Slowing down Character advancement

[jpburklow]

I'm starting a Hero game and am concerned about the speed at which a character can improve. Are my fears unfounded? Has anyone had issue with this and if so how did you resolve it?

 

-JPB

[Greywind]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

Advance how?

 

If the game uses caps, either during build or throughout the campaign, then the character is bound by those caps.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

What Greywind said. Also, players can only spend points as fast as you give them out...

[Tasha]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

What Greywind said. Also' date=' players can only spend points as fast as you give them out...[/quote']

 

But if you don't give enough experience, the players will start to feel like their characters don't change enough. I would recommend sticking with the EXP recommendations in the rules.

 

Your campaign limits will keep things from getting too far out of hand.

 

Tasha

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

Define both of your uses of "enough". Than explain how that compares with "too much" or "not enough".

 

I'm not saying don't give XP, I'm saying the GM sets the pace of character growth in the game, so worrying about the pace of character growth when you are the GM, well....

 

Also, I'd say "campaign limits 'should' keep things from getting too far out of hand". Some min-maxers can get a lot around campaign limits.

[Greywind]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

But if you don't give enough experience, the players will start to feel like their characters don't change enough. I would recommend sticking with the EXP recommendations in the rules.

 

Your campaign limits will keep things from getting too far out of hand.

 

Tasha

Ain't that the truth...

[sinanju]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

I'm starting a Hero game and am concerned about the speed at which a character can improve. Are my fears unfounded? Has anyone had issue with this and if so how did you resolve it?

 

-JPB

 

As mentioned above, characters can only spend XP you give them. One way to minimize griping about slow XP handouts is to give more points at character creation. "We're starting at a higher-than-normal level because XP is going to be slow to accumulate." If they're only playing in hopes of accumulating XP like treasure, they're in the wrong game--better to know that now.

 

A way to allow characters to advance without lots of XP is to give them contacts, favors, fringe benefits and the like as a consequence of their adventures. They don't get points--they get the specific relationship or benefit. This also means you can make sure they only get contacts and whatnot that you are prepared to deal with and which will fit your game. If they want to buy off disads, rather than simply accumulating XP toward that end, they can talk to you and you can work out adventures (in-session or bluebooked) to justify the changes.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

Bah! Easy! Just give Experience then forbid the players to spend it.

[Tasha]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

Define both of your uses of "enough". Than explain how that compares with "too much" or "not enough".

 

I'm not saying don't give XP, I'm saying the GM sets the pace of character growth in the game, so worrying about the pace of character growth when you are the GM, well....

 

Also, I'd say "campaign limits 'should' keep things from getting too far out of hand". Some min-maxers can get a lot around campaign limits.

 

I have been in games where the PCs get 2 exp every 3-4 adventures. That is really not enough. At that rate, all of those skills that I bought at minimum level will not have any chance to actually have high enough roll to fit my character conception.

 

I really LOVE the Exp recommendation that is in the book. 2-3 exp per session. If used properly it gives the players recognition that they RPed well, and again allows the characters to grow at a decent rate. It is a reward that I expect as a player. When little to no exp is given out, I feel like the GM is telling me that I am not playing my character well. Since some of the bonus XP rewards(and penalties) are based on how well the player RPed, this is borne out by the rules.

 

Good campaign limits will keep the PC's from becoming combat gods. Also keeping in touch with player goals for their characters will help as well.

 

Character growth is a good thing. It keeps the characters and the campaign fresh.

[Vondy]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

I'm starting a Hero game and am concerned about the speed at which a character can improve. Are my fears unfounded? Has anyone had issue with this and if so how did you resolve it?

 

-JPB

 

 

Killer Shrike has posted numerous threads on alternative advancement methods. You might take a look at them. Go to the advanced search function and do a user search by threads. You should be able to zero in on them pretty quickly that way.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

XP is a very artificial construct that dates back to the early days of RPGing as a way of 'keeping score'. It is not a particularly good way to handle character advancement, but can be made to work if everyone is going to be sensible about it. Mind you, if everyone is going to be sensible about it it is arguable that this sort of mechanism is unnecessary anyway.

 

Ideally all character advancement should be story driven: characters get 'better' when the story dictates that they gain an improvement in ability. Bear in mind that it is not just the GM that drives the story: players do too.

 

The difficulty with that approach is that some players might feel that their character is getting a raw deal because it might be some time before the story dictates an improvement...or maybe an improvement is never really appropriate. Take James Bond; there is no particular evidence of character advancement in terms of ability over the whole run of films.

