Power Skill with No Power

[Lucius]

So what does a Power Skill get you if your character doesn't have any "Powers" per se?

 

I would imagine the most common case would be "Gadgeteering" so we can start with that if people would like.

 

I'm interested in what Hero players would consider to be legitimate uses of the Power Skill "by itself" so to speak.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Power Skill: Palindromedary

[JaredThaler]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

With Gadgeteering, (or Magic) it would seem to be an excelent justification for aquiring powers in future. Especially if you got your hands on other people's Foci / Spellbooks / Parts.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

Use the 18+ skills are Super to create a Superpower Skill.

[Neverway]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

So what does a Power Skill get you if your character doesn't have any "Powers" per se?

 

I would imagine the most common case would be "Gadgeteering" so we can start with that if people would like.

 

I'm interested in what Hero players would consider to be legitimate uses of the Power Skill "by itself" so to speak.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Power Skill: Palindromedary

 

It would, I think, be a good place to start a newly developed (or developing) power. Depending on the campaign, it could represent someone whose psionic powers have just awoken. Alternately, it could be used for something that accentuates the feel of a character but isn't worth the constructed cost such as a wizard's cantrips (low powered spells that people generally don't want to spend points on, but make your wizard feel more "wizard-y"). Of course, this depends on how the GM allows the skill to be used. I'm assuming a fairly liberal allowance here, treating the Power Skill like a low Active Point VPP with a RSR. Exactly like the rules say you shouldn't.

 

 

Happy Holidays!

[薔薇語]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

Neverway has managed to steel some of my thunder (he must have succeeded in power check: Precog). A power skill, without a specific power, seems best suited to help move the character's progression along. I'm putting the finishing touches on a Martial Artist character right now and I will be buying the Power skill. The Martial Artist doesn't have any powers to speak of, so why buy it? Because I envision him developing some of those cool cinematic powers but don't want him to have them yet. Power allows me and the GM an easy way to bring them out, and have a game mechanic for measuring their effectiveness at the onset.

 

Similarly, Power could be a catch all skill for individuals who could otherwise be required to make a few skill rolls at once: Acrobatics, Break fall, sleight of hand, etc. Buy each skill and then buy a powerskill of DEX to represent a unified skill roll. This is also another thing I will be buying for my martial arts character.

 

La Rose.

[JmOz]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

I have used it for cantrip style magic & Huge spells in the past (Huge spells being the "Found a spell book that can send the demon back if we can only figure out how to use it" type of things)

[dmjalund]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

Maybe the person with the Power Skill can help other people use their powers

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

I consider the Power Skill to be a blank SFXless item - you need to add some Special Effect to it, define it somehow. Just like Blast is a generic nothing until you add some kind of Special Effect.

 

I wouldn't allow a blank Power Skill anymore than I would allow a blank Blast or Flash to a Character.

 

It's a manipulation Skill of some kind. Whether it's acting as Casting a Magic Spell; Gadgeteer; Lighting Manipulation; Psionic Force; Jedi Force Control. Doesn't matter what the SFX are, it just needs one.

[Kristopher]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

Putting Power Skill on a character sheet as-is would be a lot like putting Professional Skill on, with no actual profession listed.

[Lucius]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

I consider the Power Skill to be a blank SFXless item - you need to add some Special Effect to it, define it somehow. Just like Blast is a generic nothing until you add some kind of Special Effect.

 

I wouldn't allow a blank Power Skill anymore than I would allow a blank Blast or Flash to a Character.

 

It's a manipulation Skill of some kind. Whether it's acting as Casting a Magic Spell; Gadgeteer; Lighting Manipulation; Psionic Force; Jedi Force Control. Doesn't matter what the SFX are, it just needs one.

 

 

Putting Power Skill on a character sheet as-is would be a lot like putting Professional Skill on' date=' with no actual profession listed.[/quote']

 

 

I guess I need to be more explicit.

 

It was NEVER my intention to suggest that a player would just write "Power Skill" on the sheet. That's not what I'm talking about.

 

What I AM talking about is something like "Magic" skill without any powers defined as spells or "Gadgeteering" without any powers defined as devices.

