Firearms in fantasy?

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

I used to shoot cap-and-ball firearms, and most of the above advice is good. I would like to point out that the pan on a matchlock gun is covered by a sliding lid. You slide the lid open just before you fire (where you previously put your priming charge). As long as you didn't open the pan while just walking around (a good way to spill your priming charge, BTW) you were perfectly safe carrying your matchlock with a lighted matchcord in the serpentine.

 

Wikipedia entry for Matchlock.

[Panpiper]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Here are some firearms I paid for on a dwarven pirate gunsmith I built a short while ago. Note that these do not reflect 'standard' pistols, but his own invention, paid for with character points. He went a little bit overboard on the sheer power of them, and it takes pretty much a giant's strength to handle them.

 

"Brace of Three Big Bore Flintlock Pistols": (Total: 75 Active Cost, 10 Real Cost)

 

Killing Attack - Ranged 3d6+1, Armor Piercing (+1/4), +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4);

 

Real Weapon (-1/4)

OAF (-1)

4 clips of 3 Charges which Recover every 1 Week, expensive. (Increased Reloading Time: 1 Minute; -2)

Beam (-1/4)

Restrainable (-1/2)

Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (Big Bang, Big Flash, Big Smoke; -1/2)

Limited Range (-1/4)

Extra Time (Delayed Phase, -1/4)

STR Minimum 19 and higher (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1 1/2)

Required Hands One-And-A-Half-Handed (-1/4)

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

One aspect of early firearms that this discussion has overlooked is the shock value of a weapon that spews forth fire and smoke with a loud, thunder-like report, and kills at a(n admittedly small) distance. Perhaps the GM should require a PRE roll every (or perhaps just the first) time the weapon is fired?

 

One should also be mindful of the fact that when using firearms in an enclosed space (or with great accoustics) the roar of the discharge will probably deafenb anyone in the room, or at least those nearby. Likewise, discharging a blackpowder weapon indoors has effects worth considering. While I enjoy the smell of spent gunpowder, that only applies when it's been diluted considerably by the surrounding air. In an enclosed space, the concentration of fumes from repeated discharges would be akin to tear gas.

[Markdoc]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

One aspect of early firearms that this discussion has overlooked is the shock value of a weapon that spews forth fire and smoke with a loud, thunder-like report, and kills at a(n admittedly small) distance. Perhaps the GM should require a PRE roll every (or perhaps just the first) time the weapon is fired?

 

One should also be mindful of the fact that when using firearms in an enclosed space (or with great accoustics) the roar of the discharge will probably deafenb anyone in the room, or at least those nearby. Likewise, discharging a blackpowder weapon indoors has effects worth considering. While I enjoy the smell of spent gunpowder, that only applies when it's been diluted considerably by the surrounding air. In an enclosed space, the concentration of fumes from repeated discharges would be akin to tear gas.

 

The shock effect might have been almost as important as the bullet in the days of early firearms on our world - but I question how much shock value an arquebus would have in a world where overt magic (like say, lightning bolts or fireballs) exists.

 

cheers, Mark

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

The shock effect might have been almost as important as the bullet in the days of early firearms on our world - but I question how much shock value an arquebus would have in a world where overt magic (like say, lightning bolts or fireballs) exists.

 

cheers, Mark

 

I'm inclined to agree, although I can say that even being intimately familiar with firearms, the first time I was downrange from a coordinated barrage of cannon and shot there was a strong urge to grab some turf and get my head down... and that was firing blanks.

 

The smoke aspect I've brought up on other threads before, as Minor(but accumulative) Side Effects... something around a -2 to Sight Perception and Range Modifiers in the adjoining hex, subject to wind and lasting about a turn. Multiple ranks firing in volleys can make a fairly dense smokescreen pretty quickly.

[LordGhee]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

In my Musketeer game starting up I want my player to watch these videos on Matchlock muskets just minutes long

 

 

1 minute - he is wearing the cartridges on his bandoleer

 

 

next

2 min.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2KTS8PQ06Qo&feature=related

 

 

now 37 second of rapid fire the Aqueous 3 rounds rapid from the classic sitting pose.

so Musket with its 2 rds min and long range vs the aqueous faster reload shorter range

 

 

 

 

finally what the other halved fought with on the battle field

 

 

Notice the nice choice of stuff in the first line.

