Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

That may be true' date=' but I'm not convinced. Maybe the wand glows, so it's clear that it's doing something, but what that something is is not obvious.[/quote']

 

The quote from the book is pretty straightforward.

 

The inverse is certainly possible, but wouldn't fit the model you're proposing.

 

In fact, 6E gives lots of different ways to buy Invisibility of Powers. From the book:

 

Applying Invisible Power Effects to a Power conceals the Activity' date=' Source, Path, Target, Special Effects, and Intensity of a Power (see 6E1 125). It does not conceal the Target Effect or the Source Effect (if any).[/quote']

 

Under my proposed model, you would buy your Power through a Focus (Accessible or Inaccessible). The Visibility of the Focus (actually, the Power) would be the Power's initial Visibility type. For instance, you'd buy Resistant Protection 8 PD/8 ED, Inaccessible Focus (-1/4, for the sake of argument). Resistant Protection is already Inobvious, so that build would suffice for concealed body armor. For a force field projector, you'd buy Resistant Protection, Inaccessible Focus (-1/4), Obvious (-1/4). The magic staff that projected an inobvious magical ward would be built as Resistant Protection, Accessible Focus (-1/2); to make it project an obvious ward it would be Accessible Focus (-1/2) and Obvious (-1/4).

 

If you were to buy Blast, Accessible Focus, it would be Obvious, because Blast is Obvious. You could then buy it Invisible (source only; +1/4), which would mean no one could tell the Blast came from the Focus.

 

All I'm saying is, take Obviousness out of Focus, and put it in Invisible Power Effects and/or Visible, where it already is.

 

As Ice9 suggested, an inobvious amulet that created an obvious effect. Take it a step further, a magic amulet or ring that is not obvious, but allows the character to shoot lasers (friggin' lasers, man) from their eyes. The power is obvious, the focus is not.

 

By RAW, that makes it an Inobvious Focus. In fact, it can be an Inobvious Focus with an Obvious Power (which is what you're describing), but not the other way around.

 

If it's an Obvious Focus, the Power obviously comes from the Focus. That's RAW. If you don't want it to be obvious that the Power comes from the Focus, buy it Inobvious.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

....Or the Fantasy Hero Knight that has actually paid points for his plate mail for some reason. One crossbow bolt later & his armor no longer protects him from *anything*

 

I don't know that we need to fix this. Or more precisely, I question if any fix we come up with will justify the increase in rules complication.

 

If we have all used the "GM can ignore it" happily for decades, it doesn't generate play issues, and is *isn't* a constant lightning rod of debate, then does it really need fixing?

 

True enough. Common Sense, Dramatic Sense, and Special Effects have served us pretty well all along.

 

As far as I can tell this is a debate of rules minutia that will require a fix that is likely to get in the way of most players that use the Focus rules quite happily now & never care about the chink in the purity of Hero Logic.

 

True enough. I think it's my fault; I've been hijacking the thread; to IKerensky, I apologize. If people want to keep talking about my proposal, I suggest we start another thread.

[phookz]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

The quote from the book is pretty straightforward.

 

I think it is open for interpretation. It's not clear from the book just how someone perceives the actual power. The book states that it is clear the power comes from the focus, but not that you can perceive the power automatically. I can think of examples where this would make sense. Viper agents show up in the middle of the street and start setting up some kind of contraption with a control panel, lots of wires and gizmos, your basic supervillain type contraption. It starts to glow and make noise - clearly something it's doing something, but what that something is is not readily apparent. If it's a mental power, it's automatically invisible to everyone except the target of the attack and characters who have Mental Awareness.

 

I think there is a place for a focus that is clearly doing something, but not obvious what that something is.

 

By RAW' date=' that makes it an Inobvious Focus. In fact, it can be an Inobvious Focus with an Obvious Power (which is what you're describing), but not the other way around. [/quote']

 

Please read my post again, it clearly stated it was an inobvious focus. My whole point was to show an example of an Inobvious focus with an Obvious power.

 

That aside, I see now what you're getting at by having a modifier for the source - I didn't see that originally. I'm not convinced that it would be a better way of doing things that what we currently have.

[IKerensky]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

That's a lot of information to digest...

 

... especially as, as I mentionned in the title, I have access only to the basic rules set wich mean I cant make my focus undestructible by limitation.

 

I was a great Ironman fan... until the whole Civil War/Registration Act sillyness (Bad Tony ! BAADDDD Tony!), and I remember that in the older comics his armors was often damaged and he had to leave fight/ fight with a semi-destroyed armor, while nowadays his second skin seems nearly unbreakable and just a bit on power consumption...

 

About the Fantastic setting I would tell you that an Armor that did get pierced by a bolt or an Axe or Sword will be totally un-usable until reffited by a worksmith... A modular armor can be adjusted to keep some piece but that is all...

