Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

[Kem]

HERO is a game I am not familiar with, but am curious about.

 

As far as RPGs that sometimes get lumped in with HERO, I have mucked around with Mutants & Masterminds, and read some GURPS. Mostly, I have played other styles of RPG.

 

If I were to pick up a book or two, where should I start, and what will they do for me? What are the strongest points of HERO, particularly in its 6th edition form, and especially in comparison to other games out there?

 

Crucially, how difficult is it to grasp and nimbly utilise, for your "average player"? Or, in my case, your "average GM"? On that note, can it be fast-paced, and is it likely to be? I have heard many an offhand comment about its complexity, even its unfriendliness, but then, I also hear that about games I have no issues with, so...

 

As far as genre books and other supplements go, what are their collective defining characteristics, again especially in comparison to equivalent books written for other systems? And better, worse or equal aside, what style or attitude do they tend to possess or suggest?

 

So yes, I have a few questions! Hopefully this is the right area, and not the wrong way to go about things.

[ghost-angel]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

To start you will either need the Basic Rules or the 2 Volume Full Rules. The only difference is the Basic Rules removes almost all the Optional Rules, and several of the more complex (or seemingly complex) aspects and reduces the System down as much as possible.

 

Hero is not a "open the book, make a character and start playing" System. It's a set of rules you use to create a Game. Almost all the work is completely up front before you ever get around to rolling dice and playing a game.

 

The immense amount of freedom provided by the open ended nature of the rules allows for a wide variety of options you can use to tailor the system to your style.

 

You can run fast paced games (most of my Cyberpunk Hero games ran very quickly with combats being over in 30-45 minutes or less, even involving a dozen or more combatants total). You can easily get lost in all the choices of the system, and just as easily find that you have all the tools you need to play exactly how you want to.

 

Genre books in Hero as very good at showing you how you can modify, restrict, adjust, spindle, and mutilate the rules to create atmosphere and style. They come highly recommended - even if you don't play Hero they often have great advice on just how to roleplay out, or provide ambiance for, a specific genre or sub-genre. They are some really good tools for any GM.

 

There is no one Hero Style or Hero Attitude, it is very open. No two games can ever be exactly the same. You may find that one optional or house rule that works extremely well for one game may be very detrimental to the next.

[Nolgroth]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

I would start with the Basic Rulebook. It's cheap. If you decide you don't like HERO, it is just a little cash out of your pocket.

 

*Looks around at the HEROphiles glaring at him.*

 

Hey it happens.

 

Anyway, the Basic Rulebook is the way to do it. EVERYTHING in there is 100% HERO. There are some pretty cool things missing, but most of the Skills, Perks, Talents, Powers, et. al. are in there. You can run an entire campaign just from the Basic Rulebook. But, as I have said before, you will reach a point where you realize there are some gaps. These will come up when you say things like "Gee I wish I could...." or "Why is "x" covered in the rules?" Chances are, the rule you are looking for is in the full HERO 6E Rulebooks.

 

Welcome to the HERO Boards. The land of 100 answers for every question.

[Rapier]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

Hello and welcome! Pull up a chair, put your feet up and make yourself at home!

 

As they've already stated, the two main books (6E Volumes 1 and 2) are going to be absolutely vital. You can't get very far without them.

 

Volume 1 (eg 6E1, in the vernacular) contains all the nitty gritty stuff you need to create characters. Volume 2 (eg 6E2, naturally) contains all the bits about combat and adventuring.

 

Hero is a bit complex during character creation. It is not, as GA said, something you can just sit down and drop a couple of dice on and call it a character. However, once you have your character built the hard part is over and you just have to get used to the gaming conventions in Hero, how dice rolls work, the combat system and other bits. So if we can ignore character creation, for now, Hero is no harder to learn than any other system. In fact, I would wager (and I will admit a teensy bias) that Hero (since it's been around for 20+ years) is a little easier to learn because it's a more homogeneous and playtested game than you might find from some of the newer crop of games.