 

and the Japanese firing modern black powder which generates about 1/2 the smoke

 

and last 2 Frenchmen firing early handguns

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sD7DgbxVSkY&feature=related

 

Hope you all like

 

Lord Ghee

 

 

Lord Gee

[Tom Carman]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

I can't recall the title (no doubt someone will come up with it), but I remember a novel in which mages created an alternative that simulated gunpowder. They filled a container with water, magically reinforced it to prevent rupture, then heated it to near-plasma temperatures. Then they used a spell to convert the contents to a powder and cut open the container to remove it. The reversal condition for this transform was to add water to the powder, resulting in lots of live steam.

[assault]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

I can't recall the title (no doubt someone will come up with it)' date=' but I remember a novel in which mages created an alternative that simulated gunpowder. They filled a container with water, magically reinforced it to prevent rupture, then heated it to near-plasma temperatures. Then they used a spell to convert the contents to a powder and cut open the container to remove it. The reversal condition for this transform was to add water to the powder, resulting in lots of live steam.[/quote']

 

The science involved in that is more complex than simply making gunpowder.

 

Geeks should never practice magic. They overcomplicate things.

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

The Dragon Crown War series by Michael A. Stackpole features the introduction of gunpowder to a fantasy setting, with cannons being the first on the scene and hand-held firearms following a generation after. Much quicker than the developments in the real world but might be worth a look anyway.

[Hierax]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

FWIW, Joel Rosenberg's Guardians of the Flame series (The Sleeping Dragon etc.) also has Gunpowder and a magical knockoff of it.

 

Basically, some Fantasy RPG players get sucked into their character's lives but with their own knowledge and one of them is an engineering student who brings gunpowder to the world.

[Panpiper]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

FWIW' date=' Joel Rosenberg's [i']Guardians of the Flame [/i]series (The Sleeping Dragon etc.) also has Gunpowder and a magical knockoff of it.

 

Basically, some Fantasy RPG players get sucked into their character's lives but with their own knowledge and one of them is an engineering student who brings gunpowder to the world.

OT: Man, it would be nice to know 'before' you create your character that you are going to be sucked into that world for real. I dare say that would affect my character conception. ;-)

[Tom Carman]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

The science involved in that is more complex than simply making gunpowder.

 

Geeks should never practice magic. They overcomplicate things.

 

The mages lacked samples of gunpowder, I think, and were reverse-engineering based on the observed effects.

[tkdguy]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

[Alibear]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

I have canons and mortars in my game and even matchlock weapons. Indeed one enterprising young fellow even hit a dragon at point blank range with a ship's 4d6 rka cannon once. Poor lad rolled 11body and 22 stun. Bink.

 

I gave the ferocious beastie an extra d6 presence attack for 'displaying a power' after that.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

FWIW' date=' Joel Rosenberg's [i']Guardians of the Flame [/i]series (The Sleeping Dragon etc.) also has Gunpowder and a magical knockoff of it.

 

Basically, some Fantasy RPG players get sucked into their character's lives but with their own knowledge and one of them is an engineering student who brings gunpowder to the world.

 

I loved that series!

[Vondy]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

I would think poor accuracy at range and long reloading times would be sufficient to keep "ancient" firearms from being over-powering in the hands of player characters. In most scenario's they'll only be useful at fairly close engagement range and players will only be able to get a few shots off before things go hand to hand - rather like the old swashbuckler movies.

[TSandman]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Just having to keep the powder/cartridges dry during weeks of wilderness adventuring/dungeoneering should keep them in check for a while. Also having to keep your gun clean of powder residue more or less often (did they buy that powder keg from CmoT Dibbler? if so, then you have a cummulative -1 penalty because of residue buildup!). If their guns aren't ready before a fight, then it's a non-issue anyway (You're sure you want to load your gun??? those Orcs are comming pretty fast with their swords waiving about...).

 

Great job of being stealthy in a forest too! (Geez, Bob, thanks for advertizing to everyone chasing us around that we're here! You've even shown them where with all this smoke!)

 

Just do not let them have modern bullets/cartridges/smokeless stuff

[Shadowsoul]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

Just having to keep the powder/cartridges dry during weeks of wilderness adventuring/dungeoneering should keep them in check for a while. Also having to keep your gun clean of powder residue more or less often (did they buy that powder keg from CmoT Dibbler? if so, then you have a cummulative -1 penalty because of residue buildup!). If their guns aren't ready before a fight, then it's a non-issue anyway (You're sure you want to load your gun??? those Orcs are comming pretty fast with their swords waiving about...).

 

Great job of being stealthy in a forest too! (Geez, Bob, thanks for advertizing to everyone chasing us around that we're here! You've even shown them where with all this smoke!)

 

Just do not let them have modern bullets/cartridges/smokeless stuff

 

True enough. Then there's the issue of getting the right cartridges, use the wrong ones and they'll drop out or get stuck. And even if you think things are going well there is always the chance of a jam, misfire or minor explosion. And since there is a sharp drop off in lethality you'll have to let the enemy get into arrow range befor eyou have a decent chance of killing or maiming them.

