Negatory

[ghost-angel]

Re: Negatory

 

What about a whole bunch of little ones(everybody has a 2-shot stasis bazooka)? 6d6 gets 5 points through at a time. 16 hits gets him to SPD 0.

8d6 would take only 7 hits, and 10d6 would take 4 or 5.

 

I don't believe you can partially Drain like that... but I could be wrong.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Negatory

 

Why should there be a point at whic there is no more effect from continuied application?

 

Why shouldn't there be?

 

You can only remove so much, you can only remove as much as they have.

 

You can't take more apples out of the barrel than are in it to start with. You can prevent people from putting apples back for a while, there's only so many to take out.

 

That's why I like a Floor of 0.

 

Make it all go away, and it's all gone away.

[megaplayboy]

Re: Negatory

 

I don't believe you can partially Drain like that... but I could be wrong.

 

So, then they need 8d6 Drain vs. SPD, AoE(+1/4)--Stasis Bomb(100 active, 2 charges, OAF, cheap!)

and then they need to hit him 8 times. Once he's down to SPD 0, he can't teleport away anymore. They can proceed to beat him into comaville and gradually work on making the armor non-functional.

 

Of course I'm assuming Steve's next version will be barrier-equipped and suitably futile for all but 120+ active point PCs.

[jtelson]

Re: Negatory

 

With regards to poisons that affect the target's health or DEX' date=' I would ask what effect you're trying to achieve - once we know that we can work on a build to achieve that.[/quote']

 

It's not a question of can we find a way to build it - been playing the game for a little while now - there's almost nothing I can't find a way to build - it's why do we need to find a way, when we had a way, and we're still doing all of the same bookkeeping anyway.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: Negatory

 

Why shouldn't there be?

 

You can only remove so much, you can only remove as much as they have.

 

You can't more apples out of the barrel than are in it to start with. You can prevent people from putting apples back for a while, there's only so many to take out.

 

That's why I like a Floor of 0.

 

Make it all go away, and it's all gone away.

Well said! Repped!

[phookz]

Re: Negatory

 

We ought to have a new power called 'Cool Stuff' which costs 5 points, no END and can be used to do cool stuff that has no effect on combat and only minor or occasional effects on the game. You can not apply power modifiers or adders to 'Cool Stuff'. Cool Stuff can only have an effect in your immediate vicinity unless having an effect further away would be cool. It can be Instant or Constant but is always Obvious. That's the point.

 

Wonder Woman style 'instant change'? Cool Stuff. Surrounded by hovering balls of light that quietly sing Gregorian Chants? Cool Stuff. Teeth glint when you smile? Cool Stuff. You can use a low power version of your Laser Vision as a torch? Cool Stuff. Every radio within 50 m of you blares the first three bars of 'God Save The Queen' when you appear? Cool Stuff. You can always pull the Ace of Spades out of a deck of cards? Cool Stuff.

 

I could go on, but you get the idea

 

I like this idea. I think for some of these you could probably hand wave a power trick or based on the SFX the character has, but I think it would be an interesting talent.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Negatory

 

Well said! Repped!

 

Thank you.

 

Something else occured to me - there's now consistency in the system, or a little more.

 

You can't drain an Energy Blast past 0 Active Points. Or Any other Power. Or even more to the point - Characteristics Bought As Powers.

 

Why should Characteristics break that mold? Removing negative characteristics brought them in line with everything else.

 

In fact, it should go a step further - 0 is 0. Once you get it to 0 in anything you're done. No -1D6 Energy Blast. No -10 STR. No -33 EGO. Just Zero.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Negatory

 

In fact' date=' it should go a step further - 0 is 0. Once you get it to 0 in anything you're done. No -1D6 Energy Blast. No -10 STR. No -33 EGO. Just Zero.[/quote']

 

Fine. If we're going to insist on that degree of consistency, better include Stun and Body as well.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Negatory

 

At least STUN and BODY are supposed to be reduceable Characteristics.

 

But sure, why not. 0 Body is Dead. 0 Stun is Unconcious.

[Hierax]

Re: Negatory

 

A Value of 0 with a CHAR should give 0 for a Characteristic or a Skill Roll with that Characteristic.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Negatory

 

I think I know why I would floor the characteristics at 0 and the whole mental Breakout roll discussion above is why. In the whole "dramatic reality" gig, the mind controlled slave almost always seems to be able to make that last ditch force of will to avoid killing their loved ones. It may be more tactically sound to drain a target until they have absolutely no chance of resisting orders, but it doesn't reflect some aspects of dramatic sense.

 

So I suppose it all depends on what you are taking from the game. I am certain that the new rules are compatible enough that you can use the guidelines from the 5th edition in much the same way. If that is what you want out of your game, then far be it from me to judge. For myself, I will stick to the dramatic and leave the minute tactical details to others.