 

So I keep saying that CharGen is a pain. No, I shouldn't say a pain. It can be complex. But you can't very well play a game without characters so now what? Well among other things you start out and build some simple characters. Regardless of what your eventual genre might be it might be easiest to start with plain old normal superheroes or maybe super spies. We can even help you create these characters or hand you a stack of them ready to go. Most of us that GM have a stack of a couple hundred NPC characters we've used over the years.

 

To that end, both Surbrook and Killer Shrike have a veritable metric ass-load of stuff on their websites. I am too lazy and unmotivated to do a website, so take a wander through their stuff (http://surbrook.devermore.net/index/index.html and http://www.killershrike.com/). I can very highly recommend both.

 

Now, and I can hear the peanut gallery groaning because they know what is coming. There is a hunk of software we are extremely fortunate to have. It's called Hero Designer and it is a wonderfully, awesomely, incredibly, "if I was shipwrecked on a desert island what single piece of software would I want with me" kind of joy. It is programmed 'in house' and built exactly (unless a bug is found, and then those are corrected VERY fast) to conform to the rulebook. Hero is a bit math heavy and in the past it might take me an hour or hour-and-a-half to build a character. Now I can burn through it in about 15 minutes. HD (that's Hero Designer, in case you didn't realise) does all the math and is smart enough that if you are building a melee attack, it removes the options for Ranged attacks. So it is very easy to build characters.

 

As if all that wasn't enough, when you buy HD you are actually buying an HD-Package. You get the software, a 2 year (iirc) maintenance contract (so you get free updates) and you get access to The Vault which contains characters, powers, vehicles and all sorts of good stuff that we have built and uploaded.

 

So, if you want to get started you will need 6E1, 6E2 and HD.

 

Once you've got those basics you can pick up a couple of genre books and campaign books (if you desire). The fortunate thing for you is that since 6E just came out a lot of places are beginning to SALE their 5th edition stuff (which is very easily convertible).

 

Again, welcome. We can be a little high strung (ok, *I* can be a little high strung) but we're a nice (and helpful) group of people. So ask us your questions and we'll get you some answers!

 

EDIT: I always forget the Basic Rulebook. It's $20. That would be enough to get your started (in lieu of 6E1 and 6E2), but you will still need HD!

 

EDIT EDIT: Have I mentioned that I'm fond of HD?

[Nolgroth]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

I will second HD. It comes default with the option to strictly enforce the rules (Modifier Intelligence). Once you are comfortable enough with the rules to deliberately break them for your campaign, you can turn off Modifier Intelligence to make HD work for you. It still tells you that some things are not recommended, but it doesn't explicitly stop you from doing them. That's mostly more advanced stuff. For now, just consider HD the second thing you should buy after the rules.

[Lucius]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

First of all, you're asking in the right forum.

 

HERO is a game I am not familiar with, but am curious about.

 

As far as RPGs that sometimes get lumped in with HERO, I have mucked around with Mutants & Masterminds, and read some GURPS. Mostly, I have played other styles of RPG.

 

If I were to pick up a book or two, where should I start, and what will they do for me?

 

You'll need either the Basic Rules that have been referenced (which I'm not personally familiar with but I'm sure it's "what it says on the tin") or the two volumes of the full rules, which are Character Creation and Combat and Adventuring.

 

You will probably find the Creation rules the most complex and challenging, although you will probably note some similarity to GURPS.

 

That's all you need to play, and without one or the other of the first two, you can't play.

 

What are the strongest points of HERO, particularly in its 6th edition form, and especially in comparison to other games out there?

 

Having recently played some 4th Edition D&D, I am inclined to say that, rumors to the contrary, Hero is not necessarily more complex than other games.

 

But I think it does have a very different approach. Almost nothing is done "for" you.