 

Even if you can fire off a shot and reload in reasonable time your problems are only going to mount from there. Dirty or clogged barrels cause more misfires while the clouds of billowing powder smoke that you've created will spoil your aim.

 

I've had a few discussions about the rise of gunpowder weapons and there are two arguments for their success that I find quite compelling.

 

1. When at close enough range a bullet could punch straight through most armour and strike the flesh beneath it with a terrific impact. They were lethal weapons and should be given AP against primitive/non-magical armours.

 

2. It was relatively easy and quick to train a musketeer/arquebusier while a good archer was years in the making.

 

Of course crossbows are an acceptable alternative to early firearms and were generally more reliable.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

True enough. Then there's the issue of getting the right cartridges, use the wrong ones and they'll drop out or get stuck. And even if you think things are going well there is always the chance of a jam, misfire or minor explosion. And since there is a sharp drop off in lethality you'll have to let the enemy get into arrow range befor eyou have a decent chance of killing or maiming them.

 

Even if you can fire off a shot and reload in reasonable time your problems are only going to mount from there. Dirty or clogged barrels cause more misfires while the clouds of billowing powder smoke that you've created will spoil your aim.

 

I've had a few discussions about the rise of gunpowder weapons and there are two arguments for their success that I find quite compelling.

 

1. When at close enough range a bullet could punch straight through most armour and strike the flesh beneath it with a terrific impact. They were lethal weapons and should be given AP against primitive/non-magical armours.

 

2. It was relatively easy and quick to train a musketeer/arquebusier while a good archer was years in the making.

 

Of course crossbows are an acceptable alternative to early firearms and were generally more reliable.

 

This post reminded me of one of my favorite passages from The Annals of The Four Masters, concerning the English loss to the Irish at the Battle of Yellow Ford:

 

"At this time God allowed, and the Lord permitted, that one of the Queen's soldiers, who had exhausted all the powder he had about him, by the great number of shots he had discharged, should go to the nearest barrel of powder to quickly replenish his measure and his pouch; and a spark fell from his match into the powder in the barrel, which exploded aloft overhead into the air, as did every barrel nearest, and also a great gun which they had with them. A great number of the men who were around the powder were blown up in like manner. The surrounding hilly ground was enveloped in a dense, black, gloomy mass of smoke for a considerable part of the day afterwards."

 

Pretty much sealed the English defeat that day.

When I first found that passage while researching the Nine Years War it immediately reminded me of my arquebustier friend Sparky (So nicknamed due to a couple of unfortunate explosions which he survived without major damage, mostly due to luck and good equipment). We dubbed the incident "The Death of Sparky" among my circle of friends from that point onwards.

[Vondy]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

I thought this was supremely cool: an early wheellock revolver.

 

 

The first of these were produced in the 1590's.

 

You had to pre-load each cartridge, and the wheel and lock are done by hand between shots.

 

I'd make turning the wheel and cocking the lock a half phase action, and shooting a half phase action.

 

Pre-loading all the cartridges would probably take a minute (or more).

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

I thought this was supremely cool: an early wheellock revolver.

 

 

Actually that appears to be some kind of snaplock action (probably flintlock, but I'm no expert), but that revolver is a great find, nevertheless, and a beautiful example of the gunsmithing arts.

 

The following is not to be construed as an EXPERT OPINION, only the opinion of someone who once owned and used muzzle-loading firearms and has read a lot about the things he hasn't actually done, related to that subject. If anyone has better information or corrections to the text below, just post them.

 

Accurracy with muskets (or any smoothbore firearm, for that matter) could be rather... iffy. The main reason muskets were fired in volleys was that if you put a whole lot of balls downrange, you were bound to hit something, if only by accident. Usually you were firing your volley into a crowd (row of opposing soldiers) so even if the ball went astray, there was bound to be some poor fool standing in its path.

 

Early rifles were a bugger to load quickly and were significantly more expensive than muskets, so they weren't issued to regular troops until the Industrial Age. The bore of a musket was larger than the ball it shot, both to facilitate loading after it had begun to foul and to speed up the reloading process. If you were hunting with a musket, you'd use a greased patch of cloth to make the ball fit the bore more tightly and thus somewhat increase its accuracy. A rifle bullet was either as large as the bore or slightly larger. This ensured that the ball would engage the rifling grooves. This means that, unlike a musket, you must use a "starter tool" in addition to the ramrod.

