How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

[mallet]

So in working stuff out for my new campaign set in the Turakian Age, i have been looking "down the road" to see how things might eventually work out for the characters, point wise, damage wise, etc... And I was looking at what it would take to fight a dragon.

 

Now magic using character can eventually get spells that do a heck of a lot of damage and maybe hurt a dragon, but what about fighters?

 

Using Skarm from NNN as an example. He has 24 rPD. Given that a fighter has a STR of 20, even if you gave him the ultimate Dragon killing weapon from the EI book Azganog's Bane which does 6d6 vs Dragons he would still "only" be doing 7d6+1 damage. That means on average he would only be doing 23 to 24 points damage on a hit. Meaning that most of the time he wouldn't be doing any damage at all, or very little.

 

Do you feel this is a bit out of balance, or is it just that Skarm is such a powerful dragon that even such a powerful weapon would have little effect on him?

[mallet]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

Forget this post. I posted it before doing further research.

 

Seems like it is because Skarm is so powerful. "Regular" Dragons seem to have a lot less rPD, so doing 7d6+1 would be doing a lot of damage against them.

[Nevenall]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

Depends on whether you want a campaign more like DnD or more like the Hobbit.

 

There are many options that a character has to add damage: Martial Arts manuevers, the Deadly Blow and Weapon Master talents, Combat Skill Levels, using a Move Through, or Pushing his Strength.

 

Also, an armor piercing weapon would be more effective.

 

But in the end it's really up to the GM as to how easy he wants a powerful dragon to be for one hero to damage.

[Matt Holck]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

there's no reason the stun wouldn't knock the dragon out

ofcourse, stun is much cheaper in 6e

does damage reduct exist in 6e?

[Panpiper]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

does damage reduct exist in 6e?

Yes, and always useful for making really big and dangerous opponents hard to bring down, while still being able to be at least hurt a little bit by attacks characters can manage.

[Mindscape]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

The last time my group fought a dragon without a mage, it was knowledge and cunning that let them bring it down. They had found a recently dead one weeks back and the ranger had made some notes about it for an unrelated reason. When the time came to fight it he remembered where the muscles that controled the wings was and where the source of the breath weapon was. These are what the group struck at, eliminating it's breath weapon and it's ability to fly which made it easier to fight.

 

So I would suggest give them a chance to know about dragons other than "they big lizards that breath fire" and give them some bonuses if they use this knowledge during a fight. Don't make it easy for them to find out about it but it might be something that would allow fighters to strike a real damaging blow against dragons.

 

Hope this helps.

[Matt Holck]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

Well that's your problem right there - you're restricting the Barbarian unnecessarily. Right off' date=' the bat, through [u']axe techniques alone[/u], we've got this:

 

* Drain Running + Leaping (leg attack)

* Drain STR + DEX w/ one arm (arm attack)

* Continuing NND HKA (bleeding wound)

* Stun (blunt side to the head; done with Change Environment now, IIRC)

* AoE, radius or line (charging/sweeping strikes)

* Ranged attacks (throwing the axe)

* Drain HKA (smash claws and teeth)

* Drain Flight (slash wings)

* And many more

 

But that's not all. I'd imagine a legendary barbarian to be rather impressive, giving us:

* Presence Attack (don't underestimate it, it's a giant selective AoE that can take people out of the fight entirely)

* Followers, with their own skills to contribute

* Riot-rousing (could be a Summon)

* Inspiring fury (Aid STR and DEX, maybe; makes his followers into a pretty dangerous force)

 

And if he's at all skilled and resourceful, then we've got:

* Clinging (fast wall climbing, and climbing up onto large monsters)

* Setting traps (entangles or KAs with Trigger)

* Healing (herbalism and first aid)

* Danger sense

* Gathering information, especially in the underworld.

 

And all that's assuming he isn't one of those "hero of destiny" types that always seems to have luck favoring them and able to find just what they need. If he was, we'd probably need a VPP to cover it all.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/76371-Love-for-Non-Casters/page6

 

I don't understand the stunning change environment bit

[ghost-angel]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

Flipping through the Book Of Dragons the average flying lizard has a 20rPD.