For instance: Most RPGs include combat at some point or other. D&D automatically ensures the "survivability" of player characters. It would be literally impossible for example to have a character with many powerful spells, or skills enough to qualify as a master thief, but have only a handful of hitpoints and the same to-hit chance as a zero level character. In Hero, it's possible to create such a character. Because you can create any character you want, you can end up creating things you find out you didn't really want after all.

 

On the other hand, I don't think any other system is as good at giving you exactly what you want, if you are willing to create it.

 

Crucially, how difficult is it to grasp and nimbly utilise, for your "average player"? Or, in my case, your "average GM"?

 

Some people find the initial learning curve a bit steep, but I have known people to become proficient with the rules surprisingly quickly.

 

It might actually be easier on you than on the players. You'll find people on this board who always make the characters for their players, according to the player's stated desires, because the players can't, don't want to, or just haven't learned to navigate character generation. Some people even prefer this because it means the player can't surprise them with some ability they didn't plan for or see all the implications of when they reviewed the character sheet...

 

On that note, can it be fast-paced, and is it likely to be? I have heard many an offhand comment about its complexity, even its unfriendliness, but then, I also hear that about games I have no issues with, so...

 

The real complexity is up front in character creation, but sometimes players dither over options in combat too. If a martial artist has a half dozen moves to choose from, or a character has several powers or certain kinds of powers - like what we call a "Multipower" where he may have a tactical choice from phase to phase of how much energy to put into his Force Field and how much into his Disruption Rays - the player can take a minute to decide what the character presumably must decide in a split second. That's not different from any other game, though, except that in Hero maybe every character has a few more options in combat, and you're more likely to have characters with "extra" options bought during character creation; even that may not be true anymore, as I get the impression that even D&D is giving players a lot more tactical choices than used to be the case.

 

In Hero, combat and other time-sensitive events are regulated by the Speed Chart. Every character has a characteristic called "SPD" that determines how often that character acts in a 12 second turn. Base Human SPD is 2. Try to keep the SPD of the players within a close range of each other; if one character has SPD 3 and another has SPD 6, the player with SPD 3 may start asking if his character is even in the game.

 

How fast-paced the game is depends on which optional rules you use or leave out, too. For example, using hit locations adds one more die roll to each hit - but can also end a fight quickly if someone takes a shot to the head.

 

 

As far as genre books and other supplements go, what are their collective defining characteristics, again especially in comparison to equivalent books written for other systems? And better, worse or equal aside, what style or attitude do they tend to possess or suggest?

 

So yes, I have a few questions! Hopefully this is the right area, and not the wrong way to go about things.

 

ARE there equivalent books for other systems? Other than GURPS, I'm not aware of any - but that could be my parochialism, as I am admittedly not well-informed on other systems than Hero.

 

In the genre books, like Fantasy Hero, you'll find the attitude still very much "do it yourself." There would be advice on how to run a fantasy game (much of it applicable with any system) and ways to run different kinds of fantasy and things to take into account when designing a magic system, etc. A genre book suggests questions to ask.

 

In the setting books like Turakian Age or Valdorian Age, you will find more work done for you - magic systems and sample spells written up, specific fantastic creatures and races, items of power, a world with some history and geography fleshed out. A setting book answers some of the questions a genre book asks.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

House of the Palindromedary

[Kaimont]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

Well, I only got the 6th Edition Basic Rulebook a few weeks ago, and I've been getting into the system pretty well, I think. I ran a basic combat about a week ago that went awkwardly slow. It involved a lot of "what do I need to roll to see if I hit you?" and "How does this power work again?" types of questions, and it took a while because both characters had pretty good defenses, so they were just chipping away a little damage whenever they'd hit. Oh, and I didn't know that his BODY-Draining claws should only deal half damage. (Thanks, TorchWolf!)