 

Black powder leaves a residue in the barrel of a weapon approximately equal to half the amount of powder used. This means that only the first shot with a black powder weapon will be as accurate as you can get, provided you start with a clean bore to begin with. I suggest a -1 cumulative penalty to OCV per shot without cleaning (after the first), and a similarly increasing likelihood of a misfire as powder residue accumulates in the barrel and especially the touch hole. Matchlocks and wheel-locks should have some sort of activation roll (better for wheel-locks than matchlocks, with modifiers for humidity, rain, snow, etc.), while flintlocks, if allowed, should be relatively unaffected by weather as long as it was loaded under dry conditions.

 

If you stored your weapon loaded overnight, the cooler night temperatures would tend to cause condensation in the barrel, and we've all heard about keeping one's powder dry. If you look up the subject online, a lot of folks nowadays leave their black powder weapons loaded overnight without care, but I suspect that modern black powder substitutes (relevant entries at this link) aren't as hydroscopic or corrosive as the real McCoy. I have heard that every morning Wild Bill Hickok discharged, cleaned and reloaded his pistols every morning to keep them at maximum accuracy and reliability. Note: there were only two ways to unload early black powder weapons. The first (and easiest) was to just shoot it. The second involved an auger-like attachment on the end of one's ramrod and a lot of fiddly work.

 

Cleaning: Fortunately, if your character has a supply of water, a pot and a funnel, cleaning your firearm is pretty easy, but the only cleaning solvent available to a fantasy setting are likely to be water (hot water works best). Modern cleaning instructions are listed below, but if any of our friends here are historical reenactors or active hobbyists, they will be able to explain the traditional methods used to keep one's firearm ready to use and safe from corrosion.

 

Typical charges (IME -- YMMV) are ~30-50 grains of powder for a pistol, and 40-100 grains for a rifle. This works out to (only very) approximately 1/16 oz. of powder for a pistol and 1/8 oz. of powder for a rifle. A pound of black powder fills a container (once again, very) approximately the size of a one-quart jar. I suspect powder containers would be made of wood and/or brass, to avoid creating sparks (say, if they were dropped on flagstones or something).

 

Useful, or at least relevant articles:

How to Clean a Black Powder Firearm

 

How To Load a Traditional Muzzleloading Black Powder Rifle

 

Blackpowder to Pyrodex and Beyond

 

Black Powder

 

Arquebus

 

Musket

 

Rifle

 

Matchlock

 

Wheel lock

 

Flintlock

[mayapuppies]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

About how many times can a single flint be used to fire a flintlock musket? Completely average number, I'm pretty sure the number varies widely, but I'm looking for a simple average.

[tarragon]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

About how many times can a single flint be used to fire a flintlock musket?

 

I used to shoot period firearms. Mostly caplock for me, but there were plenty of guys who shot flintlocks. Even over the course of a week long shoot I never saw one of them maintain or replace the flints in anyway or even talk about the need to.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

ok, thanks

[SSgt Baloo]

Re: Firearms in fantasy?

 

About how many times can a single flint be used to fire a flintlock musket? Completely average number' date=' I'm pretty sure the number varies widely, but I'm looking for a simple average.[/quote']

 

ISTR reading somewhere that the flint needed to be knapped every 10 shots or so. Not that it wouldn't work at all, but that ignition could become unreliable unless this was done.

 

From this page (Note the underlined sentence):

The Flint

This is a hard, brittle vitreous stone that can be shaped to a sharp edge. Because it is so hard, it can be struck against steel to create sparks. In use in the flintlock, it is unpredictable. You might be able to get dozens of strikes from the same flint, or you might soon have to replace it. Although the flintlock was more effective than any gun which had preceded it, a major contributory factor to its unreliable operation was the flint. If you are able to closely observe a reenacted battle, you will see musketeers occasionally replacing their flints, exactly as in real combat. They carry a tool to do this that operates like a screwdriver, but doesn't look like its modern counterpart. When you talk to a reenactor, ask to see this tool. You might see different kinds, such as the Pickering tool.

Before the advent of matches (or the Zippo lighter!), flint and steel were the usual means of starting a fire. An eighteenth century workman might carry around with him a tinder box containing a flint, a steel, and tinder. Tinder is carefully-charred linen fibers usually prepared from old worn-out clothing. The tinder-box kept it dry and ready to use. The sparks would ignite the tinder, and the flame produced would ignite a candle (or a fire). The flame in the tinder would be extinguished, and returned to the tinder box for further use.

 

From that remark, I'd give a flintlock weapon a small chance to fail to fire. This will be due any number of causes from a broken flint, to a damp/defective bit of powder, to environmental conditions, or even simply bad luck.