 

But I'm getting off topic...

 

What I used to do to note XP was this: hand out 'ticks': each time a player had their characetr do something cool, funny, or appropriate they got a tick. 10 ticks make an XP. I was very obvious about handing out ticks as they happened. That way players feel they are getting rewarded for good play but you don't wind up with runaway experience bloat.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

 

What I used to do to note XP was this: hand out 'ticks': each time a player had their character do something cool, funny, or appropriate they got a tick. 10 ticks make an XP. I was very obvious about handing out ticks as they happened. That way players feel they are getting rewarded for good play but you don't wind up with runaway experience bloat.

 

 

Hah! That's exactly what I do. Including being very obvious about it. My players seem to like it and I get more cool bits and genre appropriate heroism and role playing too.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

Hah! That's exactly what I do. Including being very obvious about it. My players seem to like it and I get more cool bits and genre appropriate heroism and role playing too.

 

A great mind seldom differs

[jpburklow]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

Thanks everybody! I really like the 'ticks' idea...maybe make some chits with the Blue-Superhero of Justice printed on them for show! Spoon!

 

Anyway, I was concerned, because at a rate of even 1pt./adventure a character can 'double' his or her strength in 5 sessions. (I'm talking lifting capacity). At a rate of 2-3 per session, a point of SPD in the same or less number of sessions...that's a big difference in the character in a short amount of time.

 

Anywho, the ticks thing should definately help and can be fine tuned easily.

 

Cheers,

JPB:thumbup:

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

Thanks everybody! I really like the 'ticks' idea...maybe make some chits with the Blue-Superhero of Justice printed on them for show! Spoon!

 

Anyway, I was concerned, because at a rate of even 1pt./adventure a character can 'double' his or her strength in 5 sessions. (I'm talking lifting capacity). At a rate of 2-3 per session, a point of SPD in the same or less number of sessions...that's a big difference in the character in a short amount of time.

 

This depends on what you compare to. The character has played in five sessions and enhanced his STR by 10 points (2d6 damage, 4x Lift) or his SPD by 1. However, he has not improved his likelihood of hitting or his ability to avoid being struck in return, gained no new powers, improved no existing powers, gained no new skills and enhanced no existing skills. How does this compare to other games?

 

The common benchmark is D&D, so let's look there. How many sessions to level up, and what do you get when you level up? 5 sessions seems a lot given only a few challenging encounters are required to level up. If the characters gain, say, 2 levels in 5 sessions, they have gained enhancements to their skills (skill points twice), better ability to withstand damage (more hit points, improved saving throws), new special abilities (more spells, character abilities, maybe a Feat or second class/prestige class), improved chances to hit (base attack bonus), possibly another attack (from increases base attack bonus) and maybe a stat point (every four levels). That also seems like a lot of change in a short period of time.

 

The difference is that many other games mandate how your xp will be spent, generally over a broad array of abilities, while Hero allows it to be focused if desired, so one ability can increase more quickly. Hero's approach makes it very clear exactly how the character is changing, while other systems often bury this in automatic improvements that apply to all PC's, making improvement of any one PC less obvious.

 

Can you slow it down? Sure - in either system, you can grant less xp per session and slow down advancement. You could even remove advancement entirely, if you are so inclined. You could change advancement to be infrequent quantum leaps (20 ex or 4 levels every 20 or so sessions, for example). Your group can set the rate and manner of advancement any way the group wants.

[Tasha]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

Thanks everybody! I really like the 'ticks' idea...maybe make some chits with the Blue-Superhero of Justice printed on them for show! Spoon!

 

Anyway, I was concerned, because at a rate of even 1pt./adventure a character can 'double' his or her strength in 5 sessions. (I'm talking lifting capacity). At a rate of 2-3 per session, a point of SPD in the same or less number of sessions...that's a big difference in the character in a short amount of time.

 

Anywho, the ticks thing should definately help and can be fine tuned easily.

 

Cheers,

JPB:thumbup:

 

I think you are worrying about really nothing. Been playing with generous amounts of XP given in Hero System games for a long time. As long as your are doing more than combats all of the time (ie letting the players use their non combat skills) you will almost never have a problem with combat ability bloat. By using the non combat skills a ton, you give the players a reason to purchase better rolls with those skills. If you don't use the player's non combat skills and are combat oriented, then the players will spend the points on Damage Classes, Skill levels, Dex and Speed.

 

See balanced games are the best.

 

What I am saying is that the recommended XP totals are there for a reason, and they really do work. Being stingy with XP is a great way to turn off players from wanting to play in the system.

