RexMundi Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Out of Idle Boredom, and we all know how boredom tends to effect the thought processes, like most fans of any genre I'll often sit back and go, "Hmmm......I wonder who would win?" So, I compiled a few of these together, and decided to post them here in the various. The rules are simple. Pick your winner, then explain why, and or why not. Simple really. SO, to start things off, I offer up, the first batch of contestants. Contestant 1: The Shadow. Now do folks really ned the background of the Shadow? Well I suppose there is a SLIM chance out there that there is a pulp fan that doesn't really know WHO the Shadow is, or worse, only has the Alec Baldwin movie to go by (Rex of course is thankful for the NEW movie coming out that will repair that damage)......For those not in the know: In print, The Shadow's secret identity is Kent Allard, a famed aviator who fought for the French during World War I. He is known by the alias of The Black Eagle ("The Shadow's Shadow", 1933), although later stories revised this alias as The Dark Eagle ("The Shadow Unmasks", 1937). After the war, Allard seeks a new challenge and decides to wage war on criminals. Allard fakes his death in the South American jungles, then returns to the United States. Arriving in New York City, he adopts numerous identities to conceal his existence. One of these identities is Lamont Cranston, a "wealthy young man about town." In the pulps, Cranston is a separate character; Allard frequently disguises himself as Cranston and adopts his identity ("The Shadow Laughs," 1931). While Cranston travels the world, Allard assumes his identity in New York. In their first meeting, Allard/The Shadow threatens Cranston, saying that he has arranged to switch signatures on various documents and other means that will allow him to take over the Lamont Cranston identity entirely unless Cranston agrees to allow Allard to impersonate him when he is abroad. Terrified, Cranston agrees. The two men sometimes meet in order to impersonate each other ("Crime over Miami," 1940). Apparently, the disguise works well because Allard and Cranston bear something of a resemblance to each other ("Dictator of Crime," 1941). His other disguises include businessman Henry Arnaud, elderly gentleman Isaac Twambley, and Fritz, a doddering old janitor who works at Police Headquarters in order to listen in on conversations. For the first half of The Shadow's tenure in the pulps, his past and identity are ambiguous, supposedly an intentional decision on Gibson's part. In "The Living Shadow," a thug claims to have seen The Shadow's face, and thought he saw "a piece of white that looked like a bandage." In "The Black Master" and "The Shadow's Shadow," the villains both see The Shadow's true face, and they both remark that The Shadow is a man of many faces with no face of his own. It was not until the August 1937 issue, "The Shadow Unmasks," that The Shadow's real name is revealed. In the radio drama, the Allard secret identity was dropped for simplicity's sake. On the radio, The Shadow was only Lamont Cranston; he had no other aliases or disguises. As for what he could do, Only the Shadow truly knows, though one could assume the Power to Cloud Mens Minds, and to know what evil lurks in the heart there off, are pretty handy for a Night Stalking Guns Blazing crime fighter, of the sort that was the inspiration for Bat-Man and more. The Shadow, is Very much, a Pulp Icon, one whoose voice is still chilling to hear, especially if one is up to evil deeds.....But then....Is the Shadow up to facing a foe, or a rival, the likes of: Contestant 2: The SPIDER...MASTER of MEN! Now the Spider.....THIS, is a really interesting character. One could say, he's a copy of The Shadow, or visa versa....... For those not in the know of course, and unfortunately I have run into many the pulp fan without a clue as to who The Spider was, we can offer up this as well: The Spider was created by Harry Steeger at Popular Publications in 1933 as competition to Street and Smith Publications' vigilante hero, The Shadow. Similar to the character of The Shadow, The Spider was in actuality millionaire playboy Richard Wentworth living in New York and unaffected by the Great Depression. Wentworth fought crime by donning a cape, mask, and slouch hat, and terrorizing the criminal underworld with extreme prejudice and his brand of vigilante justice. The stories often involved a bizarre menace and a criminal conspiracy and were often extremely violent. The first story was written by R. T. M. Scott, but later stories were published under a house name, Grant Stockbridge. Most of the Spider novels were written by Norvell Page. Other authors of the Spider novels included Emile C. Tepperman, Wayne Rogers, Prentice Winchell, and Donald C. Cormack. The Spider was published monthly and ran for 118 issues from 1933 to 1943. Now the Spider, was known for his Calling Card. A Red Ink Spider left on the foreheads of the Criminals he Slew. Now another Pulp Hero, Lee Falks Phantom, was known for marking folks with his Skull Ring, but in the case of the Spider, his mark was made with the base of his cigarette lighter, invented by a useful minion....Another thing to keep in mind about the Spider. The Spider, was mean. VERY mean. The Spider, would make Frank Castle quake in his Punisher Under-roos......One could say, while the Shadow would have been the inspiration for many the Caped and Cowled or masked Mystery men to come, the Spider, would have been the first True comic style Anti Hero (Not counting the Westerns, different pulp genre there )..... Still, while the Spider was the Master of Men, could he stand before, the Original Super Man? Contestant 3: Doc Savage Can it POSSIBLY, get more Pulp, then Clark Savage Jr? Physician, surgeon, scientist, adventurer, inventor, explorer, researcher, and, as revealed in The Devil Genghis, a musician? Lester Dent himself described the character as "a mix of Sherlock Holmes' deductive abilities, Tarzan's outstanding physical abilities, Craig Kennedy's scientific education, and Abraham Lincoln's goodness." There is no doubt to me at least, that Doc is the better HERO, of the three (though by modern standards, Doc Savages techniques may violate more then a few human rights and ethics issues). Still, could he BEAT, the Spider? Could he Beat, the Shadow? 