 

 

 

Somebody writing down an amorphous generic "Power Skill" with no further definition was so far outside my thinking that I never imagined it myself and certainly didn't expect anyone else to imagine it.

 

 

 

But as long as we're talking about it, what kind of SFX have you seen for Power Skill?

 

How specific should it be? How specific CAN it be? How do broader and narrower applications compare to each other?

 

Could the same game have several levels of specific FX -

 

Power Skill: Gadgeteering AND Power Skill: Powered Armor AND Power Skill: Powered Armor Force Fields?

 

Power Skill: Magic AND Power Skill: Elemental Magic AND Power Skill: Earth Magic AND Power Skill: Stone Magic?

 

Could, or should, the same character have two or more such skills - i.e. a mage having the generic, elemental, earth, and stone skills, all four?

 

 

Similarly, Power could be a catch all skill for individuals who could otherwise be required to make a few skill rolls at once: Acrobatics, Break fall, sleight of hand, etc. Buy each skill and then buy a powerskill of DEX to represent a unified skill roll. This is also another thing I will be buying for my martial arts character.

 

La Rose.

 

I don't think I understand what you're getting at. Please elaborate.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Power Skill: Palindromedary

[ghost-angel]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

OK, I see what you meant.

 

I would say it's a Player stating they want to add that element to the character later on, through growth. Like buying a Latent Psionic Perk or similar, but instead buying the Skill to manipulate and learn.

In those cases I would use it as a way to showcase emerging ability, random manifestations of the abilities in question and similar.

 

Also, I'm working on a way to use spells in a game without Powers at all, I'll have most of the idea written up and am currently just cleaning up explanations in general. But the basics are "buy a skill you can cast the spell" and the spell is just defined as what it does, no power write up behind it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

I like the idea of letting the character achieve minor effects with his Power skill alone. Gadgeteering could create small devices that have minimal game effect, while Magic could generate minor cantrips to similar effect.

[薔薇語]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

I don't think I understand what you're getting at. Please elaborate.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Power Skill: Palindromedary

 

An instance of this in action would be a Martial Artist character who does an amazing cinematic stunt that, if given too much thought, would require a Acrobatics, Breakfall, and contortionist roll. The power skill could be defined as a catch all cinematic acts roll. Power Skill: Cinematic MA maneuvers. I'm basically saying that power could be a simple kind of custom skill roll.

 

Likewise, you could use it to help guide the PC through things that they have never experienced before. The PC that studied as a Shaolin monk, I might allow him a Power Skill (ego): to represent deep meditative training and control over one's body and mind. This could be used as the explanation for future powers / talents coming into being or the mechanism by which I gauge his ability to experience a dream walk if he found himself in a Native American setting.

 

La Rose.

 

This is post 500. I am now a "member" and not a "junior member."

[torchwolf]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

This might not exactly correlate to the OT, but personally I like to use the Power Skill at a low starting value (sometimes with a purchased ability to work with it, sometimes without, depending on concept).

 

This is an example pulled from a character I am currently playing - Astra, a spoiled rich brat accidentally endowed with the power cosmic without really deserving it. She has a very minor understanding of what her powers are capable of, so I built her main ability like this (written up in HD using the 5th Ed Superheroic template):

 

• 62 Cosmic Powers: Variable Power Pool, 50 Base + 12 Control Cost (75 Active Points); Character Has No Choice Regarding How Powers Change (-1/2), Variable Limitations (requires -1/2 worth of limitations; -1/4), Slightly Limited Class of Powers Available (Cosmic, Stellar, Energy-based and Life-force based Powers only; no Mental Powers; -1/4)
  
• NOTE: Most of Astra's potential "cosmic powers" (including offensive Powers) are available only through this VPP, of which she can access but a few, and has trouble shifting it. The Limitations reflect that she can have an intent when trying to shift the Pool, but which Power actually activates is up to the GM. The only power "unlocked" so far is the 10d6 Energy Blast. Under Variable Limitation, this would usually include Activation Roll, Concentrate, Extra Time, Inaccurate, Increased END, Side Effects, Visible (Noisy, +4 PER to notice), and possibly Lockout (for any Enhanced Senses etc.)
  
