4th-6th VPP Question

[Winterlord]

I am not new to Hero, but have not had a chance to play in many, many years.

 

I am playing 4th, but if a 6e book is has a better rule, it becomes a 4th house (my group is cheap).

 

I never bought 5e because I had no-one to game with.

 

I did buy 6e. The thing is I, I also have an copy of "Gadgets and Gear," and now I am lost. It was for 5th, I think.

 

I thought you could not include any mp, ep or vpp in any combo. Ep is gone, I see.

4e says "A Power Framework can never be bought

through another Power Framework. For example,

a character cannot create a Multipower with his

Variable Power Pool, or have a VPP as a slot in a

Multipower."

 

I Know the act cost cannot exceed the Control Pool. All those rules.

 

I mainly ask because (GaG) it seems so friendly to a gadgeteer.

 

From GaG

"Gadgets And Gear is particularly helpful for

characters trying to construct Power Frameworks

involving gadgetry. Between the various gadgets

and their options, a character can choose a suite of,

say, weapons or utility gadgets with just a few minutes’

work. Where possible and advisable, gadgets

are built in the 40-75 point range, to make it easy

to create Multipowers without having to alter point

totals too much."

 

Here is where I get lost...

"Players with characters who have Gadget

Pool VPPs may find this book particularly helpful.

Rather than having to build a new gadget using

the HERO System rules every time, they can simply

choose the device they want out of Gadgets And

Gear and proceed without interrupting the game."

 

Would one of you be so nice as to tell me the obvious, "You missed 5e". But, be nicer to help.

I really do own books, not a pirate, so a pg reference is perfect.

 

So, most objects in that book use an mp frame. A flashlight is cheap. But I can only buy a flashlight laser as separate objects.

[Nevenall]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

Are you asking if 6th Edition allows characters to buy one Power Framework inside of another? Because if that's the question it does Not and neither did 5th Ed.

[Derek Hiemforth]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

The builds in G&G assume you're making the gadgets to stand alone... not necessarily to put them in a Variable Power Pool. So yes, many of them are built as Multipowers, and you technically cannot place a Multipower inside a Variable Power Pool. That's never changed.

 

For the rules as written, I'd suggest making your VPP take take only a 0 Phase to change. Then you can put the powers of the gadget easily one at a time, even if they're built as a MP in G&G. For example, rather than putting a Flashlight Laser build (as a MP) in your VPP (which would be illegal), you could instead say "On Phase 3, I'm using the VPP for Images (the Flashlight Laser build for providing light). On Phase 5, I'm using the VPP for RKA (the Flashlight Laser build for its laser), etc." In other words, use the individual slots from the gadgets in G&G as your VPP powers (instead of the entire MP builds), and only have a given slot's Power in your VPP when you're actually using that slot.

 

Now. Having said all that, were *I* your GM, I would be inclined to allow you to put MPs in your VPP as a house rule, subject to GM oversight. For example, I would probably only allow pre-defined gadgets to be used this way, such as ones taken from G&G. Also, I would probably only allow it for reasonably innocuous items, not MPs full of attacks, etc.

[dmjalund]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

You could have a limitation on your VPP so that items that would be defineable as a Multipower can be changed as a zero phase action, but otherwise take longer. so you could change your FLASH into an RKA vs ED(laser) in no time, but you need a workshop to turn it into a forcefield

[torchwolf]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

Now. Having said all that' date=' were *I* your GM, I would be inclined to allow you to put MPs in your VPP as a house rule, subject to GM oversight. For example, I would probably only allow pre-defined gadgets to be used this way, such as ones taken from G&G. Also, I would probably only allow it for reasonably innocuous items, not MPs full of attacks, etc.[/quote']

Ditto this.

An optional quick'n'dirty solution, if you want to use some gadgets straight from the book occasionally, would be to allow it but use a house rule for how much of the VPP Pool the MP takes up:

 

MP Pool Cost x number of slots.

 

That is usually roughly how much real points / total cost the slots would take up if added separately (not always though, in which case you might consider just putting the slots in the VPP separately).

[Winterlord]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

I have many limitations on my vpp. Need to go back to a lab, need to justify it with a skill (and an explanation), every item is designated as a common, uncommon rare or very rare object (which determines how long I am out points if a gadget is taken from me). My gm really does not care about this much; I am not trying to powergame.