181 original novels, scores of add ons, posters, a (so-so but consider when it was made) movie, comics, magazines, Wold Newton, and more? Pretty impressive Resume I would think, and really no need to describe what the Doc can do, since the guy had a Fortress of Solitude, before even the "other" Superman. There are lots of similarities between these three characters. They all fought Crime. They all had, Helpers. But out of the three, who will be the last one standing. I'll with hold my own opinion til a bit later. Debate decor and demeanor if possible. Anyone can root and cheer but the reasoning behind the pick is the fun part. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Re: Celebrity "Pulp" Death Match! I don't think the Spider could stand up to the other two. As for Doc and the Shadow. I would say the odds are slightly in Docs favor as he was more consistently super prepared and Superhuman but the Shadow had lots going for him also. No slam dunk here. Doc would certainly dominate in hand to hand but the Shadow is a master manipulator of circumstance even more than Doc. Doc has lots of basically SF style gadgets that would serve him to balance the Shadow's weird talents. I could see it going either way but as I said give the edge to Doc. They're both giants so the speak. Either one having a bad day would be in trouble. I prefer the stories where they end up as allies myself, maybe against Siwan Khan and John Sunlight united. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted November 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Re: Celebrity "Pulp" Death Match! Ah we'll get to the team up stuff After all the bad guys from the respective list above have yet to duke it out. I certainly agree when it comes to equipment, Doc has it hands down, and you would be nuts, to get into a hand to hand fight with Doc Savage. Still, I wouldn't dismiss the Spider from the mix up. When it comes to dead criminal body count, the guys hard to match, he's just not as well known anymore as the other two. A good thing to consider to, is the respective ways these guys would approach a fight if it had to happen. Doc, inevitably goes hand to hand. The Shadow, employs a mixture of both, and the Spider, usually would have to wade through a room full of gunned down criminals to find someone still breathing, to kick in the ribs. Many things to consider. So far, votes 1 for Doc. Shadow and the Spider 0. Heh, I'd have set it up with a poll, but I wasn't sure how to get the forum set up to do the polls yet. Still, I can keep a tally and I think this way, better explanations arise. Doc Savage: 1 The Shadow: 0 The Spider: 0 ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahuna's bro Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Re: Celebrity "Pulp" Death Match! the good doctor takes this bout Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Re: Celebrity "Pulp" Death Match! Just as an aside: Spider did get some comics treatments: Spider I think I had the first Eclipse issue, but that was when I was starting to drop comics, so no followup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Main Man Posted November 28, 2009 Report Share Posted November 28, 2009 Re: Celebrity "Pulp" Death Match! You should check out the Doc Savage versus Conan the Barbarian thread.It lasted far longer and was far more in depth than I ever would have imagined. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest steamteck Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Re: Celebrity "Pulp" Death Match! My feeling is both the Shadow and Doc have things going for them besides basic detective type stuff and conventional combat efficiency which is why I still think they both edge the Spider out. Both the Shadow and Doc are well known for the last minute secret maneuver to outwit the villain and completely undo him using often bizarre and more than normal resources. Although the Spider vs. the Punisher might be fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Re: Celebrity "Pulp" Death Match! Doc. I deny nothing to either the Shadow, or the Spider, (save that the latter was a clear copy of the former), but neither is as clearly superior in ability as was Doc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AnotherSkip Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Re: Celebrity "Pulp" Death Match! WEll that arguemnt of Deus Ex Machina would weigh in for Spider from my POV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mattingly Posted November 29, 2009 Report Share Posted November 29, 2009 Re: Celebrity "Pulp" Death Match! I think Doc could easily handle the Shadow by virtue of his superior body and mind, but I've got to give the slight edge to the Spider, for fighting as dirty as it takes, and showing no