 

As far as I know this is the same for bullet proof vest, when pierced they have to been replaced (of course usually the guy inside need replacement too... and first ).

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

....Or the Fantasy Hero Knight that has actually paid points for his plate mail for some reason. One crossbow bolt later & his armor no longer protects him from *anything*

 

 

Sorry-- you flashed me back to the "and then my armor just fell off" quip quoted earlier. Horrible in game play, but funny as a mental image.

 

 

If we have all used the "GM can ignore it" happily for decades, it doesn't generate play issues, and is *isn't* a constant lightning rod of debate, then does it really need fixing?

 

Quite right on all points, of course. The "fix" that seems the simplest and doesn't really add complexity is the removal of the rule entirely. After all, it seems the majority of folks-- that is, the majority in this conversation-- are ignoring it anyway. If nothing else, move it slightly out of cannon and into the borders as one of the "optional" rules. I know-- everything is optional, but let's accept that when we discuss the game in general, or the legality of builds, etc-- we are basing it on the core cannon rules and go out of our way to note the use of "optional" rules when they apply.

 

So if it has to stay in the book (unless, like me, you highlight with a black Sharpie ), let's make it "officially optional." Seems reasonable enough.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

I'm with you.

 

At first I thought "well, that should effectively end the 'is Iron Man OIF or "Only in Hero ID?' debate," and I was totally cool with it.

 

Then I thought about a supers character from a fellow player who has a Force Field generated from a belt-mounted gizmo,

 

and a Fantasy Character who has an FF generated by an enchanted stone in her necklace.

 

Nope; this rule isn't going to work for us, and will be ignored with extreme prejudice, I think.

 

If you can not destroy the power a focus holds by hitting and damaging the focus then either:

 

1) it shouldn't be defined as a focus as it doesn't follow the focus rules OR

2) you should reduce the limitation value to reflect the increased utility OR

3) you should treat all foci the same and none of them should be 'destructible' in combat

 

-1/2 is a pretty big limitation for 'Armour': how much of a problem does it ever actually cause? How often does Defender have his armour stolen and have to go into battle in his underoos? Never? Less than never?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

The trouble with focus is that you apply OIF (say) to both the power armour and the power blaster mounted on it. The armour (Resistant Protection) is getting far more of a limitation than the blaster as it was not originally obvious. The Power Blast was.

 

What does 'focus' actually do? The only thing it does that other limitations don't really do is allow someone to remove the power from you until you can retrieve or re-create the focus. That is possibly worth -1/4 if the focus is obviously the power source and is accessible, otherwise it is probably not worth anything: if you are out of combat and in a position where someone can make you give up your power, you are probably defeated anyway - it isn't going to come up that often, not often enough for a limitation.

 

You can do 'removable out of combat' with Only In Hero ID: an item that you have to have with you to activate your powers.

 

You can do 'removable in combat' with 'Restrainable' - although if it is not obvious that the power comes from the focus I'd probably halve the value of 'Restrainable'.

 

Obviousness of where the power comes from seems little more than sfx - although it will have the noted effect on the value of 'restrainable'.

 

So...if we made 'focus' a -1/4 limitation with this effect (same as OIHID): you need to have the item with you to activate your powers and, if restrainable, it can be removed from you in combat, butting off your powers.

 

Then build 'accessible' items with 'restrainable'. If the item is restrainable then it should be clear that the power comes from the object, or you halve the 'restrainable' limitation.

 

Powers that are already obvious remain so unless bought with IPE. Powers that are not obvious should be bought with the 'obvious' limitation if it is sensible that buying them through a focus would make them so.

 

If it takes time to put a focus on, like armour, buy 'extra time to activate'.

 

IIF becomes just Focus (-1/4)

IAF becomes Focus PLUS Restrainable (halved) (-1/2)

OIF becomes just Focus - (-1/4) and maybe 'Obvious' if the power wouldn't have been (like Resistant Protection)

OAF becomes Focus PLUS Restrainable (-3/4) and maybe Obvious too.

 

There: that's saved about 4 pages

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

I was a great Ironman fan... until the whole Civil War/Registration Act sillyness (Bad Tony ! BAADDDD Tony!)' date=' and I remember that in the older comics his armors was often damaged and he had to leave fight/ fight with a semi-destroyed armor, while nowadays his second skin seems nearly unbreakable and just a bit on power consumption...[/quote']

 

One could interpret this as buying that pesky OIF down to OIHID, of course.

 

ASIDE: Everyone talks about Civil War, but no one mentions "Teen Tony" from a few years back. I guess that's now considered a positive period for the character's evolution.

[tesuji]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

As a different option

 

remove the book rule as is.