 

I am just looking for a clarification on this issue.

 

Again, Gadgets and Gear says:

"Players with characters who have Gadget Pool VPPs may find this book particularly helpful. Rather than having to build a new gadget using the HERO System rules every time, they can simply choose the device they want out of Gadgets And Gear and proceed without interrupting the game."

 

As I said initially, many of the gadgets described are in an mp frame. I know frame within a frame powers are illegal in 4th, but this wording and the book seems to ignore that. I only have Champ4, but have the basic 6e rules.

 

In 6e I see it explicitly stated you cannot buy vehicles, etc with the /5 rule. I am clearly missing the frame/frame rule.

[Winterlord]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

The builds in G&G assume you're making the gadgets to stand alone... not necessarily to put them in a Variable Power Pool. So yes, many of them are built as Multipowers, and you technically cannot place a Multipower inside a Variable Power Pool. That's never changed.

 

For the rules as written, I'd suggest making your VPP take take only a 0 Phase to change. Then you can put the powers of the gadget easily one at a time, even if they're built as a MP in G&G. For example, rather than putting a Flashlight Laser build (as a MP) in your VPP (which would be illegal), you could instead say "On Phase 3, I'm using the VPP for Images (the Flashlight Laser build for providing light). On Phase 5, I'm using the VPP for RKA (the Flashlight Laser build for its laser), etc." In other words, use the individual slots from the gadgets in G&G as your VPP powers (instead of the entire MP builds), and only have a given slot's Power in your VPP when you're actually using that slot.

 

Now. Having said all that, were *I* your GM, I would be inclined to allow you to put MPs in your VPP as a house rule, subject to GM oversight. For example, I would probably only allow pre-defined gadgets to be used this way, such as ones taken from G&G. Also, I would probably only allow it for reasonably innocuous items, not MPs full of attacks, etc.

 

To start, I am a non-Super in a Super World.

I like your reasoning. My flashlight/laser is a flashlight laser-pointer; I have one in my pocket as I write this. Most of my vpp slots are just real-world gadgets.

 

Many weapons are in a mp frame, I just happen to not have any bought that way.

 

It seems reasonable to me to allow an mp through a vpp that is clearly defined. My gm is cool with pretty much whatever (I am a non-super in a Super World), I am just trying to lock this rule down.

 

I also should say, the only mp's I would buy are defined either in a book, or in my scrawl.

[torchwolf]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

I am just looking for a clarification on this issue.

 

Again, Gadgets and Gear says:

"Players with characters who have Gadget Pool VPPs may find this book particularly helpful. Rather than having to build a new gadget using the HERO System rules every time, they can simply choose the device they want out of Gadgets And Gear and proceed without interrupting the game."

Still true. If you just need a single ability of a gadget, put the slot in your VPP. If you need the others too, put them in as well, just leave the MP framework.

 

As I said initially' date=' many of the gadgets described are in an mp frame. I know frame within a frame powers are illegal in 4th, but this wording and the book seems to ignore that. I only have Champ4, but have the basic 6e rules.[/quote']

Nope, no contradiction, just an impossible prospect. Under any edition of the Hero rules it would have been counterproductive to have a book listing all items both as MPs where appropriate for players who want single gadgets, and as single abilities pulled out of the MP framework and listed separately. The book would have contained many less gadgets if all MP listings were done this way, and the book would have been less valuable.

 

I understand what you're saying, but I really think you're taking that wording too literally.

Hence my long tirade on why it was probably done the way it was.

But hey, I can see that it's a bit awkward to pull out a single slot from an MP if the Active and Real Costs are not listed for the slot, requiring some minor recalculation in some cases where the slots are not fully written out, but then again they never have been, neither in earlier or later editions.

 

If you have the 4th edition rules and the 6th edition BR (Basic Rulebook), using 5th Edition Gadgets & Gear are bound to bring up at least a few oddities, but not any serious ones. I'm sure there are usually easy solutions and in any case there are always these boards.

 

In 6e I see it explicitly stated you cannot buy vehicles' date=' etc with the /5 rule. I am clearly missing the frame/frame rule.[/quote']

Nope, it's just that as BR says on the p32 sidebar, the Vehicles and Bases rules are not in there, they're in the full 6th Edition rules. The Vehicle Costs are explained only under "Cost" on p114 in the BR. Both in 5th Edition and 6th Edition Vehicles are bought as Perks, costing Points/5.

