6E Characteristics Maximum?

[Thanee]

Is there no such thing as the "Normal Characteristic Maximum" (for Heroic characters) in 6E?

 

The only thing similar to this seems to be the Characteristics Guidelines table, but there seems to be no hard limit, anymore.

 

i.e. can you simply improve Chacteristics above 20 (for STR/DEX/CON/etc.)?

As long as it fits the character and the GM approves, of course.

 

EDIT: Ah, found it... it's an optional rule now.

 

Bye

Thanee

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

It was always an optional rule (err, at least as far as 5E goes) and it was not a hard cap, you could purchase over 20, it just cost double...

[Thanee]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

Yep, that's what I meant. Played 3rd/4th Edition, skipped 5th (mostly because it wasn't really available here and we were playing other games at the time) and now getting back into 6th.

 

Bye

Thanee

[mayapuppies]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

Welcome Back into the fold!

[Thanee]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

Thank you!

 

So far, 6E looks very promising. Definitely some improvements over the older editions I know (i.e. less Disadvantages aka Complications now, Positive/Negative Reputation, Membership Perk, Martial Arts DCs actually being DCs, and not sometimes full and sometimes half DCs, and many more).

 

One thing that surprised me when trying to convert a 3rd/4th edition Fantasy Hero rogue character... to get an effective DEX of 20 (i.e. what it was in the older editions) now costs 80 pts instead of 30 pts. Wow!

 

Bye

Thanee

[mayapuppies]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

In Heroic games you should start seeing an overall decrease in CV's in 6E, which I find to be refreshing. In previous editions the DEX/CV rate of escalation was bordering on superheroic and I'm glad to see it going away (for heroic games).

[Thanee]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

Yep, that seems likely. Also the most common DEX will not be 20, but more like 13 now.

 

Bye

Thanee

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

Whether CV's decline is debatable. If the players stick to their historical CV's, nothing will change. I changed my DEX for a 6e game in Supers, and my character now generally moves last as everyone else kept the old DEX levels (mind you, that includes an MA and a Beast-based Brick - I expected them to be faster). I still kept DEX in the 18 range, which I considered pretty high for the concept - but Supers should be better than the average anyway.

 

CV's? My characters don't rely on getting missed, so DCV is lower than OCV.

[mayapuppies]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

In supers games I don't think we'll see as drastic a reduction (if any). I don't run/play in supers campaigns so I'm really not a solid resource for that. But I do run plenty of fantasy campaigns and I am overjoyed at the mechanics now reinforcing the characteristic levels I tried to establish in my fantasy campaigns.

[Thanee]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

Whether CV's decline is debatable. If the players stick to their historical CV's' date=' nothing will change.[/quote']

 

Well, when trying to convert my Fantasy Hero rogue, something definitely has to change, since a pretty much straight conversion puts me 50 points over the limit (mostly because of the 20 DEX).

 

Bye

Thanee

[ghost-angel]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

Whether CV's decline is debatable. If the players stick to their historical CV's, nothing will change. I changed my DEX for a 6e game in Supers, and my character now generally moves last as everyone else kept the old DEX levels (mind you, that includes an MA and a Beast-based Brick - I expected them to be faster). I still kept DEX in the 18 range, which I considered pretty high for the concept - but Supers should be better than the average anyway.

 

CV's? My characters don't rely on getting missed, so DCV is lower than OCV.

 

Yes, but the statement was made for Heroic Games, and I expect it to be more or less true. Heroic CVs will likely drop slightly.

[Vondy]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

If you want maximas you set them as campaign standards.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

Well' date=' when trying to convert my Fantasy Hero rogue, something definitely has to change, since a pretty much straight conversion puts me 50 points over the limit (mostly because of the 20 DEX). [/quote']

 

Step 1 would be revisiting the cost of DEX. At 2 points each to enhance agility skills and go first in combat, I suggest it is overpriced compared to PRE (enhance a group of skills and allow PRE attacks and resistance) and INT (enhance a group of skills and enhance perception). But I've always felt that Lightning Reflex was vastly overpriced. I also see nothing to suggest skill levels with agility skills are innately more valuable than levels with other skill groups.