• slot 1) Cosmic Blast: Energy Blast 10d6 (50 Active Points); Increased Endurance Cost (x2 END; -1/2), Inaccurate 1/2 OCV (-1/4), Visible (+4 vs PER Rolls to notice; -1/4) Real Cost: 25
  
• NOTE: The Cosmic Energy Blast manifests as a silvery-sparkling noisily crackling and flashing energy beam that leaks harmless minor energy bursts like silvery black forking lightning, and spreads irregular clouds of translucent energy motes around the energy beam's path to its target - the whole thing looks quite uncontrolled. This Power is unusually noticeable, giving off crackling energy that flash and echo enough for anyone within blocks to perceive it (it gives off noise about equal in level to a submachine gun firing, and light enough to equal a flashing camera lightbulb - it would probably also play havoc with the lighting settings of any photographs taken, overexposing such). It also causes her to have severe difficulties in hearing anything less than a shout while the Power is activated.
  

To further enforce her lack of control:

 

1 Power Skill: Cosmic Tricks 8-

 

 

This is of course insanely ineffective at the start of the campaign, but it is an investment in her future abilities. As her Power Skill increases, she will actually get to access more abilities, and perhaps once in a while get lucky and manifest exactly the ability she wants.

Another cool thing about this is that the GM can mostly control the VPP and pick from a prepared list of options (not written up here) so the VPP can be tested out in the campaign without unduly unbalancing anything.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

I agree with the "minor useful tricks" ideas, and might also add in "Occasional Power Stunts".

I think a perfect example from fiction is The Grey Mouser. The plays around with magic items, scrolls & grimoires, but seldom actually flat out casts spells (the curse of vengeance he used during his origin story is the only one I can recall that didn't involve some sort of external prop). Speaking of which, another useful reason to have an applicable Power Skill is to be able to use any RSR limited items one stumbles across.

[Lucius]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

Would it be safe to say that these skills are basically Power Skills for their respective SFX?

 

Demolitions

Electronics

Mechanics

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Power Skill Palindromedary

[tesuji]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

Well, to be different...

just because it is in the rulebook doesn't mean you can or should buy it.

 

Power skill is a skill at using a certain set of powers. thats basically it.

 

just because it is a skill on the list that doesn't mean you can/should purchase it any more than COMPUTERS.

 

What would you consider a valid use for COMPUTER skill in a fantasy world where electronics and computers... see?

 

Power skill without the powers is useless.

 

If a PC had a concept that called for such - say a veteran mage who lost his magical aptitude, i would charge him 0 for the power skill. he would retain the various arcane arts skills, basically knowledge skills.

 

If he ever got his magical abilities back he would then pay purchase price for his power skill.

 

much the same way i wont charge an alien pc for AK My home planet (or count it against his everyman skills), unless the campaign is going there.

 

So my answer would be -power skill without the powers costs nothing and does nothing. Skills to represent experience with such matters would be knowledge skills or professional skills.

 

I dont like muddying the waters by mixing the functions of ""action skills" and broader knowledge skills.

 

I wont let someone with good stealth roll stealth to figure out spy stuff, or someone with acrobatics use it for figuring out things about gymnastic tourneys.

 

Power skill is for manipulating a given set of powers, nothing more. IMO.

 

That said, in hero you can gain use of powers without paying for them - the old "pick up a focus and use it once - and if the focus were sufficiently in sfx with the power skill, it could certainly be used for it, but thats not power skill "alone" but rather "temporary gain of powers' along with relevent power skill.

[Armitage]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

The Ultimate Mystic says that GMs could allow Power: Magic to be used to attempt to activate a magic item without actually knowing how it works; -1 to the roll per 10 Active Points in the item.

I imagine that Power: Gadgeteering could be used the same way for technological devices.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

I'm not that keen on 'Power Skill'. I specifically do no like the idea of rolling to do tricks that you cannot repeat without buying them. It just smacks too much of game balance over creative play, whilst, oddly, being a creative play tool. We're probably better off simply removing the safeties and, should we then shoot ourselves in the foot, using the pain and inconvenience to remind ourselves not to be so bloody stupid in the future.