[Nevenall]

Re: Negatory

 

I think I know why I would floor the characteristics at 0 and the whole mental Breakout roll discussion above is why. In the whole "dramatic reality" gig, the mind controlled slave almost always seems to be able to make that last ditch force of will to avoid killing their loved ones. It may be more tactically sound to drain a target until they have absolutely no chance of resisting orders, but it doesn't reflect some aspects of dramatic sense.

 

So I suppose it all depends on what you are taking from the game. I am certain that the new rules are compatible enough that you can use the guidelines from the 5th edition in much the same way. If that is what you want out of your game, then far be it from me to judge. For myself, I will stick to the dramatic and leave the minute tactical details to others.

 

I agree. Very muchly.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Negatory

 

16pts' date=' Hardened. You're going to need a very big Drain. . .[/quote']

 

I do not have anything with Dr D in it at present, but IIRC, Dr D has an enormous number of points and massive active point attacks. Even if you are working on half his points and active points, 16 points of power defence won't slow you down much. What is his SPD? 8? An 80 point drain will do 28 average damage, which gets 12 points though defences: each hit weakens him by 1/8 then 1/7 then 1/6 then 1/5 then 1/4 then 1/2 then 1/2 then he's done. 7 hits. End of a monster.

[Nevenall]

Re: Negatory

 

I do not have anything with Dr D in it at present' date=' but IIRC, Dr D has an enormous number of points and massive active point attacks. Even if you are working on half his points and active points, 16 points of power defence won't slow you down much. What is his SPD? 8? An 80 point drain will do 28 average damage, which gets 12 points though defences: each hit weakens him by 1/8 then 1/7 then 1/6 then 1/5 then 1/4 then 1/2 then 1/2 then he's done. 7 hits. End of a monster.[/quote']

 

For now...

[Sean Waters]

Re: Negatory

 

I think I know why I would floor the characteristics at 0 and the whole mental Breakout roll discussion above is why. In the whole "dramatic reality" gig, the mind controlled slave almost always seems to be able to make that last ditch force of will to avoid killing their loved ones. It may be more tactically sound to drain a target until they have absolutely no chance of resisting orders, but it doesn't reflect some aspects of dramatic sense.

 

So I suppose it all depends on what you are taking from the game. I am certain that the new rules are compatible enough that you can use the guidelines from the 5th edition in much the same way. If that is what you want out of your game, then far be it from me to judge. For myself, I will stick to the dramatic and leave the minute tactical details to others.

 

This whole argument is predicated on being hit with both an EGO drain and a mind control. Sure that is nasty.

 

Ever consider a CON drain and a normal Blast?

 

Synergies are - or can be - horribly potent. That is no argument at all for crippling one of the powers.

 

I assume that people who are really concerned about this have encountered vindictive, unpleasnat GMs who don't give a damn about anything but winning, whatever that means.

 

Sack the GM. Play the game.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Negatory

 

Again, once CON hits 0 it's the same difference between a -10000 CON and 0 CON - Only takes 1 Stun to be Stunned. Negative CON serves little to no purpose beyond how long it takes to get back. So why waste space discussing negative CON?

 

Seems to me very few Characteristics can even be seen to matter below 0 and at that point for the sake of the almighty consistency (which I've seen you roll out Sean...) all of them stop at 0 for purpose of what happens next.

 

Personally, I've never felt the need to be either consistent or predictable. Would have suited me if STR and EGO had Negative Effects, suits me just fine without as well. I like the floor just to know that once all the apples are gone, all the apples are gone and there's no apple deficit.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Negatory

 

This whole argument is predicated on being hit with both an EGO drain and a mind control. Sure that is nasty.

You are assuming an argument. I was really stating an opinion derived from reading a few of the posts in this very thread. I really have no desire to try to change your opinion. I am simply glad that HERO can be versatile enough to allow for multiple styles of play.

[Duke Bushido]

Re: Negatory

 

There are two points that I've been trying to get my own feelings on; so far I can go either way on the first one:

 

As someone (was it G-A?) pointed out, negative characteristics _did_ have a tangible effect, at least with regard to Drain and Aid. Continued application of Drain would make a characteristic lower and lower (though I think 4 and 5e put a "floor" on most of -30; I can't recall), and that did "keep a man down" longer than would a score of Zero. Not as long as buying a level or two down the time chart, of course, but not as expensively, either.

 

The second aspect applies primarily to STR, and has to do with modeling things. I haven't seen as much of it since I came back here, but my first time through, I discovered that there are those folks who truly enjoy modeling every single aspect of their world once they figure out that the system lets them do that very thing. Questions like "what's the DEF of gypsum drywall" and "how much STR would a typical beside table have" weren't that unusual.

 

It's not something I've been that big into personally-- I've never had an issue with simply saying "okay, you whack him with the table, give yourself an extra die of damage, and the table shatters." But I can see _wanting_ to model something with a -15 STR. "If I kick the table and knock my weapon onto the Roomba, is the Roomba strong enough to carry it around, or will I break it?" That sort of thing.