 

That said, the first time I ran any combat in any system wasn't really elegant. It's one of those things that doesn't go so well at first, but after a while, you learn the new system, and it goes far more smoothly. I expect HERO to be that way as well. I'd say the most bothersome things about combat in HERO are the SPD system, which allows certain characters to act more often than others, which takes some adjusting to, and the option to abort into a defensive action, which I've never actually tried yet, because it looks confusing.

 

Also, as far as Hero Designer goes, I haven't tried it yet. So far, all I've got are the Basic Rulebook and a spreadsheet I created to calculate Power costs. Thanks to the Advantage and Limitation cost tables in the BR, even the spreadsheet isn't that important, although it can be helpful to have a calculator handy.

[Susano]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

To that end' date=' both Surbrook and Killer Shrike have a veritable metric ass-load of stuff on their websites. I am too lazy and unmotivated to do a website, so take a wander through their stuff (http://surbrook.devermore.net/index/index.html and http://www.killershrike.com/). I can very highly recommend both.[/quote']

 

You could send anything you've done to me, and I'll be glad to host it.

Now, and I can hear the peanut gallery groaning because they know what is coming. There is a hunk of software we are extremely fortunate to have. It's called Hero Designer and it is a wonderfully, awesomely, incredibly, "if I was shipwrecked on a desert island what single piece of software would I want with me" kind of joy. It is programmed 'in house' and built exactly (unless a bug is found, and then those are corrected VERY fast) to conform to the rulebook. Hero is a bit math heavy and in the past it might take me an hour or hour-and-a-half to build a character. Now I can burn through it in about 15 minutes. HD (that's Hero Designer, in case you didn't realise) does all the math and is smart enough that if you are building a melee attack, it removes the options for Ranged attacks. So it is very easy to build characters.

 

I'll second (third, whatever) Hero Designer. Also, I try to have an HD file anything I've personally done on my website.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

There is both http://www.killershrike.com and http://www.killershrike.info

 

The first is the main site, the second is a wiki where people can collaborate on or post their own material. The main focus of it is a generic fantasy setting called the World of Generica which is an umbrella for things like the Realm of Esoterica and the Realm of Barbarica, but its open for whatever.

[Kem]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

It is good to see that the reputation of these boards is deserved. Thanks for the expert tips.

 

Also, it was very interesting to hear about your experiences, Kaimont. Thank you.

 

I... would rather not have to use character creation software though. Am I therefore going to be in trouble, if I plonk down the money on the core books, and set about learning the system "by hand" as it were? Other games and forums have taught me that looking at others' builds is highly instructive, so I would be planning to do that. And, as you can probably tell, asking questions is second nature for me.

 

Is it common for Hero Designer not to be used? Follow-up: Is there some kind of quick reference (hard copy) that could substitute, to an effective degree? These, I am accustomed to using.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

I did characters by hand for many years, back in the 4e days. I also used earlier versions of character design software such as Hero Maker and Hero Creator. For most games I prefer to do it by hand, but HERO does require more tracking than most games.

 

However, Hero Designer is probably the best character designer software I've ever used by far, and is very powerful. Once you get used to it's U/I and quirks it will make you far more efficient at character design. I wouldn't be able to churn out the volume of characters I do without it. It saves me a tremendous amount of time and management, does the math, and enforces a lot of the rules of the system for me, freeing me to concentrate on the characters themselves. Most significantly, the powerful export options also allow me to publish the character sheets directly to my web site and provide sharp looking character sheets for players. Its a win / win scenario really and quite a bargain.

[Susano]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

I did characters by hand for many years, back in the 4e days. I also used earlier versions of character design software such as Hero Maker and Hero Creator. For most games I prefer to do it by hand, but HERO does require more tracking than most games.

 

However, Hero Designer is probably the best character designer software I've ever used by far, and is very powerful. Once you get used to it's U/I and quirks it will make you far more efficient at character design. I wouldn't be able to churn out the volume of characters I do without it. It saves me a tremendous amount of time and management, does the math, and enforces a lot of the rules of the system for me, freeing me to concentrate on the characters themselves. Most significantly, the powerful export options also allow me to publish the character sheets directly to my web site and provide sharp looking character sheets for players. Its a win / win scenario really and quite a bargain.

