Long Distance Communication

[Lezentauw]

It seems when you watch most show set in the future, the ability to communicate is almost instant without any lag. There are those certain episodes where the ship is out of communication range, but for the most part that is a rare occasion.

 

While I do like space opera shows, the ability to always be able to instantly communicate with home base, seems a bit more than far fetched. I am wondering, if anyone knows, what are the "accepted" methods of long distance communications.

[Nyrath]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

It seems when you watch most show set in the future, the ability to communicate is almost instant without any lag. There are those certain episodes where the ship is out of communication range, but for the most part that is a rare occasion.

 

While I do like space opera shows, the ability to always be able to instantly communicate with home base, seems a bit more than far fetched. I am wondering, if anyone knows, what are the "accepted" methods of long distance communications.

Well, back in Olden Days, in the classic TOS Star Trek, Captain Kirk would sometime have to wait a couple of weeks to get a response back from Starfleet. Subspace radio was faster than a starship, but not by much.

 

If starships are faster than radio, you have an "age of Sail" situation (i.e., pre-morse code and undersea telegraph cables). Otherwise you have more of an "age of Steam" situation (where there are steam ships, radio, but no airplanes).

[Cancer]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

The ability of time delays, when compounded with hidden agendas and underhanded dealings, to completely confound all parties in a collective enterprise -- especially when they are in an environment with unknown physical dangers -- is the main theme of Hal Clement's Star Light. That was (IIRC) a 90-minute light-travel-time lag between the orbiting humans and several Mesklinite ground stations. The ground stations could not communicate with each other except via the humans.

[Lezentauw]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

Looks like the "age of sail" situation is the one that makes the most sense to me. I could accept a light beam to transmit data and communications, but they only travel at the speed of light.

 

This would make communicating for help pretty hard, unless the other ships are in the same sector.

[Nyrath]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

Looks like the "age of sail" situation is the one that makes the most sense to me. I could accept a light beam to transmit data and communications, but they only travel at the speed of light.

 

This would make communicating for help pretty hard, unless the other ships are in the same sector.

In the RPG Traveller, the fastest method of communication is a starship. So the Imperium established the Express boat network

http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Express_Boat

X-boats are stripped down one man starships that do nothing but rapidly do FTL jumps in order to hand-carry information.

 

In the Starfire novels, they use unmanned "courier drones". These are large torpedoes programmed to do FTL jumps while carrying messages.

[BobGreenwade]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

The usual explanation for Star Trek communications is "subspace," which (IIRC) uses a method similar to other settings' "Hyperspace travel" except that it's used for communication instead of transportation. In short, the transmissions are sent through a parallel universe where the laws of science are different -- either the space between two points is compressed, light travels more quickly, or time passes more quickly, but in any event the effect is that a radio-style communication can travel between points much more quickly, so that conversations within a system can happen in real time, and messages that would normally take years instead only take days.

 

In real-world physics, it could be possible to open a tiny wormhole between two points and send data (such as radio messages) that way. If we can ever harness quantum entanglement -- physicists today think it's impossible, but you never know -- that would be another possibility for instantaneous transmission over unlimited distances.

[clsage]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

In the RPG Traveller, the fastest method of communication is a starship. So the Imperium established the Express boat network

http://traveller.wikia.com/wiki/Express_Boat

X-boats are stripped down one man starships that do nothing but rapidly do FTL jumps in order to hand-carry information.

 

Which, funnily enough, is also the basic method used in the initial episodes of "Gene Roddenberry's Andromeda". Since the only method of interstellar (and intergalactic, given the shows references ) travel was to use "slipstream space", which only a sentient being could navigate successfully. Something to do with quantum entanglement and the effect on such by the pilots choices..... But given that premise, courier ships were the only method for transmission of messages beyond interplanetary ranges.

 

There was often a communications lag, dependent on the distance in "realspace" as well. Scripts would toss off references to "light minutes" and such.