 

Tasha

 

PS Don't fix what isn't broken.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

Thanks everybody! I really like the 'ticks' idea...maybe make some chits with the Blue-Superhero of Justice printed on them for show! Spoon!

 

Anyway, I was concerned, because at a rate of even 1pt./adventure a character can 'double' his or her strength in 5 sessions. (I'm talking lifting capacity). At a rate of 2-3 per session, a point of SPD in the same or less number of sessions...that's a big difference in the character in a short amount of time.

 

Anywho, the ticks thing should definately help and can be fine tuned easily.

 

Cheers,

JPB:thumbup:

 

Bear in mind that campaign guidelines should still apply: if you want to limit characters to 20 in characteristics then that applies both at character creation and in game with XP spends. Hopefully they will not simply go for the most combat efficient options.

 

Another possibility is modifying the Normal Characteristic Maxima system, perhaps by making 15 the 'double cost point' and 20 a 'quadruple cost point'. Apply the same logic to combat levels: more than 3 combat lelves, the cost doubles, more than 6 and it quadruples.

 

You can fine tune that but it is certainly one way to encourage distribution rather than concentration of XP and does slow down absolute increases substantially. It is also not unrealistic: humans do have a point of diminishing returns with regard to characteristic improvement.

[Trebuchet]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

We simply require that expenditure of XPs be approved by a majority of GMs in the campaign (Right now we have 5 GMs, so at least 3 have to approve it. Usually that's not an issue; such decisions are usually unanimous). Furthermore, if the proposed new/improved ability would step on another character's schtick then it requires the other player's approval as well.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

One problem with character advancement by XP is that the GM has to keep updating recurring NPCs, or decide that they are going to stay put i.e. that the PCs will become more potent than old enemies.

 

As I GM more than I play (well, generally) I'm dead set against anything that makes the GMs life more difficult.

 

Some games simply do not need XP, and, unless the players have an expectation of XP, if you do not mention it to them then they will not miss it.

 

You SHOULD have some sort of reward system, but it needn't be formalised. Things like Award Ceremonies for the heroes, from a grateful City, small bits of interesting equipment that makes everyone's life easier (some sort of team communication/signal device perhaps) and even things like vehicles and bases (perhaps provided by a high tech company saved from the rampaging Grond) can all make nice rewards without leading to XP bloat. Transport and communication rarely have a lot of direct impact on combat and the costing of powers is very much combat oriented.

 

There can also be some personal development, of course: learning new skills, even boosting power levels - but it should all be role-played and take some time rather than be a mechanical 'XP spend'.

 

Of course rewards (sometimes the best rewards) can be more personal: a thankyou card from little Tilly whose school you 'stopped from getting all blowed up' may well mean more to your players than a fistful of XP.

 

If you take out a strict XP system, and therefore a strong correlation between power level and success, it is far more acceptable, I have found, for players to swallow a scenario where they are all poisoned and lose their powers (having to cope as normals for a couple of sessions) or, when facing an alien invasion single handed, are given astonishingly potent battle suits as a loan, just for the duration. If the players have had to scrimp for every point, this mucking about with power levels can annoy them. If their reward is just in-game success/storytelling it can actually enhance the whole experience.

[CourtFool]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

I am with Sean on this. There are plenty of in game ways to reward players. If you are just playing to 'level up', may I suggest any number of excellent computer games you may enjoy. If you need to advance to meet your character concept, I think you need to have a discussion with your GM. Your expectations may be too different.

 

I am not suggesting you never reward XP. It depends largely on the type of campaign. I usually run highly cinematic campaigns. I want fully formed PCs that are not going to change much (just like James Bond). If I wanted to go from lowly rat-killers to demigods, I would probably play that certain other game.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

I am with Sean on this. There are plenty of in game ways to reward players. If you are just playing to 'level up', may I suggest any number of excellent computer games you may enjoy. If you need to advance to meet your character concept, I think you need to have a discussion with your GM. Your expectations may be too different.

 

I am not suggesting you never reward XP. It depends largely on the type of campaign. I usually run highly cinematic campaigns. I want fully formed PCs that are not going to change much (just like James Bond). If I wanted to go from lowly rat-killers to demigods, I would probably play that certain other game.

 

Hopscotch?

 

 

 

 

 

**senses CourtFool is not with him any more...**

[Tasha]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

In my experience, I never get enough points to build the character that I want. So I look forward to getting exp so that I can grow the character into what I had in mind when I created her.