This is not exactly a framework, any more than the Multiform or Summon Powers, just a division.

 

However, 6th Edition Vehicles are way more expensive since they cost Total Cost/5 - they don't get any extra points from Disadvantages to bring this down before dividing by 5. More fair, but very much more expensive.

 

If I over-explained anything, please don't take that personally, just want to be clear.

[Chimera 12]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

By the book, you can't put one Power Framework into another. I'd generally stick with that -- Frameworks provide pretty big cost breaks as it is (compared to, say, having to buy all the powers inside them separately), and stacking them on top of each other is probably usually not such a good idea.

 

Of course, also by the book, just because something is explicitly forbidden doesn't mean you can't do it -- you just need to get your GM's permission. For instance, while Enhanced Senses are Special Powers and thus technically can't be put into Frameworks (without said permission, that is), I doubt that many GMs would in practice deny a character the ability to carry a radio or set of binoculars in their Gadget Pool...

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

Part of the problem here is that the frameworks are different. If my VPP were Cosmic (change without a roll, as a zero phase action) it would make no difference that I can't put a Multipower in it. I have, say, 60 points available and I can change them at will, so I have a multipower with unlimited slots already. In a Multipower, I could have my combo laser/flashlight as two slots, and another slot for my .357 magnum. I can do the same with a VPP that can be changed at will.

 

Where I see the G&G issue becoming problematic is where the VPP is not cosmic. I need a skill roll and/or access to my arsenal to drop off the laser/flashlight and switch it for my .357 magnum. But I should not, logically, need the same to flip the switch on my laser/flashlight to switch it between functions. Mechanically, one approach would be to pay for the "cosmic" advantages on the control cost, but limit these advantages to only apply to appropriate abilities (eg. I can flip the switch on my laser/flashlight. but not swap it for my .357 magnum). How much that limitation is worth depends on how often it prevents switching the points around. If you then assert you have an OmniGadget that can be instantaneously reconfigured to virtually any attack power, a force field, damage reduction, regeneration, various movement powers and a suite of enhanced senses, I suggest the limitation isn't very limiting. If you restrict yourself to pre-defined gadgets that are not so versatile, suddenly it seems a lot more limiting. But still better than a character who cannot swicth between slots with no time or skill roll under any circumstances.

[Chimera 12]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

Well, allowing a Multipower -- or any given power, period -- into a VPP just because it's pre-defined somewhere but not otherwise isn't necessarily a good dividing line because, at the in-game mechanical level, once the power is actually in the pool the difference between the two is wholly invisible. A 6d6 Autofire Blaster with both a "standard" and a "stun" setting is going to have exactly the same in-game effect regardless of who came up with it and when they did so.

 

Part of the issue, I suppose, is that Multipowers and Variable Power Pools really seem to exist to serve different purposes which aren't always 100% compatible with each other. A Multipower is straightforward -- you have exactly these pre-defined powers available at all times, you just get a point cost break because you can't use them all at full power at once. (That's why using them for attack powers which you couldn't normally use all that well at the same time anyway is so popular, of course.) A VPP, on the other hand, allows you to avoid committing fully to a specific setup in advance by keeping a blob of 'generic' character points around that you can hammer into shape at your leisure, which gives you much more flexibility than the most elaborate yet still somewhat practical Multipower could; in exchange, doing said hammering isn't entirely nontrivial thanks to the likely crunching of numbers involved and by default best done in noncombat time. (After all, how often do we really need to hear "Hold on, guys, I need a few minutes to figure out how to squeeze the most out of my pool for the third time this turn!"? )

 

I haven't wholly decided yet under which exact circumstances I would allow a Multipower into a VPP, were I GMing. Since it's always easier to start with a restriction and relax it later than to do the reverse, though, I honestly imagine right now that I'd start with the default "not at all" and see where that leads first...

 

(After all, nothing technically stops you from building your Flashlight Laser as just two distinct powers sharing the same Focus object. It's just that, without the ability to put them into a Multipower, it's going to eat up more of your pool -- but as that's only a temporary commitment until you decide to swap it out for some other device, I think I'd be okay with that.)