 

Let me say simply... "Ditto for me." HD is also very useful for building masses of powers, equipment, vehicles and so on. And once you collect various HD characters and template packs, you can slap together all sorts of designs in minutes.

[Lucius]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

Steamteck claims that Hero Designer slows him down.

 

I resisted getting it for a long time, so I can tell you that if for some reason you really don't want it, you don't have to have it.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

And lots of people get along fine without a palindromedary

[ghost-angel]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

Hero Designer is good, very useful. I've got a love/hate relationship with it currently. It is a By The Book Rules Enforcement Tool... and you know, sometimes the book just isn't doing it right.

 

In Hero, the book can be wrong. So, if you don't want to use it then don't. It's certainly got the upsides: does all the adding for you (and by far the most tedious part of Hero is adding up a character sheet to see if you came in at the GMs requested point total); and there's definitely something to be said for seeing a list of options versus going through the book to see that there's this or that Modifier hanging around.

 

Personally, I think you're find going by hand for now, and getting the software when you're done with that and need creation to be a bit faster (and it usually does, usually. sometimes having Hero Designer letting you see every option slows you down as you just kind of glaze over going 'wow....').

[lemming]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

Going by hand is fine. I tend to write up stuff and then later on I'll put it into Hero Designer to check the math.

[Marcus Impudite]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

I recommend you purchase a copy of 5th Edition Revised if you can find one, that's what I use.

[torchwolf]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

Follow-up: Is there some kind of quick reference (hard copy) that could substitute' date=' to an effective degree? These, I [i']am[/i] accustomed to using.

The math inherent in the system amounts to

 

1) calculating Characteristics Rolls and Skill rolls - base for those are 9 + (Characteristic / 5).

There are reference charts if you don't feel like calculating these by hand, both in the Basic Rulebook and the full two-volume 6th Edition.

 

2) multiplying by 1 + Advantage value (a number x1/4). There are quick-find value table for this too.

 

3) dividing by 1 + Limitation value (a number x 1/4). There are quick-find value tables for this too.

 

You should have no problem using the charts, a calculator or just paper and pen, to do this.

Oh, and only one decimal is normally counted in case it ever comes up.

 

 

That said, the talk about Hero Designer is just that it's very handy, places everything a click away, obeys the rules in the book (unless you tell it not to), and while not necessary for Hero, it is nice to have everything in one place to print out as needed. It's also very well written and almost never crashes, hangs or do strange things - anything else on your computer is likely to cause you more trouble than HD.

 

Oh and it supports both 5th Edition and 6th Edition Hero System rules.

[Rapier]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

HD is not necessary. I (and most of us) created our characters with calculator and paper-n-pencil for a loooong time. I did it for about 15 years. It is possible.

 

There are even a number of spreadsheet substitutes you can use. I programmed my graphing calculator to tabulate the characteristic costs for characters. There are other options.

 

The Power Cost Charts are all right, but rather limited in value. If you happen to have nice even round numbers they work out ok, but starting getting non-divisible-by-5 numbers and they aren't a whole lot of use other than ballparks and since you are trying to balance a character and account for every point, ballparking just doesn't cut it.

 

If you are not going to use HD, I would suggest using on of the spreadsheets lying around (I think there is at least one in the Free Stuff section). It's not that the math is hard or difficult it just takes time.

[Steve Long]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

Genre books in Hero as very good at showing you how you can modify, restrict, adjust, spindle, and mutilate the rules to create atmosphere and style.

 

We particularly enjoy spindling the rules. I have a rule-spindling machine in the spare room for just such a purpose.

[Steve Long]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

We can even help you create these characters or hand you a stack of them ready to go. Most of us that GM have a stack of a couple hundred NPC characters we've used over the years.