 

Stagnant characters suck, sorry. I am sorry that you are too lazy to keep up with your PC's advancement. Special ceremonies and winning battles are satisfying, but XP is really nice too.

 

It isn't about "leveling up". It's about selling off that hunted after all of these years, It's about buying off that activation roll now that the character knows her powers better, It's about that neat power that I envisioned the character manifesting "someday". It's about learning how to ride like an expert, after you have ridden thousands of miles.

 

Those things aren't possible if you don't reward any exp. See If I don't get any exp I don't know when/if I would be able to do any of those things. As a GM I LOVE to see characters grow and do new/different things. It's part of playing the game.

 

 

It's like the difference between watching Star Trek TNG, and Watching Babylon 5. On Star Trek, their GM never (or rarely) gave out exp. So their characters never grew. Hell Tasha Yar's player left the game out of boredom. On B5 their GM gave tons of exp. You had Delenn spend her exp on becoming a human (and buying down her "Distinctive features Minbarii). You had tons of characters grow and become different. That's why B5 was more interesting (at least to me). The characters grew, they were like real people that made real mistakes and lrearned from those mistakes (not always the right lesson)

 

I know from experience (LOL), that I would be highly dissatisfied playing in any Hero System game that never gave exp. or that gave out minute amounts of exp. I wonder if players in games who are giving out minute exp are really as satisfied as their GM's think...

[Vondy]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

Whoah.

 

Slow down there little buckaroos.

 

Its a game.

 

There's room for different styles of play without getting nasty about it.

 

Or saying other people's gaming styles suck.

 

Or that someone who likes vertical arms-race advancement is doing it wrong.

 

Its all subjective.

 

People like what they like.

 

It may not work for you.

 

But who cares so long as you have a group you're happy with?

[tesuji]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

I know from experience (LOL), that I would be highly dissatisfied playing in any Hero System game that never gave exp. or that gave out minute amounts of exp. I wonder if players in games who are giving out minute exp are really as satisfied as their GM's think...

 

would you think this even in a game where your Gm and you were on the same page about the campaigns appropriate guidelines and concepts? IE one in which you did get enough points at start to "hae the character you want" instead oe being forced to play a sub-par character and work towards the thing you wanted to play?

 

how much dissatisfaction is actual boredom at not changing enough vs dissatisfaction brought on by wanting to play, for instance, a 500 pt character envisioned concept for a 350 pt game?

[CourtFool]

Re: Slowing down Character advancement

 

In my experience' date=' I never get enough points to build the character that I want. [/quote']

 

Could it be you are setting your expectations too high?

 

Stagnant characters suck' date=' sorry. [/quote']

 

I would agree with you here, but I think for very different reasons. Characters can grow without raising their Abilities or Skills.

 

I am sorry that you are too lazy to keep up with your PC's advancement.

 

O.k., I probably deserved that one. It is still irrelevant. My decision on when and how much XP to grant is not based on my laziness (my complete lack of preparation is). I generally know my players' characters better than they do. Often times, I have to remind them how many XP I have given them and ask if they are planning to ever use some.

 

Special ceremonies and winning battles are satisfying' date=' but XP is really nice too. [/quote']

 

Contacts, favors, fame and changing the world are more fun for me.

 

It isn't about "leveling up". It's about selling off that hunted after all of these years…

 

While I certainly have no beef with buying off hunteds, if you did not want it to be part of your character, why did you take it to begin with? Disadvantages add depth to characters.

 

I also look at it this way, in order for the story to be interesting there has to be conflict. If you do not give the GM something to create conflict around, the GM will have to create something on their own. Disadvantages give you some control over the kind of conflict the GM will create.

 

It seems to me a lot of your frustration revolves around creating the character you want. Which is exactly why generally give out the high end of character points to begin with. I want players to run a character they will enjoy. I never enjoyed starting off at 1st level.

 

I know from experience (LOL)' date=' that I would be highly dissatisfied playing in any Hero System game that never gave exp. or that gave out minute amounts of exp. I wonder if players in games who are giving out minute exp are really as satisfied as their GM's think...[/quote']

 

I have yet to run a game where I never handed out XP. Considering I have run many games where the players hardly bothered with the XP I did give them, I would consider it. This does not include Contacts, Favors and/or Followers that were earned in game that I generally do not charge for.

 

I have never had any complaints about the amount of XP I gave out. As I mentioned before, I have had players often forget to spend XP anyway.

 

I apologize if I came off as combative, Tasha. I certainly did not mean to, but I know I can be very sarcastic.