[torchwolf]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

While this may sound a bit metagamey, consider this:

If you want to have a flashlight laser ready for use, just copy the flashlight and laser slots from the MP and copy them within the VPP pool, activating both with the same Skill Roll. That way, both slots are available for use until the pool is switched. This represents the character pulling out a complete flashlight laser (putting together some prebuilt modules, cobbling one together quickly, locating the complete gadget in his extradimensional pocket dimension, whatever).

If you just want one of the abilities, say the flashlight, just activate that one. That would represent that the character has to _modify_ it into a laser, requiring a Phase and a Skill Roll, to switch the flashlight gadget to laser gadget (or just adding the laser function).

 

Looking at it like this, the VPP is slightly more useful for specialized gadgets (unless bought with Advantages for quick reallocation).

 

The most problematic use of an entire MP placed within a VPP is of course that any slot will be so disproportionally cheap (hence my suggestion above for a quick-balance approx), but in any case, if the GM approves, you can of course do it.

As long at just one of the MP-equivalent slot can be used at once, and it applies only to prebuilt gadgets, the ability to switch quickly between these particular abilities might not prove extremely unbalancing, but that would certainly depend on the particular multi-gadget intended.

 

Fairly recently, there was a forum discussion about these things, and how to best represent utility belts etc. One interesting thing brought up was the option (at GM discretion) of not having to define in advance how the VPP pool was allocated, allowing a gadgeteer to quickly pull out the appropriate gadget he coincidentally had kept ready for use. This might not work in all campaigns or genres (being a bit pulp-era in concept), but could certainly represent some classic literary tropes of gadgeteers.

 

All in all, GM's prerogative, I'd say.

[JmOz]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

A while ago we had a discussion about using a VPP for utility belt items. Basicaly it was a discusion about how to model a MP in a VPP when you get down to it. My idea on the best way to handle it was to use a cosmic VPP, then apply a limitation for "represents a group of X gadgets that can only be changed in an armory, -1/4". something to consider

[casualplayer]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

I think the main reason for the "No MPs in VPPs" prohibition was to prevent the game grinding to a halt while somebody kitbashed up their latest gizmo or trick, similar to the wizard who has to check the Players Handbook everytime it's his turn for the optimal spell. A VPP is already essentially a MP with infinite flexible slots and having G&G handy means that you probably aren't going to be bogging down the game, so this GM says "Sure, why not?"

[Chimera 12]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

It occurs to me that part of the issue with 'stacking' Power Frameworks may simply be definitional. That is, a Framework is a game element paid for with Character Points that holds one or more Powers; but is it actually a Power (with a capital P) in and of itself? (Characteristics and Skills technically aren't either, but in these cases buying them as Powers is explicitly allowed. With Frameworks I'm not so sure, although it's possible that I'm simply missing something.)

 

There's also the issue of Active Points. Say I have a 50-point Multipower with two fixed slots both using the full reserve; what would be its Active Cost for purposes of deciding whether it fits into another Multipower or VPP? 50? 60? 100?

[dmjalund]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

in the right VPP it would be 50

[bigbywolfe]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

in the right VPP it would be 50

Err, since MPs are not allowed in VPPs what is "the right VPP" even supposed to mean?

[dmjalund]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

Err' date=' since MPs are not allowed in VPPs what is "the right VPP" even supposed to mean?[/quote']with the right control cost advantage (somewhere between Cosmic and change 'at the shop'), you can simulate MPs that can change back at the shop, i.e. you can change between these slots like a Multipower, but to change what these slots are, you need to go to the shop

[Ice9]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

This is especially a problem with VPPs that are used for duplicating someone else's powers, or with Shapeshifting as a semi-Multiform; hence the industrial-strength "Multiform in a VPP" workaround.

 

I think it isn't necessarily going to cause any problem to allow it (actually, the "Cosmic w/ Limitation" version might be cheaper anyway), but you might want to keep an eye on it.

[JmOz]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

with the right control cost advantage (somewhere between Cosmic and change 'at the shop')' date=' you can simulate MPs that can change back at the shop, i.e. you can change between these slots like a Multipower, but to change what these slots are, you need to go to the shop[/quote']

 

I would require the +2 Cosmic on the control cost and then maybe up to a -1/2 lim on being able to change (But probably a -1/4, it is somewhat situational)

[Ice9]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

I would put the limitation at between -1/2 and -2, depending on how many devices they can carry at once and how difficult it is to switch those devices. -1/4 seems pretty low for what you're giving up - at that point you could get the "whatever you need for the exact situation" ability at only slightly more, and I don't think sticking to a concept should be mechanically weaker.