 

That said, I also have to mention the method from MechWarrior: Hyperpulse Transmitters. Described in one of the novels as (basically) "the working end of a stardrive" the HPG creates a link to another HPG and the messages are sent as packets of data via the wormhole (or equivalent). Which ends up creating a web effect, with messages being passed on station to station. Much akin to the Xboats and its Poni Express style, except that HPGs must be stationed planetside. So courier ships and such are still required, at least to some degree.

 

-Carl-

 

PS No...it's not a misspelling. The emblem for the Xboat Service (on the left side of this page: http://members.tip.net.au/~davidjw/libdata/alphabet/e/exprboat.htm#Top ) refers to a beast of burden from a world other than Earth....Classic Traveller humor.....

[Tom Carman]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

Well' date=' back in Olden Days, in the classic TOS Star Trek, Captain Kirk would sometime have to wait a couple of weeks to get a response back from Starfleet. Subspace radio was faster than a starship, but not by much.[/quote']

 

There seemed to be some variability in Star Trek's message transmission speeds. Part of it was probably the "speed of plot" issue, but they seemed to communicate much faster close to home than out on remote exploratory missions. Fast enough for realtime communication from one side of Federation space to the other. There may be more than one communication technology in use here: very fast with some type of infrastructure close in, and relatively slow long-range comms that don't need a relay network.

[Nyrath]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

In the Renegade Legion series of games, FTL comms small enough to mount on a starship were quite limited and slow. Fast FTL comms were huge installations. Which of course made them prime military targets.

[Yansuf]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

There seemed to be some variability in Star Trek's message transmission speeds. Part of it was probably the "speed of plot" issue' date=' but they seemed to communicate [u']much[/u] faster close to home than out on remote exploratory missions. Fast enough for realtime communication from one side of Federation space to the other. There may be more than one communication technology in use here: very fast with some type of infrastructure close in, and relatively slow long-range comms that don't need a relay network.

 

It was a "speed of plot" effect.

[Clonus]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

There seemed to be some variability in Star Trek's message transmission speeds. Part of it was probably the "speed of plot" issue' date=' but they seemed to communicate [u']much[/u] faster close to home than out on remote exploratory missions. Fast enough for realtime communication from one side of Federation space to the other. There may be more than one communication technology in use here: very fast with some type of infrastructure close in, and relatively slow long-range comms that don't need a relay network.

 

Enterprise actually said that the difference was made by a network of buoys that somehow sped up communication. However, one approach I have considered is one where it takes a long time to establish a communications link, but once established there is no time delay (insert quantum entanglement handwave here).

[Sundog]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

AN idea I've been toying with is to have most areas serviced only by spacecraft, but have a "Direct - Feed" network at the hearts of major empires, basically wormholes that are kept permanently open (at massive cost in power and wealth). The difference between "Core Worlds" and "Frontier" (or "Exploited") is more or less whether you can afford to run a Direct-Feed station.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

Another possibility would be communication through trained psychics rather than technology. Whatever you believe about such abilities in reality, documentation suggests that they defy all restrictions of time or distance.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

In the Starfire novels' date=' they use unmanned "courier drones". These are large torpedoes programmed to do FTL jumps while carrying messages.[/quote']

 

That concept in fiction goes back at least as far as the 1930s "Skylark" series of novels by E.E. "Doc" Smith, introduce in his book Skylark Three.

 

There seemed to be some variability in Star Trek's message transmission speeds. Part of it was probably the "speed of plot" issue' date=' but they seemed to communicate [u']much[/u] faster close to home than out on remote exploratory missions. Fast enough for realtime communication from one side of Federation space to the other. There may be more than one communication technology in use here: very fast with some type of infrastructure close in, and relatively slow long-range comms that don't need a relay network.

 

Lag in communication time was a significant factor in Gene Roddenbery's concept for the original Star Trek series. He was following the precedent of the "Hornblower" novel series by C.S. Forester, in which a ship's captain could be called upon to make major decisions without benefit of consulting his superiors.