 

As to what a 'naked' Power Skill would be used for, well, you could use it as some sort of knowledge skill, or you could use it to operate a focus or UBO power that requires the use of a Power Skill. They are probably the only actual system uses of such a skill.

 

You could decide that everyone in your campaign has a 10 point VPP they can use if they buy the Power Skill to do so, or you can decide that you get 10 points of power to play with for every point you make the roll by, or that you can make a roll and add the amount you make it by to your DCV for avoiding powers of that type hitting you - but the thing is a Power Skill without a power is pretty much meaningless as far as the system rules go (except as noted above), so if the GM allows it then the GM WILL be making up stuff for it to do.

 

At the end of it all, it is a 3 point skill (well 3+ whatever else you spend on it for levels), so it shouldn't be that useful, or everyone will want one, which further homogenises the game, which is boring.

[Lucius]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

Power skill is a skill at using a certain set of powers. thats basically it.

 

What would you consider a valid use for COMPUTER skill in a fantasy world where electronics and computers... see?

 

Well, for one thing, the name would probably change.

 

I think it's in Fantasy Hero that it's suggested that the name of Bugging could be changed to Eavesdropping and in a low-tech context would be a talent for things like listening unobserved: i.e. for positioning yourself to hear a conversation while going unnoticed or appearing totally innocent (engaged in something else, not paying attention, etc) and for finding or making "listening posts" or "spyholes" (Hide behind this arras in the throne room; drill a small hole right here in this floor to peer into....) maybe even up to something as elaborate as a series of mirrors positioned so as to allow you to see into distant rooms.

 

So Computer Programming could be renamed and repurposed as well. Fantasy often has "programmable" robot like constructs such as zombies and golems. The character may be able to determine how such things are "programmed" - "The wraith will respond to commands in the language he spoke in life, only if you call him by the name he answered to when alive" or "The instructions are written on a scroll or more likely a wax tablet, that must be nearby - if we efface or re-write that we can stop or even control the thing," or even "The commands are written in stone! Even destroying the tablet won't help; even its creator can't stop it now short of destroying it."

 

Cross-genra example:

 

"We know the giant robot is commanded by radio. I know the frequency. My power armor includes High Range Radio with Transmit, and I have Systems Operations with it, Cryptography, and Computer Programming. Can I hack the command signal and take over the robot?"

 

"We know the wizard uses a wax tablet to quickly erase and rewrite his commands. I have a fragment of the golem from when we fought it, to make a sympathetic link. I have Magesight, Analyze Magic, the necessary Languages and Literacies, and (?Computer Programming? whatever we've renamed it.) Can I craft my own Tablet of Command for the golem?"

 

 

The idea can be extended to other magical effects that are persistant without direct control by a caster. Such as, say, a curse. See below.

 

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html

 

Perhaps the skill could be used to modify the effects even if it can't completely dispel the curse. For such a use, perhaps we could rename the skill "Hex Editing."

 

Maybe it would also be useful in the case of a newly created magical item or effect, to "double check" it before the first time it's activated. If that's going to be the main use, we could call it "Spell Checking."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that we're just getting started.

[torchwolf]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

Would it be safe to say that these skills are basically Power Skills for their respective SFX?

 

Demolitions

Electronics

Mechanics

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Power Skill Palindromedary

Depending on how you look at it, any Skill that involves the use of equipment could be said to be Power Skills, but it doesn't end there:

Paramedic may allow a character to, in effect, use Healing without having that Power. Usually, KS or SCI:Medicine (and possibly a few others as well depending on how much detail you go into) as well as PS:Surgeon would be needed to operate on a character, even more resembling Healing. Would it be useful to build all medical equipment as Healing with Foci? Probably not, much the same as tools and equipment are more reasonably designed as bonuses to Skill Rolls.

Holistic Healing (Paramedic) 12-

Herbal Application: +2 to Paramedic, IAF Fragile (naturally occurring common herbs)

 

Demolitions, in the same manner, usually allows you to use Killing Explosions without buying that Power (at least in Heroic campaigns) though the availability of explosives might depend on a Resource Pool or Gadget Pool.

 

Electronics and Mechanics allows you to repair and possibly even modify technology (be they bought as Foci, Vehicles, Computers, or just ordinary modern equipment) without buying Transform or Healing (vs technology).