[Chimera 12]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

When you come down to it, a VPP that can fully emulate a Multipower without properly containing one is pretty much Cosmic by definition -- it needs to provide the ability to switch between powers as a zero-phase action without requiring a skill roll that Multipowers get for free by taking the appropriate Advantages or it just won't work as well.

 

Of course, a Cosmic VPP has an immediate edge over any Multipower of the same 'size' (speaking in terms of Pool or Reserve respectively): it has a potentially infinite number of virtual 'slots' that don't need to be defined in advance. A "gadget" pool probably shouldn't have that flexibility unless you want to model the kind of super-gadgeteer who does in fact always have the right item to hand just as he or she needs it. (For that kind of character, it's just about right.) On the other hand, gadgets are in and of themselves pretty much a catch-all category -- buy just about any Power, put it into a Focus of your choice, and presto! Instant gadget! So, the "gadget pool" concept is not in and of itself particularly restrictive.

 

So...a character who wants to use a VPP to pretend it can include one or more Multipowers, yet can only swap the actual devices carried in his lab back home or a similar situation? I'd call that perhaps a -1/4 Limitation, given that "can only change powers in his or her lab at all" is only -1/2 and this version is actually a good bit more permissive than that. (Having to pre-design the carried gadgets and get them approved by the GM is something I'd be inclined to call a -0 Limitation at most -- basically, a reminder that you should be doing that anyway for ease of play.) Of course, since we're talking about gadgets, the VPP should probably also take an appropriate Focus Limitation on its Control Cost -- another -1/4 if the character should be able to have the occasional IIF piece of gear, more if we're willing to have every gadget that's going to be in the pool more obvious and/or accessible than that. So, let's say -1/2 total. That may not sound like much, but this is still a character who has instantaneous access to every power of every gadget he or she is actually considered to be carrying with him or her. (And I don't see much point in distinguishing between 'single-power' and 'multipower' items in this respect, given that the player can define which is which to taste.) Knocking the Pool's final Control Cost down from 3x to only 2x normal doesn't sound too shabby in lights of that.

 

Finally, a thought. Possibly a heretical one, mind. If all you really want your character to be able to do is carry along some equipment that may vary from one scenario to the next but isn't very likely to change during actual play...why not just ask your GM for permission to trade in old pieces of gear for new ones between adventures? If any part of your character sheet has a good excuse to be less than eternally unchanging and sacrosanct, any gadgets listed would arguably be it.

[Ice9]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

I'd call that perhaps a -1/4 Limitation, given that "can only change powers in his or her lab at all" is only -1/2 and this version is actually a good bit more permissive than that.

More permissive, yes, but the "Only Change Power in Lab at all" version wouldn't be taking the expensive Cosmic advantage. On this scale:

 

A) +2 - Can change instantly

+0 - Can change as a full-phase action, with a roll.

C) -1/2 - Can change only in a lab

 

I would put "Can change instantly within a set of powers, but can only change that set in the lab" somewhere between A and B for a large set and somewhere between B and C for a small set.

[megaplayboy]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

A "cosmic" VPP that had a finite set of powers, via foci, with only one (or two) available at a time, is basically a multipower, and I'm pretty sure a VPP could be written up to perfectly emulate a MP(particularly one with all-ultra slots) at a similar price point. Which raises the question of whether we really only need 1 power framework, not two...

[Hyper-Man]

Re: 4th-6th VPP Question

 

More permissive, yes, but the "Only Change Power in Lab at all" version wouldn't be taking the expensive Cosmic advantage. On this scale:

 

A) +2 - Can change instantly

+0 - Can change as a full-phase action, with a roll.

C) -1/2 - Can change only in a lab

 

I would put "Can change instantly within a set of powers, but can only change that set in the lab" somewhere between A and B for a large set and somewhere between B and C for a small set.

 

See this old thread:

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php/75846-Ways-to-limit-my-Utility-Belt-VPP?highlight=utility+belt

 

Cosmic is still quite appropriate as it is just the combination of no skill roll and 0 phase to change.