 

however add to the basic focus rule -

most foci are occasionally subject to damage - sometimes directly as in "that megabeam blew out my scanner" and sometinmes indirectly as in "every time he casts the nether tornado spell my amulet of power overheats". This is part of the focus drawback - another way you sometimes lose the power. At the GMs discretion these powers can fail, perhaps completely, perhaps partially, perhaps acquiring activation rolls until repaired, perhaps requiring extra power to function. Whatever reasonable effect reflecting "the item is damaged and malfunctioning" can be applied at the gms discretion and will persist until the item is fixed - the default being taking about a day in proper workshop.

 

In other words if you aren't going to detail it them specifically make it a fluffy "anything can happen" kind of thing.

 

One great example i used for "malfunctioning"

 

I had an evil groups summoning spell go awry and a wave of chaos magic swept across the city.

 

Every magic item - specifically items - got tainted and items could not clean themselves like people could. so now every item had a random roll for side effects. the mage's amulet of power - he used once and then didn't - except in an emergency - until he cleaned it.

 

so he spent the entire session and fight in extremis trying to not use his big gizmo - it was fun for him and quite a challenge. he took the chance once and got semi burned for it but it still saved his bacon.

 

some people have said i screwed him over because i did not have a villain target his focus irectly and nothing says i can do that to focus... but to me the focus is all about "its an item and items sometimes dont work for you" and so it seemed fine to me.

 

then again i am willing to give focus on claws that can easily be clipped.

[tesuji]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

Unbreakable: it goes away for a long time. Riiiiight....realistically that isn't going to happen though, except, maybe, in downtime, or a solo campaign, so it is meaningless as an additional limitation balancing the unbreakability.

 

Well thats where we differ - slightly.

 

Like i said, i discourage the use of unbreakable especially for this reason. But if the player insists on it with full knowledge this means the item will get lost and be gone for some time, then we go with it.

 

Now obviously a character with all his power in an unbreakable focus would make for an inappropriate PC - since he is effectively shut down during his lost focus period, so i would not allow that. But if the focus were just a part of his power, something he can do without tho its tough, then sure.

 

like say a guy who loses his magic sword but still has his magic bow and dagger.

 

mostly though i just push breakable.

[Jhamin]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

ASIDE: Everyone talks about Civil War' date=' but no one mentions "Teen Tony" from a few years back. I guess that's now considered a positive period for the character's evolution.[/quote']

 

I think there is are the periods the fans disapprove of and the periods the fans refuse to acknowledge at all.

[phookz]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

What does 'focus' actually do? The only thing it does that other limitations don't really do is allow someone to remove the power from you until you can retrieve or re-create the focus. That is possibly worth -1/4 if the focus is obviously the power source and is accessible, otherwise it is probably not worth anything: if you are out of combat and in a position where someone can make you give up your power, you are probably defeated anyway - it isn't going to come up that often, not often enough for a limitation.

 

...

 

IIF becomes just Focus (-1/4)

IAF becomes Focus PLUS Restrainable (halved) (-1/2)

OIF becomes just Focus - (-1/4) and maybe 'Obvious' if the power wouldn't have been (like Resistant Protection)

OAF becomes Focus PLUS Restrainable (-3/4) and maybe Obvious too.

 

There: that's saved about 4 pages

This is pretty interesting idea, something I'll have to mull over for a while, but I like the approach. I doubt I would use it over the RAW, but it's an interesting approach to redefining them. I'm dubious that you're really saving much in terms of the pages... you still have to explain rules about how things can be taken away etc. Rules that aren't in OIAD and Restrainable because they already are handled by Focus.

 

I would say that having to give up your focus doesn't mean defeat necessarily; it really depends on how the game is run. Most Fantasy Games I've played required us to give up our weapons at some point (going to see a noble, for example). But you could argue that this is no different than OIAD.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

Personally I am going to ignore Armor Piercing and Penetrating for purposes of destroying a Focus. Just because those can punch through defenses to the character beneath doesn't mean they do more damage to the defense itself (I might consider another Advantage that specifically makes a power better at destroying Foci, like treating Durable Foci as normal [EDIT:B]reakable ones or something). And second I think I am going to assume that only Durable or Unbreakable armor automatically gets hit if it provides defenses to the character (and that's only if the Focus is Durable or Unbreakable with respect to the defenses it provides; the Durability of the Focus for the other powers bought through it doesn't affect whether it's automatically hit by attacks). And third I am going to have the Real Armor provide some Breakable aspects to even Unbreakable armor, so that Unbreakable armor makes some sense even in heroic games.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

As an inveterate tinkerer, even though I'm arguing against 'focus', one option might be to give powers 'Body', so, for instance, each power in a focus has AP/10 notional Body, and any damage through the defences of the focus would be assigned by the GM to a power (or split between several), which would 'die' when its Body was exceeded. A cunning GM might cause a power that had taken damage to malfuncton (assign a 14- activation when 1/4 damage taken, 11- when 1/2 damage taken and 8- when 3/4 damage taken - or some other unreliability mechanism).