mercy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sketchpad Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Re: Celebrity "Pulp" Death Match! Savage could clean their clocks hands down Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yansuf Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Re: Celebrity "Pulp" Death Match! Savage could clean their clocks hands down Agreed. Even without his aides, Doc is out of the others' class. Spider vs. Shadow, don't forget the Spider has quite a few dice of luck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted November 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Re: Celebrity "Pulp" Death Match! So....if I tally this up correctly, we should have: Doc Savage: 5 The Spider: 2 The Shadow: 0 Few posts didn't pick but it appears that at least one of them Leans Spider as well. Looks like the Shadow is actually Losing out. Then again he is also a lot of folks secondary pick. I suppose, a thing to think about would be their respective cases, and things they have accomplished. Still reserving my pick for another day or so since it's quite detailed, me being a pulp addict and all. It's nice to see though, that there is another couple of folks out there that actually Understand, The Spider. There is a Line, in crime fighting that Doc Savage will not cross (directly, there IS Brain Surgery after all), and that the Shadow Operates Right ON. To The Spider though, lines are something drawn around the body of a dead criminal. To be fair and in their respective elements, I should have offered this up as a point pool. 3 guys, you get the numbers 1, 2, and 3. You place your highest Number on your best pick, total the results. I'll use that format for the next one and NICE idea on a match up between The Spider and The Punisher. May have to build on that one later as well. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ranxerox Posted November 30, 2009 Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Re: Celebrity "Pulp" Death Match! Due to my limited familiarity with these characters I probably shouldn't be voting. I have read a couple of the original Doc Savage stories and saw the movie that came out in the 70s. My knowledge The Shadow is limited to it's movie and the comic book series from the 90s. I have heard of The Spider but that is it. Still, if you can't spout your opinion about something you know next to nothing about on the internet where the heck con you? I'm joining the chorus of votes for Doc Savage to win it. I don't think that The Shadow could cloud Doc's carefully trained mind or bend his iron (bronze?) will, and without his mind tricks to help him Cranston loses to Savage in anything even slightly resembling a fair fight. Nothing in your description of The Spider made me think he had what it takes to beat the Man of Bronze. I mean it not like Doc Savage doesn't have experience fighting vicious and merciless foes. Since you want us to rank our picks, I'm going to go with The Shadow to take The Spider. The man who "knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men" is going to instantly recognize The Spider for the psychopath that he is and will find a way to use his mental unbalance against him. That's my uninformed two cents - adjust for inflation as needed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted November 30, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 30, 2009 Re: Celebrity "Pulp" Death Match! Well thought especially from a limited amount of data to work with. Good picks as well since really, The Shadow's abilities, wouldn't phase Doc to much. Doc's got more Willpower then 99% of the Green Lantern Corp. The Spider's not exactly unbalanced either. He's very Singular and focused. Want the problem to go away, Kill the problem. Update then goes: Doc Savage: 6 The Spider: 2 The Shadow: 0 Looking like the Doc is gonna take it hands down, still you never know. There may be some serious Shadow and Spider aficionado's out there that can shed a little light on the subject. ~Rex Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
starblaze Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 Re: Celebrity "Pulp" Death Match! What was so bad about the Shadow movie? I rather liked it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kahuna's bro Posted December 7, 2009 Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 Re: Celebrity "Pulp" Death Match! as did i i noticed that the movie like the radio series leftout the kent alard id for simplicity but i didnt mind so much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RexMundi Posted December 7, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 7, 2009 Re: Celebrity "Pulp" Death Match! Honestly I didn't find the movie, Non Enjoyable. I thought it could have been MUCH better, but I still find it an entertaining beer and pretzels flick. Still, the New Flick coming out promises to be much truer to the times, and much truer to the subject as well, so, I've got my hopes up. I felt the movie only scratched the surface and then muddled up a few other things but then on the other hand, I still had a good time with it, Just like I had a good time with "The Phantom", and a Good Time with "The Man of Bronze".... However, if someone is going to crank out, a movie for the Shadow, that does for The Shadow what Dark Knight did for Bat-Man, I'll be happy. ~Rex....... Still puts Doc in the lead, will give it another day or so before declaring the winner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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