 

Reasonably, many Skills could be viewed as Power Skills from this viewpoint. Mechanically, they have some of the same application, so discussing this might well generate ideas as well as counteracting possible abuse.

[Sean Waters]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

Would it be safe to say that these skills are basically Power Skills for their respective SFX?

 

Demolitions

Electronics

Mechanics

 

Lucius Alexander

 

Power Skill Palindromedary

 

Yes, so long as you say it very quietly where no one else can hear you and you don't then give the game away by running away giggling.

[dmjalund]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

I have been having thoughts that RSRs that only enhance what the skill can already do should be worth a somewhat larger limitation than RSR that allows you to do something you couldn't do before at all.

[tesuji]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

Well for my money, renaming a skill AND changing what it is defined as doing is not another use for the skill but rather a space saving means by which HERo system core book doesn't need a separate skill list for each genre.

 

i mean, after you change bugging to eavesdropping in name, and change the 'what does this skill do" description/definition what is there from the original skill? the cost scheme? So eavesdropping is as much like bugging as it is like demolitions or persuasion - it has the same cost scheme but all else is different.

 

Similar with changing computers to automatonification.

 

imo

 

or are you saying that for instance a fantasy wizard with automatonification if transported in your game to modern times could roll automatonizationification to write window.net code?

or the fantasy rogue could similarly whip up and use modern surveillance gear?

 

i wouldn't but then again i wouldn't let a guy take power skill solo, barring the case of very common sfx and prevalent items for him to use it on. if he wanted it anyway, i give it for free. When it becomes useful enough to warrant points - he buys/finds powers useful with the skill, he pays for the skill.

 

 

 

 

Well, for one thing, the name would probably change.

 

I think it's in Fantasy Hero that it's suggested that the name of Bugging could be changed to Eavesdropping and in a low-tech context would be a talent for things like listening unobserved: i.e. for positioning yourself to hear a conversation while going unnoticed or appearing totally innocent (engaged in something else, not paying attention, etc) and for finding or making "listening posts" or "spyholes" (Hide behind this arras in the throne room; drill a small hole right here in this floor to peer into....) maybe even up to something as elaborate as a series of mirrors positioned so as to allow you to see into distant rooms.

 

So Computer Programming could be renamed and repurposed as well. Fantasy often has "programmable" robot like constructs such as zombies and golems. The character may be able to determine how such things are "programmed" - "The wraith will respond to commands in the language he spoke in life, only if you call him by the name he answered to when alive" or "The instructions are written on a scroll or more likely a wax tablet, that must be nearby - if we efface or re-write that we can stop or even control the thing," or even "The commands are written in stone! Even destroying the tablet won't help; even its creator can't stop it now short of destroying it."

 

Cross-genra example:

 

"We know the giant robot is commanded by radio. I know the frequency. My power armor includes High Range Radio with Transmit, and I have Systems Operations with it, Cryptography, and Computer Programming. Can I hack the command signal and take over the robot?"

 

"We know the wizard uses a wax tablet to quickly erase and rewrite his commands. I have a fragment of the golem from when we fought it, to make a sympathetic link. I have Magesight, Analyze Magic, the necessary Languages and Literacies, and (?Computer Programming? whatever we've renamed it.) Can I craft my own Tablet of Command for the golem?"

 

 

The idea can be extended to other magical effects that are persistant without direct control by a caster. Such as, say, a curse. See below.

 

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0602.html

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0610.html

 

Perhaps the skill could be used to modify the effects even if it can't completely dispel the curse. For such a use, perhaps we could rename the skill "Hex Editing."

 

Maybe it would also be useful in the case of a newly created magical item or effect, to "double check" it before the first time it's activated. If that's going to be the main use, we could call it "Spell Checking."

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary notes that we're just getting started.

[Sidetrack]

Re: Power Skill with No Power

 

Having never really used Power Skills I'd put myself in Sean's Camp on this one, that being said... I don't see why Brick Tricks, Chi Manipulation or JohnWooism couldn't be used to add some extra flash to a character with extraordinary characteristics or martial arts skills so long as it fits the 'grittyness' of the genre.