 

Much more paperwork but you could devolve that to the player (Yes, it IS part of taking the limitation), it adds a definite layer of realism and stops 'penetrating' being as nasty to foci as it currently is.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

Or you could just exchange each point of Body past a Focus's defenses into an equivalent (remember each point of Body is worth 2 Active Points for Adjustment Powers) number of Active Points of Drain that must be repaired rather than Fading. That's somewhat equivalent I guess, but a little more direct. Or some other similar conversion, like 1d6 Drain per point of Body, or whatever.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

Or you could just exchange each point of Body past a Focus's defenses into an equivalent (remember each point of Body is worth 2 Active Points for Adjustment Powers) number of Active Points of Drain that must be repaired rather than Fading. That's somewhat equivalent I guess' date=' but a little more direct. Or some other similar conversion, like 1d6 Drain per point of Body, or whatever.[/quote']

 

 

Nice.

[NestorDRod]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

If any Body damage gets through your armour' date=' you don't have armour any more (unless it has other powers too, in which case it might survive the hit). Not a lot of people know that.[/quote']

 

Since when?

 

Edit: That's what I get for firing off a response before reading the rest of the post.

 

Y'know, I made the joke in another thread about the game's design philosophy being "whenever possible, make it more complicated."

 

Now I'm starting to wonder who the joke is on...

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

on a related note, how does 6e address the repair / power restoration of Foci?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

on a related note' date=' how does 6e address the repair / power restoration of Foci?[/quote']

 

Same as 5E, I believe. That is, it doesn't suggest anything specific other than that it shouldn't cost character points. The rest is comprised of the same vague kind of suggestions we've had all along.

[torchwolf]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

Strange thing about Focus, is that Unbreakable ones can have some of the issues that Foci made with the now-obsolete Independent limitation had.

OTOH, there is another aspect: both Accessible and Inaccessible Foci can be targeted. An Unbreakable Foci can of course not usually be destroyed, but at least taken away during combat - even if it is Inobvious (though at a penalty).

That said, I agree the issue needs to be addressed.

These are interesting ideas.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

Thanks, Prestidigitator. I thought probably.

 

Or you could just exchange each point of Body past a Focus's defenses into an equivalent (remember each point of Body is worth 2 Active Points for Adjustment Powers) number of Active Points of Drain that must be repaired rather than Fading.

 

:rofl:

 

As I was reading through the stuff since my last post, I was thinking something along those lines. Perhaps "time required" could relate to the extent of damage to the Foci:

 

every 1/4 total AP bumps the repair time a level on the time chart or something? Within reason, I mean. I don't think I'd ever tell a character he had to wait a month to fix his Gizmatic, particularly since, if it was a primary power that he paid points for, I'd willingly accept that he kept a spare back at the lab.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

I don't see Unbreakable as an issue. And I don't see the need for "must go away for a long time" either.

 

Unbreakable - upside: they can't break your focus. downside: you can't break your focus when they steal it.

[Balabanto]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

If any Body damage gets through your armour' date=' you don't have armour any more (unless it has other powers too, in which case it might survive the hit). Not a lot of people know that.[/quote']

 

This is technically only 85 percent correct. When the armor provides a group of powers, defensive powers are always destroyed last. This includes the resistant defense provided by the focus.

 

If, by some miracle, the attack does double the body of the resistant defense the focus provides, then the entire focus is destroyed. This is VERY hard to do.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

If, by some miracle, the attack does double the body of the resistant defense the focus provides, then the entire focus is destroyed. This is VERY hard to do.

 

So I'm clear here:

 

is this any single attack, or a cumulative value of damage totaling BODYx2?

[Sean Waters]

Re: Hero Basic 6th : Destructible FOCUS and Power Armor

 

This is technically only 85 percent correct. When the armor provides a group of powers, defensive powers are always destroyed last. This includes the resistant defense provided by the focus.

 

If, by some miracle, the attack does double the body of the resistant defense the focus provides, then the entire focus is destroyed. This is VERY hard to do.

 

 

So it was correct: if the defensive power is the only one, any hit kills it, if it isn't the defensive power is likely to survive the hit.

 

For what it is worth, I'm fully cogniscent of the fact that the result this gives is ridiculous. Perhaps 'Focus' should work differently for defensive powers? It should be clear that defences are only 'killed' by something that destroys the whole focus - but the trade off would be a lower focus value, as focus limits defensive powers less. -1/4 less, perhaps.