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

My group just bumped up the other 5 CHARs to match. It's been working okay, but it did some things to the costs of Striking Appearance and Telekinesis that weren't obvious until we tried using them. Not that that was a problem, since PRE and STR were highly underpriced before. I don't know which skill level price structure is more appropriate. I think that we're officially going with the Agility Level costs for Intellect & Interaction levels, but we haven't made a character using them yet so who knows.

 

PS. I wouldn't mind it if CV levels dropped in supers games as well. I sunk more points than I would have liked to in CSLs.

[Thanee]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

I also see nothing to suggest skill levels with agility skills are innately more valuable than levels with other skill groups.

 

I think it is assumed, that agility skills are usually more useful than other skills in typical games.

 

Bye

Thanee

[lemming]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

I think it is assumed, that agility skills are usually more useful than other skills in typical games.

 

Bye

Thanee

 

That and going first seems to be of a higher value in Steve Long's view. I'd have to go thru characters to run numbers, but I think the attack/defense ratio is higher in his games as it was in my player group.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

One of the options discussed previously in looking at changing how different races tend to different characteristic totals was changing the costs. Obviously the most obvious way to change the costs are to increase or decrease the base cost - so if you make STR cost 1/2 cp then the character will tend to higher STR totals than normal, if you make the cost 2 cp then the character will tend to lower STR totals.

 

You could probably achieve finer definition by associating limitations and advantages based on race - so an elf gets STR x1/2, INT +1, REC +1/2 and CON x3/4 (numbers made up with no real thought for the purposes of example).

 

Without having to impose characteristic maxima or anything else, you immediately get differences in characteristic profiles based entirely on what the GM expects the races to be.

 

Obviously if you want a low STR, low CON, high INT, high REC character then you will probably opt for an elf rather than stick to a human but that means most of the player characters with such a profile will be an elf - exactly what the GM wanted to promote in his/her game....

 

 

Doc

[Killer Shrike]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

In Heroic games you should start seeing an overall decrease in CV's in 6E' date=' which I find to be refreshing. In previous editions the DEX/CV rate of escalation was bordering on superheroic and I'm glad to see it going away (for heroic games).[/quote']

 

We are seeing this play out in the Here There Be Monsters setting (over in the Dark Champions thread and as showcased here

 

Here is the last combat averages posted for the Iconic Pregenerated PCs. The various NPC's thus far are tracking in the same ballpark allowing for powerlevels.

 

Name		OCV	DCV	OMCV	DMCV		Levels					Gear					Maneuvers	Speed	Origin
Father Jacob	3	6	6	6												N		2	Believer
Big T		4	3	3	3		+2 w Bare Knuckle Brawlin							Y		2	Believer
Father Max	3	4	4	5		+2 w Double Barreled Shotgun							N		2	Believer	
Forosati Nik	5	8	3	3		+1 w Nikimenid 									Y		3	Believer	


Nikole Thrace	4	4	2	2		+1 w Retractable Fangs								Y		4	Innatus
Jon Bregg	4	3	3	3		+1 w Hunting Rifle								N		3	Innatus
Jon Bregg Were	4	3	2	2		+2 w Claws									N		3	Innatus
Cyrus Cimmeriad	4	3	3	4		+1 w Heavy Metal Scream								N		3	Innatus
Michaila Bast	3	6	3	3		+3 w Retractable Claws								N		5	Innatus

Clark Dugard	5	5	3	3		+3 w Desert Eagle								Y		3	Professional
Jimmy Chen	5	5	3	3		+1 w Insidious Snake Style							Y		4	Professional
Killroy		5	6	3	3		+2 w Barret 95				Scope +2 w Attached Gun			N		3	Professional
Jack Donaldson	4	4	3	3		+1 Overall									N		2	Professional