 

Some of the early Next Generation episodes followed this precedent, but as the series progressed Captain Picard increasingly spoke to various admirals in real time. My impression is that this was mostly used to set up conflicts between what he wanted to do and what Star Fleet demanded of him.

[Nyrath]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

That concept in fiction goes back at least as far as the 1930s "Skylark" series of novels by E.E. "Doc" Smith' date=' introduce in his book [i']Skylark Three[/i].

D'oh!! {slaps forehead}

How could I have forgotten the Fenachrome message torpedoes! I'm usually pretty good a plugging how Doc Smith invented most of the standard SF concepts back in the 1930's

 

{you must spread some more reputation before giving it to Lord Liaden again...}

[Jagged]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

It seems when you watch most show set in the future, the ability to communicate is almost instant without any lag. There are those certain episodes where the ship is out of communication range, but for the most part that is a rare occasion.

 

While I do like space opera shows, the ability to always be able to instantly communicate with home base, seems a bit more than far fetched. I am wondering, if anyone knows, what are the "accepted" methods of long distance communications.

 

I suspect most people are aware of the weird feature of light and how it seems to travel all possible routes. And that polarisation effects at one end of a possible path can be seen and measured along a different possible path.

 

Imagine all the various hurdles were jumped and someone discovered a way to use this or similar phenomenon for communication. Communication relays could be setup throughout space that fire small beams of information into hyperspace* to other relay stations. The beam could take a week (or longer) to perform the round trip but once established instantaneous communication could take place.

 

Starships travelling through space could use similar methods to communicate with the nearest relay. This would allow them to have face-to-face real time conversations with family or Admirals or whoever but such communication would still take hours/days to initialise.

 

Such a system would allow a GM the ability to offer face to face communication and at the same time keep his/her players nicely isolated when appropriate.

 

 

* warp/subspace/whatever

[Cancer]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

I suspect most people are aware of the weird feature of light and how it seems to travel all possible routes. And that polarisation effects at one end of a possible path can be seen and measured along a different possible path.

 

Imagine all the various hurdles were jumped and someone discovered a way to use this or similar phenomenon for communication. Communication relays could be setup throughout space that fire small beams of information into hyperspace* to other relay stations. The beam could take a week (or longer) to perform the round trip but once established instantaneous communication could take place.

 

Starships travelling through space could use similar methods to communicate with the nearest relay. This would allow them to have face-to-face real time conversations with family or Admirals or whoever but such communication would still take hours/days to initialise.

 

Such a system would allow a GM the ability to offer face to face communication and at the same time keep his/her players nicely isolated when appropriate.

 

An Evil GM would throw in (as suited his needs ) Faraday rotation by the randomly-oriented galactic magnetic field (or handwaved magnetic effects in hyperspace) to demodulate the signals whenever it was convenient for the plot. (FWIW, Faraday rotation by free electrons, which is what you have in the interstellar medium, is wavelenth-dependent and causes important dispersion of the radio bursts from pulsars.) Also, the interstellar magnetic field tends to line up dust grains along the field lines, which results in polarization being imposed upon starlight (which is not polarized to begin with) seen through lots of dust.

[Clonus]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

Another possibility would be communication through trained psychics rather than technology. Whatever you believe about such abilities in reality' date=' documentation suggests that they defy all restrictions of time or distance.[/quote']

 

I don't know what sixth edition has done with Mind Search, but I did one Star Hero game where I exploited the unlimited range of Mind Search as long as there weren't a lot of minds around, by having the Patrol Ships operate out of bases that were in interstellar space so that telepaths would have only a thousand or so minds to adjust their rolls.

[Ian Mackinder]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

Lag in communication time was a significant factor in Gene Roddenbery's concept for the original Star Trek series. He was following the precedent of the "Hornblower" novel series by C.S. Forester, in which a ship's captain could be called upon to make major decisions without benefit of consulting his superiors.