 

Pretty tough, but someone going out to kill a big dragon should have magic, skill levels, some martial maneuvers to represent training, a good weapon (or dragon slayer), and team mates.

 

If you're pitting a dragon 1 on 1 vs a guy with a sharp metal stick... the rPD is almost irrelevant.

[Panpiper]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

The Great Dragon

 

It lives in it's mountain cave, venturing out on occasion to catch a cow or a horse. Rumors have it that treasures have been hoarded over the years as it has captured the beasts of burden of merchants and even on occasion carted away a nobleman or a knight stuck between the dragon's talons and their horse. A few have tried to sneak past the great beast to loot that treasure, but none have lived to tell the tale.

 

A group of starting characters could actually hurt this dragon. Hurt it just enough to piss it off. And that would be bad. However a very experienced group, grown in both their power and tactics, could bring this beast down. It does have it's weaknesses that could be exploited.

 

55 Str 45

13 Dex 6

25 Con 15

30 Body 20

13 Int 3

18 Ego 8

40 Pre 30

7 Ocv 20

7 Dcv 20

6 Omcv 9

6 Omdv 9

12 PD 10 18/6PD Resistant

12 ED 10 18/6ED Resistant

4 Spd 20

20 Rec 18

80 End 12

80 Stun 30

Total Stats: 285

 

18 6PD/6ED Resistant Armor

60 75% Damage Reduction Physical Resistant

60 75% Damage Reduction Energy Resistant

30 50% Damage Reduction Mental Resistant

18 -18 Meters Knockback Resistance

7 +7 Meters Reach

2 +1" Running

25 40 Meters Fight, X8 Non-Combat Multiple, Cannot be used in areas without at least a 16 meter clearance -1

8 8 Points of Power Defense

5 5 Points of Flash Defense - Sight

5 Extra Limbs (Wings & Tail)

13 1 Body per Hour Regeneration, Can Regrow Limbs

 

67 "Fire Breath" 3D6 RKA Area Effect Cone

45 "Teeth & Claws" 2D6 HKA; 4D6 with Strength; Zero Endurance

22 "Wing and Tail Buffet": Area Of Effect: 1m Radius +1/4 for up to 60 STR, Zero Endurance on Advantage +1/2

 

Total Combat: 385

 

3 Lightsleep

10 Targeting Sense with Hearing

10 Scent; Tracking Sense, Discriminatory,

5 Nightvision

5 Infared Perception

6 +2 Perception

 

3 Deduction 12-

3 Tactics 12-

3 Tracking 12-

 

Total Skills: 48

 

Grand Total: 718

 

It's armor is not hardened, armor piercing attacks will have greater effect. It does not have defense maneuver, and using good tactics to get behind it, to have multiple attackers can serve a group well. It's flash defense can be overcome and it has no such defense on it's other targeting sense, hearing. It has no mental defense, and while it does have half damage reduction versus mental attacks, a mage with a mental attack will likely be doing more damage than a burly fighter with a great axe. And while it is no slouch in terms of sheer cunning, it can be fooled by illusions and other trickery.

[Matt Holck]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

I'd boast it's OCV in HTH combat on account of size and extra limbs

at the very least let it spread attacks strength attacks using reach

[Panpiper]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

I'd boast it's OCV in HTH combat on account of size and extra limbs

at the very least let it spread attacks strength attacks using reach

It is doing an area effect attack with it's strength, so it is hitting a DCV 3 with an OCV 7. I did think about making the area effect on it's strength larger, but decided that I wanted a player to be able to abort out of the hex attacked. It's breath attack is another larger area effect and hard to avoid. The only attack it would need OCV for is it's HtH KA, which at 4D6 killing, I don't mind having miss. Visually dragons are often seen snapping their mighty jaws at the hero and always just missing. ;-)

 

And of course, anyone is free to make whatever changes they like. This could easily be made much more powerful, or with a little bit of tweaking, even be made a winnable fight for starting heroes. The point for me was to present a dragon that is tremendously fearsome, and yet not utterly impervious to a normal hero.

[Ragnarok]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

In my campaign's latest (and first) dragon kill, I made sure the dragon had a very vulnerable spot where blades and such can sink in pretty deep. Big OCV penalties to hit, but makes the fight a lot easier when the caster is blinding/rooting the thing and the archer is hitting that weak spot.