Ben Newman	4	6	3	3		+1 w Pistols				Scope +2 w Attached Gun			N		3	Psychic
Sabrina		3	5	3	5		+2 with Glock 20			Scope +2 w Attached Gun			N		3	Psychic
Franken-Doc	3	3	3	3		+1 Overall									N		2	Psychic
Jennifer Hale	2	2	7	7												N		2	Psychic

Master Shuida	3	3	3	3												N		2	Mystic
Karl Bocher	4	4	3	3		+1 Overall; +1 w Grenades		+2 Overall				N		2	Mystic
Joseph Blanc	5	5	3	3												N		3	Mystic
Murgatroyd	4	4	4	4		+1 w Ring of Arcane Blasting, 							N		2	Mystic
						+3 with Arcane Magic (Offensive Use Only)

Joe Mundane	2	2	2	2												N		2	Normal


Average		3.77	4.27	3.27	3.45														2.73	

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

My group just bumped up the other 5 CHARs to match. It's been working okay' date=' but it did some things to the costs of Striking Appearance and Telekinesis that weren't obvious until we tried using them. Not that that was a problem, since PRE and STR were highly underpriced before. I don't know which skill level price structure is more appropriate. I think that we're officially going with the Agility Level costs for Intellect & Interaction levels, but we haven't made a character using them yet so who knows.[/quote']

 

I think skill levels remain overpriced. For 5 points, I get +1d6 PRE attacks, +5 PRE defense and +1 to all Interaction skills. Or I can spend 4 points and get +1 to any one interaction skill at a time. So does that mean +1d6 PRE attack, +5 PRE defense and +1 to an unlimited number of additional interaction skills at one time is only worth 1 point?

 

I've also considered the possibility of bumping the cost of INT and PRE to 2 points each as a potential fix. This could justify a skill level returning to its 5e cost of 5 points, but applying to all appropriate skills at once. If you only want it to apply to one skill at a time, that's more limited, so maybe ccosts 3 points. And you would then pay 5 points for the other benefit of +5 to the stat as well (so +1 to all PER rolls becomes a 5 point cost, as does +5 Lightning Reflexes). Of course, one could argue the proportion of each stat's cost that shouild go to skill levels and the portion that should go to the ancillary effect, but I remain of the view that the cost of +1 with any one (or all of) a broad group of skills should be the same regardless of the types of skills being addressed.

 

I find this problematic for PRE, however. My bias would be to remove PRE defense from PRE and make it a function of EGO. You could then be very impressive, but also easily impressed. This would also motivate players to drop more points into EGO - shouldn't heros be made of sterner stuff than Joe Normal, and thus have greater strength of will - which is EGO. I'd probably leave Ego at 1 point in this model - Ego rolls are less common, there are no EGO skills and PRE defense should cost less than PRE attacks, as is the norm for attacks and defenses.

 

I think it is assumed' date=' that agility skills are usually more useful than other skills in typical games.[/quote']

 

I think the (inappropriate, IMO) decision to cost DEX higher than INT and PRE had already been made by the time skill levels were recosted, and it was hard to support the belief that +5 Lighting Reflexes was worth 6 or 7 points, so the price of Agility skill levels was bumped to compensate. It's a chicken or egg question, really. "Which skills are more useful" depends on the game style more than anything else. Is it more valuable to be able to pick a lock, diagnose a disease or persuade people to come around to your way of thinking? Depends on whether the GM likes to use a lot of locked doors and chests, a lot of illnesses and diseases, or a lot of NPC's whose assistance we need as challenges for the heroes to overcome. The pricing of the skills presupposes that these challenges will be more or less equally encountered.