 

Now please: understand that I've not seen the 6e STR chart yet, so this second one may be a complete non-issue.

 

Anyway, the thoughts are free, and worth every penny of it.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Negatory

 

For now...

 

[Sean Waters]

Re: Negatory

 

There are two points that I've been trying to get my own feelings on; so far I can go either way on the first one:

 

As someone (was it G-A?) pointed out, negative characteristics _did_ have a tangible effect, at least with regard to Drain and Aid. Continued application of Drain would make a characteristic lower and lower (though I think 4 and 5e put a "floor" on most of -30; I can't recall), and that did "keep a man down" longer than would a score of Zero. Not as long as buying a level or two down the time chart, of course, but not as expensively, either.

 

.....................

 

Anyway, the thoughts are free, and worth every penny of it.

 

 

That has not changed at all: you still have to count negative characteristics for recovery purposes, it is just that you stop at zero for characteristic roll purposes.

 

See - it's causing confusion already

[Sean Waters]

Re: Negatory

 

Thank you.

 

Something else occured to me - there's now consistency in the system, or a little more.

 

You can't drain an Energy Blast past 0 Active Points. Or Any other Power. Or even more to the point - Characteristics Bought As Powers.

 

Why should Characteristics break that mold? Removing negative characteristics brought them in line with everything else.

 

In fact, it should go a step further - 0 is 0. Once you get it to 0 in anything you're done. No -1D6 Energy Blast. No -10 STR. No -33 EGO. Just Zero.

 

...there's a reason for that: when you get to zero points of EB, there is no EB. It is all gone. You can't Blast if you roll low. I'm asking the same for INT and DEX and such: why shouldn't you be able to drain it until it is all gone? This seems like an argument against your own position.

 

If zero is the point at which it is all gone, fine, but then you shouldn't be able to use it at all at that point, if you value consistency, just like you can not use a Blast drained to zero. Clearly DEX isn't all gone at zero because you can still use it.

[jtelson]

Re: Negatory

 

Now that I think about it why don't we track EB drain into the red...Like characteristics, just to keep track of how long it takes to come back?

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Negatory

 

What about a whole bunch of little ones(everybody has a 2-shot stasis bazooka)? 6d6 gets 5 points through at a time. 16 hits gets him to SPD 0.

8d6 would take only 7 hits, and 10d6 would take 4 or 5.

 

What would these same attacks do to a lesser opponent?

 

For that matter, change that to a 12d6, 16d6 or 20d6 Energy Blast? 16 hits, 7 hits or 4-5 hist, respectively, seems like it would inflict a lot of damage.

 

Change it to 60/80/100 AP of other exotic attacks, and I suspect they would be quite effective as well.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Negatory

 

Now that I think about it why don't we track EB drain into the red...Like characteristics' date=' just to keep track of how long it takes to come back?[/quote']

 

I do...haven't actually looked to see if I'm supposed to

[Starlight]

Re: Negatory

 

Sean, correct me if I'm missing your main point but it seems that your concern is that it's not possible with a fixed floor for a characteristic value of zero (0) to completely nullify the benefits of the affected characteristic. The point was mentioned that draining EGO to 0 only reduced the base EGO breakout roll to 9-. Unlike an Energy Blast drained away to 0pts when the power is totally useless, in the case of EGO, and some additional characteristics, you haven't reached a true floor. There are still residual benefits; 9- base rolls for skills is one such benefit.

 

Alternatives which have been suggested, the Transform to mindless state, for example, are not solutions to the basic issue. In the case of the Transform it is perfectly suitable for some special effects - but fails to provide a valid means of steadily draining away a target's EGO until they reach the point of mindlessness. Modelling, as a counter example, a surgical procedure where a person's brain is 'switched off' by an implanted device would be a suitable case for the Transform rather than an EGO drain. EGO drain and Transform are different powers for a good reason.

 

It seems to be, in my view, that the true floor for many characteristic values is actually -27. What I mean by this is that we can rewrite the classic skill roll formula as

 

0 + (CHA+27)/3

 

Resetting the 0 value for characteristics to what is now the -27 value would allow a smooth reduction of base skill and EGO breakout rolls all the way down to 0. I'm not in any way suggesting this. It would wreak utter havoc in many other aspects of the rules. But as an academic exercise it gives a fresh viewpoint from which to look at this issue.

 

As a quick and dirty solution within the 6th edition rules regarding characteristics, a house rule that a characteristic value of zero (0) means that characteristic provides NO benefits. Skills based on the characteristic are not useable at all. Characters with an EGO value of zero (0) do not get a breakout roll. If you want to be a little less harsh, pick an arbitrary base for a zero valued characteristic, 3- or 5- or whatever.