 

Don't make it glaringly obvious, but if they simply aren't getting it then a subtle GM nudge here and there should do. You should find it on the Draconic hit location table in the Bestiary, I believe.

[Matt Holck]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

67 "Fire Breath" 3D6 RKA Area Effect Cone

45 "Teeth & Claws" 2D6 HKA; 4D6 with Strength; Zero Endurance

22 "Wing and Tail Buffet": Area Of Effect: 1m Radius +1/4 for up to 60 STR, Zero Endurance on Advantage +1/2

 

can all these attacks be made at once?

can full strength be used for both the HKA and 1HAofE at the same time?

[Panpiper]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

can all these attacks be made at once?

can full strength be used for both the HKA and 1HAofE at the same time?

No. Only one of the three could be used at once, depending on the circumstance. Basically, if the dragon can get two or more characters in it's dragon breath cone, it would breathe fire. Otherwise it would buffet for 11D6 attacking a hex it can reach that happens to contain whomever was doing the most damage to the dragon. If the dragon successfully stuns a character, it would then use it's teeth and claws to attack that character directly. When using teeth and claws, the maximum damage is the 4D6KA, the strength does not contribute to any extra damage.

 

The dragon could be built differently so as to permit multiple attacks and attack stacking, but that would make it far more dangerous than it should be if players are to still have a chance of success. The build above is appropriate for an awesomely huge and powerful creature, without making it magically invulnerable. I do not like the idea of 20resistant defense on anything that didn't come from the planet Krypton.

[Matt Holck]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

I'm not big on resistant defense either

 

 

The dragon could be built differently so as to permit multiple attacks and attack stacking, but that would make it far more dangerous than it should be if players are to still have a chance of success.

 

I want to grab the characters in my 4d6 teeth and then breath just so they can't dive for cover

I know I'll take damage for eating my own fire.

 

bah

when the game is 5 players against one GM,

I expect the players to outsmart me

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

No. Only one of the three could be used at once' date=' depending on the circumstance. Basically, if the dragon can get two or more characters in it's dragon breath cone, it would breathe fire. Otherwise it would buffet for 11D6 attacking a hex it can reach that happens to contain whomever was doing the most damage to the dragon. If the dragon successfully stuns a character, it would then use it's teeth and claws to attack that character directly. When using teeth and claws, the maximum damage is the 4D6KA, the strength does not contribute to any extra damage.[/quote']

 

Not that points matter for a creature like this anyway, but as built, it can use all three at once as a Multiple Power (or Combined) attack. A Multipower or a Lockout limitation would prevent this. Most creatures in the Beastiary have multiple attacks (claws and a bite, for example) purchased individually, which can be used simultaneously.

[Panpiper]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

I want to grab the characters in my 4d6 teeth and then breath just so they can't dive for cover I know I'll take damage for eating my own fire.

There is certainly nothing to prevent a dragon from doing a grab maneuvers. And it is perfectly reasonable to stipulate that it is done with the teeth. One might even come up with some 'martial art' maneuvers unique to dragons for just such tricks. However I do not have access to the mechanics on martial maneuver building, so I can't help with that.

 

Not that points matter for a creature like this anyway' date=' but as built, it can use all three at once as a Multiple Power (or Combined) attack. A Multipower or a Lockout limitation would prevent this. Most creatures in the Beastiary have multiple attacks (claws and a bite, for example) purchased individually, which can be used simultaneously.[/quote']

I stand corrected. My lack of awareness of both the forth and fifth edition and newbieness to the sixth is showing. I gamed with the Hero System for twelve years until just at the point that forth edition came out, when I left table top gaming completely. It's just in the last few weeks that I've been getting back into it. As I am working off of PDFs (still waiting on the books) which are not very conducive to 'just reading' my perusal of the sixth edition rules has been quite haphazard. I do not recall 'Combined Attacks' existing 'back in my day'.