[Opal]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

I think skill levels remain overpriced. For 5 points' date=' I get +1d6 PRE attacks, +5 PRE defense and +1 to all Interaction skills. Or I can spend 4 points and get +1 to any one interaction skill at a time. So does that mean +1d6 PRE attack, +5 PRE defense and +1 to an unlimited number of additional interaction skills at one time is only worth 1 point? [/quote']I suppose it means that 4 points is the lowest the designer figured he could peg the cost of +1 to interaction skills without causing some sort of problem. What, I'm not sure. Maybe extraordinary Charm rolls to turn people to your cause? ::shrug::

 

In prior editions it was very common - prettymuch the norm, really - for buying a component of something to be less efficient than buying the whole package. But the option was still there, so you could be particularly good at one of those components. So, for instance, your gunfighter could be only at the outter edge of human dexterity for almost all purposes, but well beyond it when it comes to drawing first.

 

It smacks of the 'cost breaks,' that 6th seemed to want to do away with by doing away with figured characteristics and divorcing DEX from CV, and so forth. I suppose, you've just spotted a way in which that trend wasn't taken to it's logical conclusion.

 

I've also considered the possibility of bumping the cost of INT and PRE to 2 points each as a potential fix. This could justify a skill level returning to its 5e cost of 5 points, but applying to all appropriate skills at once. If you only want it to apply to one skill at a time, that's more limited, so maybe ccosts 3 points. And you would then pay 5 points for the other benefit of +5 to the stat as well (so +1 to all PER rolls becomes a 5 point cost, as does +5 Lightning Reflexes).

Perhaps, rather than increasing the cost of INT and PRE, you could simply further break them out? Have 'PRE' that allows you to make PRE attacks, Charisma that enhances interaction skills, and 'Coolness' which resists presence attacks, each as a sepparate stat with thier own cost. INT could simply be broken out into INT and Perception.

 

 

I find this problematic for PRE, however. My bias would be to remove PRE defense from PRE and make it a function of EGO. You could then be very impressive, but also easily impressed.

I've seen this or things very similar done many times, and it seems to work just fine. Of course, then EGO becomes a 'package.'

[Bodkins Odds]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

I've seen this or things very similar done many times, and it seems to work just fine. Of course, then EGO becomes a 'package.'

 

I don't see how it makes EGO a package, especially not when compared to PRE under RAW. EGO resists mental effects, PRE attacks are mental effects; they can make you stop and stare in awe or cower in terror. EGO should defend against them.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 6E Characteristics Maximum?

 

In prior editions it was very common - prettymuch the norm' date=' really - for buying a component of something to be less efficient than buying the whole package. But the option was still there, so you could be particularly good at one of those components. So, for instance, your gunfighter could be only at the outter edge of human dexterity for almost all purposes, but well beyond it when it comes to drawing first.[/quote']

 

I believe the sum of the component parts should be the cost of the whole, at least as much as possible. Otherwise, it's tough to claim points are indicative of value. Why should anyone spend 40 points on +10 levels with interaction skills, rather than spend it on +40 PRE? It seems like +8d6 PRE attacks, +40 PRE defense and +8 to all other interaction skills at the same time is worth more than +2 to a single interaction skill at a time.

 

Perhaps' date=' rather than increasing the cost of INT and PRE, you could simply further break them out? Have 'PRE' that allows you to make PRE attacks, Charisma that enhances interaction skills, and 'Coolness' which resists presence attacks, each as a sepparate stat with thier own cost. INT could simply be broken out into INT and Perception. [/quote']

 

To me, it's the same thing relabelled. If PRE is worth 1 point, the combined cost of +10 PRE, +10 Charisma and +10 Coolness, under your model, should be 10 points. Same for INT and Perception - raising both by 5 points should be worth the same as raising the current INT by 5 points.

 

I've seen this or things very similar done many times' date=' and it seems to work just fine. Of course, then EGO becomes a 'package.'[/quote']

 

STR, INT, PRE and DEX are already packages. CON gives you CON rolls (for all they are used) as well as resistance to being Stunned. Comeliness only gave you one thing - no package - so it's no longer a characteristic.