 

To that end, both Surbrook and Killer Shrike have a veritable metric ass-load of stuff on their websites. I am too lazy and unmotivated to do a website, so take a wander through their stuff (http://surbrook.devermore.net/index/index.html and http://www.killershrike.com/). I can very highly recommend both.

 

 

I feel obliged to point out that we are, y'know, a publisher and have produced literally thousands of pages of HERO System material for gamers , much of it specifically arranged and formatted to make it easy for anyone, even those not familiar with the system, to use.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

I would advise that you hold off on buying Hero Designer. I am not saying that it is a bad thing - I find it a very useful thing for all the reasons above. What I have found though is that newcomers to the system tend to dive into the software and get characters that use options that they do not understand or that work in ways they did not expect because they did not understand the rules that HD was implenting.

 

I would advise some time, putting in the effort in understanding the rules. Once you have a grasp of those in your head then HD facilitates you using those to create characters.

 

I would advise that you do not give the books to your players at the get go. get a handle on the things that you want to include in your game and build the characters yourself until you feel proficient at it. For example - your first characters might all have the same SPD - that way there is no need to consult the SPD chart - everyone goes four times a turn and act in DEX order.

 

You might want to keep things to basic kinds of powers etc that you slowly develop and make more complex as both you and your players become more familiar with the rules, encourage vanilla superheroes - basic energy blaster, basic brick etc - to begin with then allow redesigns that make use of more 'advanced' rules like No Normal Defence and Megascale and multiply advantaged and limited powers. You might even want to restrict or simply not use power frameworks at the beginning. Some people might advise you to ignore point totals at the start until you become more proficient in design - just get the power levels right by 'feel' and play-testing the options.

 

My own peccadillo is that you make your own character sheet. In play, HERO is as simple or simpler than many other RPGs. If you give your players sheets full of numbers, they will want to understand them all. As such, I look to reduce the numbers present on the character sheets to the minimum needed to play the game (STUN, END, CV etc). I also look to add as much descriptive text to powers and remove the actual game terms and advantages and limitations - that means the sheet is explaining what the power is, what it does and providing only the necessary game numbers.

 

If your players can interpret the text and numbers at a glance then they will be happier playing the game and will, soon enough, begin asking you for the advanced options rather than moaning about how difficult it all is.

 

Doc

[tarragon]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

Surprisingly, to me anyway, no one has mentioned Narf's wonderful 2 page intro to HERO. http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/77944-Hero-In-Two-Pages-Complete?p=1967242

 

As others have said all of Hero's complexity is up front. Once the GM has the world the way they want it and the characters are built the play is actually quite simple and can be very fast. Narf's document works well as a handout for players and covers everything you need to know to play.

 

Edited: Yes I edited this 12 years (!!!) later.  Wha can I say, I was looking for this again. 

[Rapier]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

I feel obliged to point out that we are' date=' y'know, a publisher and have produced literally thousands of pages of [i']HERO System[/i] material for gamers , much of it specifically arranged and formatted to make it easy for anyone, even those not familiar with the system, to use.

 

Well, there IS that.

[casualplayer]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

There is even a section here on the forums, HERO Games Rules Questions, where you can ask for a clarification on a rule or an interaction of rules and the Big Guy himself, Mr. Long, will get back to you faster than you imagined possible. Then you can take his ruling, cut-paste it over to HERO Games Discussions and we'll argue it for 20 pages!

[Rapier]

Re: Unsure how, why, where... or _whether_ to start!

 

There is even a section here on the forums' date=' HERO Games Rules Questions, where you can ask for a clarification on a rule or an interaction of rules and the Big Guy himself, Mr. Long, will get back to you faster than you imagined possible. Then you can take his ruling, cut-paste it over to HERO Games Discussions and we'll argue it for 20 pages![/quote']

 

20 pages? Only if it's completely inconsequential.