 

Hugh is of course absolutely right. Having just now read up on combined attacks, this dragon could indeed do a wing buffet attack (11D6 normal damage, 1 hex area effect), a bite/claw attack (4D6 HtH KA) and breathe fire (3D6 KA Cone area) all at once and do so with a reach of 8 meters. This is a little more offensive power than I had intended in it's original build, and a GM might want to consider limiting it somehow if they want their players to be able to actually defeat this beast. That said, a dragon would have these attacks and if the game permits the use of all of one's powers in the manner written, it stands to reason that a dragon would do so.

 

A dragon is meant to be scary, and here we have just such a beast. Use it as you will.

[megaplayboy]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

Damage negation, not vs. magical weapons, plus 8-10 rPD and half reduction, is probably sufficient to create a beast that could stand off an army but might be vulnerable to a party armed with spells and enchanted weaponry.

[Manic Typist]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

bah

when the game is 5 players against one GM,

I expect the players to outsmart me

 

You control what they see, hear, smell, and anything else they perceive. You control the very nature of reality itself, plus you can hear them planning while they can't hear you plan. Also, you define what "outsmart" means.

 

With that kind of advantage, you can always "beat" them, even if it is 10 or 100 to one.

 

Of course, I also expect my GM to know better than to think it's an issue of "GM against players."

[Matt Holck]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

having to deal with some 500 points of disadvantage written by the players seems to partially determine the universe

 

last I checked, the player's were encouraged to power game

[Panpiper]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

last I checked, the player's were encouraged to power game

See the post I just made on the subject of 'powergaming'.

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/76921-On-the-seeming-dichotomy-between-power-gamers-and-roleplayers?p=1943673#post1943673

[Manic Typist]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

having to deal with some 500 points of disadvantage written by the players seems to partially determine the universe

 

last I checked, the player's were encouraged to power game

 

500 points of Disads written by players? Never heard of it. Unless you mean the Disads of the characters? If so, well... that just makes it easier to "beat" them I suppose...

 

Power game? Last I checked, that's the LAST thing you want to happen and it's in fact discouraged. Perhaps we mean the word in different ways? Powergamers and vindictive GMs are two things I try to avoid in my fun time.

[Matt Holck]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

I'm not trying to best the player.

unless you mean I want them to play their best and not expect me to carry them through the game.

That said the GM should make sure the players know what they are up against.

I'm suggesting that these disadvantages have a direct effect on how the gaming world will play out

that the GM may have final word but never had complete control of the game.

 

 

I'm saying that

A GM does not need to worry about supplying solutions to the problems presented to players.

The players should and will come up with solutions on their own.

I find players prefer their own solutions.

If an opponent is too powerful and can easily defeat the players in direct combat,

the players should work circumstance to overcome that.

After all, they have more minds than the GM to figure something out.

It is not the GMs role to water down challenges or create solutions.

[Fedifensor]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

Well, I like using the classic film Dragonslayer to illustrate the problems with fighters taking on a dragon, even though the hero ends up taking out the dragon in an unconventional way.

 

#1 - Range

To fight the dragon, you have to get into melee range. Dragons can fly and have a ranged attack (breath weapon). If the fighter can't get into range, the fight is over before it begins. The best way to counter range is to pick the location for the fight. If you're fighting in a cave, a dragon can't get airborne (most dragons can't hover or turn on a dime). Another way is to force the dragon to come to you by having something it wants sufficiently for it to risk going to melee range.

 

#2 - Defense

A dragon's attacks are powerful. Many dragons can incinerate entire towns with their breath weapon. The fighter needs a way to survive the ferocity of the dragon's onslaught long enough to strike back. Dragonslayer did this with a shield that could block the dragon's flame, and attacking from above so the dragon couldn't bring its natural weapons to bear. Even then, the hero ended up running (due to #3, below).

 

#3 - Offense

Dragons are hard to hurt. The typical dragon story involves either a weapon powerful enough to wound the dragon, or a weakness in the dragon's armor that can be exploited. The only time I've seen mundane weapons harm a dragon in fantasy fiction were when the hero exploited a weakness (Bard hitting an unarmored spot of Smaug's hide in The Hobbit, or the thief hitting the dragon's eye in Lodoss War).

[Matt Holck]

Re: How do fighters hurt/kill a dragon?

 

one dragon slaying I ran involved a swooping dragon hitting an unbreakable invisible wall of force

damn players