep bigbywolfe for me, please. he beat me to the post there.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

Take a look at the power description of Entangle in 5er.

 

There are several Advantages discussed with their own bold subheading (like BOECV).

 

Works Against EGO, Not STR (+¼) is NOT described by itself.

It ONLY appears in the BOECV section.

 

The IF, THEN logic is part of the layout.

[Oruncrest]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

Well it makes sense to me based on the way the information is laid out in 5er (under the bold heading of BOECV after Entangle in the Powers section) and the following response I get from HDv3 when I try to remove just BOECV from any version of the Entangle build.

But the designers of HDv3 can't be expected to cover every permutation of every SFX. Does HDv3 have the other variations of 'works agains [other characteristic], not STR' from DIGITAL HERO #5?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

But the designers of HDv3 can't be expected to cover every permutation of every SFX. Does HDv3 have the other variations of 'works agains [other characteristic]' date=' not STR' from DIGITAL HERO #5?[/quote']

 

Nope. Hero Designer (according to Dan Simon) works in accordance with 'official 5er rules'. AFAIK, options put forth in Digital Hero are NOT official.

[BNakagawa]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

From what you quoted it sounds like "Works Against EGO' date=' Not STR" is needed to make a power BOECV. That doesn't actually mean BOECV is needed to make a power "Works Against EGO, Not STR", does it? In other words, the power occurs through physical contact, thus it's based on regular CV, why apply BEOCV at all? Why not only apply "Works Against EGO, Not STR"? Or am I missing something?[/quote']

 

It has been determined that allowing a power to work against EGO not STR is unbalanced unless it is also built BOECV because it makes it that much more expensive.

[Ragdoll]

Re: Decent Character or Too Much Cheese?

 

My idea was to make a paranormal with the mentally derived ability to cause the pleasure centers of a target's brain to flare up uncontrollably when it touched the target. The touch could be an actual touch, or a flying fist or kick directly into their gut during a combat for instance.

 

The mental ability is more of the power's special effect, since it's no range and only hits if the paranormal hits them in combat (or OCV based). They would register as a psi and possibly a mutant if they were one, but beyond that, that would be hit for the mentalist flavor.

 

I'm still not convinced about the must have BOECV to have it based on EGO. As it stands it would make it a useless advantage. Only there for the sole purpose of making the power more expensive with zero benefit. They say that a disadvantage that's not really a disadvantage isn't worth any points.

 

Well, sauce of the goose is sauce for the gander, isn't it?

 

While I guess I can see how it might be a problem, how is said character hitting a thug with this power and putting them on the ground any different then the team blaster hitting the same thug with it's 10D EB. It's a similar result isn't it?