 

Some of the early Next Generation episodes followed this precedent, but as the series progressed Captain Picard increasingly spoke to various admirals in real time. My impression is that this was mostly used to set up conflicts between what he wanted to do and what Star Fleet demanded of him.

 

A couple of Star Trek's 'technical' books stated that local variations in time-space curvature and other conditions affected subspace radio to varying degrees - favourably in some instances and not so in others. Indeed, a number of episodes showed conditions (such as some stars) could affect reception / transmission.

 

I refereed a few campaigns of FASA Trek many years ago, and came up with my own slant on this, based on pure speculation and an absence of evidence to the contrary. Subspace radio can be affected by various conditions, yes, and there are relays in various places, but a major factor is also how much power can be put into the signal. We think of Trekverse starships as being powerful, but the space given over to communications gear is relatively small.

 

Starbases, on the other hand, are usually planet-based installations or frackin' BIG space stations. They have immense power reserves - and communications / sensor arrays bigger than entire starships.

 

So, a "normal" subspace message between starbase and starship may take a variable (but fairly predictable) length of time. But, if the starbase commander needs to talk real-time with a starship captain RIGHT NOW, then it is just a matter if cranking up the power and pointing the arrays the right way. The starbase comms can effectively "tunnel" through subspace so that the starship they are connecting to can often talk back without much effort on its part - the starbase is paying most if not all of the power requirements.

 

We eventually saw hints of this in 'Voyager', with Star Fleet's "Pathfinder" project - their effort to communicate with USS Voyager. I recall one Lt. Barclay using unorthodox measures to amplify a signal enough so that they could finally establish semi-reliable comminications.

[Nyrath]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

A couple of Star Trek's 'technical' books stated that local variations in time-space curvature and other conditions affected subspace radio to varying degrees - favourably in some instances and not so in others.

In other words, the speed of subspace radio is the speed of the plot.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

In other words' date=' the speed of subspace radio is the speed of the plot.[/quote']

 

Then again if the speed of subspace travel is similarly affected, you can make a good case for the existence of actual space trade routes (corridors of rapid-transit space) and strategic chokepoints and "passes" (zones of slow-transit space with small faster-transit paths). Survey/mapping expeditions have increased importance.

[egaroadkill]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

I’ve run many a fine 2300AD campaign starting the players off in an Xpress boat delivery service relaying data and parcels up and down the French arm. When, the GM forces data to travel at the speed of shipping between the stars, all sorts of room opens for adventure hooks and intrigue.

 

Too heck with reliable instantaneous communications, gimmie a courier for good plot every time!

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

Yup, I'm going "age of sail" more or less for my campaign.

 

No FTL Comms, only FTL ships. And FTL drives are BIG so no FTL probes or courier drones - you need a full on starship.

 

FTL ships take days to weeks for "local routes" (the nearest few neighbors, out to about 10 LY - I plan to conver to parsecs someday, but had a question which will be another thread once I find the time to post it.)

 

The one caveat to that in my setting is Psionics - Psions can create a link between themselves and another Psion, which is retained at distance, and allows for a brief, tenous communication. Works kind of like quantum entanglement, as soon as it is used, it is gone. The link has to be created while the Psions are in the same room - then maintained until used or lost (EGO roll at setup, EGO roll when used) - and allows for only a single message and single reply.

[Clonus]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

Then again if the speed of subspace travel is similarly affected' date=' you can make a good case for the existence of actual space trade routes (corridors of rapid-transit space) and strategic chokepoints and "passes" (zones of slow-transit space with small faster-transit paths). Survey/mapping expeditions have increased importance.[/quote']

 

Of course it depends on the time as well as the place (so Star Trek has "favourable winds" or "calms"). And this is the reason why speed is measured in "warp factors" rather than in terms of parsecs/hour.

[Kristopher]

Re: Long Distance Communication

 

On the "effect on game" side, it does make it harder for PCs to have contacts, DNPCs that aren't along on the travels, etc, if there's absolutely no FTL comms.