Trebuchet Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Originally posted by Patriot While I will take some of the blame,I am actually the 3rd GM running this character ( BUT I recently ran a white event where I tore the character down...he was worse) My mistake. Then you can spread around the blame. If the player is really determined to continue running Stellar, make him chop the character down until he's legal pointwise. He should be 723 points max: 350 CP + 373 XP. (Why does he have 180 points of Disads? Does your campaign have no limit on Disad points?) And disallow some of the cheesier power constructions he used. I'd make him dump the Power Defense since he has so many Linked Powers. Why not make the power reduction/rebuild part of a scenario? Maybe his alien Hunteds steal some of his power? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Originally posted by Patriot His hunted by Aliens have shown up (just about 6 weeks ago) to feel him out, they asked about team membership, and were given the base tour, them ofered to play tag in the danger room ( they now know the lay out of the base, the basis of everyones powers ect.) they are a trio of hunters from the planet that launched the sattelite that crashed and gave him his powers, they have come to reclaim the info that it held, that is unknowingly held in Stellars head....and they just want his head Ummm...that really doesn't sound like "harshly punishing" Stellar to me, so I would suggest they haven't actually "shown up" yet. Why don't they take his head? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Originally posted by Trebuchet Since we don't know the defenses against the NND portion of the "black hole" attack, it's entirely possible his own attack would kill him even if he retained consciousness somehow. The limitation says "with no defense". Given the other issues, I can see the player thinking he can have the NND defense and be safe, but "with no defense" means exactly that to me - roll and take that much BOD. But he can't activate it anyway, so it's a moot point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Originally posted by Trebuchet I thought burning BODY for STUN after END runs out was an actual rule, but not in FREd apparently. I've seen versions proposed in various house rules since 1983ish. What I don't understand is how the numbers from Hero Designer don't add up with Gary's numbers. Stellar clearly has way more than 41 points spent on Skills. HD does all the math for you. To me that suggests the distinct possibility that Stellar's player somehow hacked the HD file in order to cheat. Well, it's a strange construction. When I loaded into V2 HD, it subtracted ~700 points. There's a package deal with Team Vangaard and something around there is throwing the math off. That reminds me, I was going to point Dan at that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zornwil Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Originally posted by lemming I've seen versions proposed in various house rules since 1983ish. Well, it's a strange construction. When I loaded into V2 HD, it subtracted ~700 points. There's a package deal with Team Vangaard and something around there is throwing the math off. That reminds me, I was going to point Dan at that. Heh, Dan may just say if you abuse HD enough it stops responding, like a jilted lover. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Originally posted by zornwil Heh, Dan may just say if you abuse HD enough it stops responding, like a jilted lover. Looks like Stellar beat HD into submission. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Patriot Posted October 2, 2003 Author Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 His hunted is feeling him out first He has no Idea they are his hunteds Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Originally posted by Hugh Neilson Ummm...that really doesn't sound like "harshly punishing" Stellar to me, so I would suggest they haven't actually "shown up" yet. Why don't they take his head? Hunteds "show up" according to the frequency of the disadvantage but it is not required for the hunted to kill, attack, etc. everytime they show up. What Patriot did actually sounds much more interesting than a typical hunted encounter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X Hunteds "show up" according to the frequency of the disadvantage but it is not required for the hunted to kill, attack, etc. everytime they show up. What Patriot did actually sounds much more interesting than a typical hunted encounter. More interesting role playing? Absolutely. Now, tell me how it was disadvantageous to Stellar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted October 2, 2003 Report Share Posted October 2, 2003 Originally posted by Hugh Neilson More interesting role playing? Absolutely. Now, tell me how it was disadvantageous to Stellar. Ah, you are from that school of thought. It's disadvantageous to Stellar because now the "bad guys" have staked out their target and his haunts. That means they can prepare. I think you are getting caught up in a temporal issue of when the disadvantage is demonstrated through a climactic scene. If you think hunteds mean the bad guy has to attack you or a dnpc everytime an 8 or less is rolled, I wouldn't bother playing with a hunted in your game. I would rather you use your imagination with the hunteds. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stray Cat Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 Re: A bad Situation(Kind of Long post/rant) Originally posted by Patriot Recently In my Champions Game (keep in mind he is a cook) Any Input? What would you do different? Would you run this? Are you kiddin? Stellar and the team were in mortal danger. After seein Under Seige, I'll never think of cooks in the same way! Cat Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gary Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 Here's what I would suggest with Stellar: 1) Balance the character's points! Remove enough points to get to 723, or 753 if your campaign allows unlimited disads. 2) Remove the DR, absorption, and Life support from the EC. This costs 35 additional points. 3) Force the player to buy off the OAF on his flight. This costs 16 pts. 4) Remove either the power defense, or the EC framework. This saves 7 pts if the character removes the power defense. 5) Remove the last ditch power. I can't believe any GM would ever allow it. This saves 97 pts. 6) Enforce the fact that he can't change his VPP in combat since he doesn't have a skill roll with the VPP. He could either buy a 24- VPP skill roll for 29 pts, or he could save 22 pts by removing the 1/2 phase to change on the control cost. 7) Keep track of End costs! With the amount of end he spends per phase, I can't believe this issue hasn't bitten him before. 8) If he doesn't want to chop enough points to be in balance, give him 1d6 unluck for every 5 pts deficit. Currently, he's 87 pts in deficit so he'd have 18d6 unluck. All this is just my opinion, but I'm sure most of the posters here wouldn't allow this character without massive changes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gewing Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 Re: Re: Well this is another fine mess Well, you could have him get kidnapped to hell and tormented for an EON in Relative time, then finally escape a better man... Or an insane lunatic, which appears to be what he was "Tending towards" I come down somewhere in between. Throwing the book at him is appropriate. Negligent Homicide is still homicide. I'll read more before I comment further. Originally posted by Hugh Neilson I see a couple of options: 1. Stellar has disappeared. When the player is ready to rejoin, he can decide whether he wants Stellar to stay "disappeared" or run some resolution scenario. Then you can decide whether Stellar was in hiding, or some other plot was going on. 2. Team Vanguard is ready to deal with the Stellar problem when something more urgent demands their attention. That "something" keeps them occupied until Stellar's player is ready to come back. #2 works best if you know how long the player will be missing and have something that can happen in the meantime (can we say "fill-in story"? "Annual"?) Otherwise, just "disappear" him and give some thought to what may have happened. Surely in his long career, he's met with someone who coul;d remove him from the campaign scene, whether for noble or sinister reasons. Maybe he's kidnapped by aliens/ otherdimensionals/time travellers for whatever reason ("Only his power can save us in our time of need"; "access his teleportation powers to aid in the conquest of the Universe"; "we need another Gladiator for the games - here's a likely target"). EDIT: Whether you have an idea why he disappeared or not, you might just find player speculation and theorizing provides you with a better plot anyway! Then they can "discover" that their speculation was correct and feel great pride in their clever deduction of your plot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Agent X Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 Since Stellar is taking a break I really think this is a good time to retcon. Blame the deaths on Eurostar somehow. Have Stellar disappear because the Aliens captured him. Let the team be confounded with his disappearance and do some other things. Eventually have them go on a space epic to rescue Stellar. When they find him, he has somehow been altered by the aliens so that the character is placed down where the other characters are in points. Or simply let Stellar fade into a memory. When the player comes back tell him to write up a new character. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 Originally posted by Gary All this is just my opinion, but I'm sure most of the posters here wouldn't allow this character without massive changes. You should listen to Mojo Jojo, because Mojo Jojo has a good plan and this plan is Mojo Jojo's and it is a good plan so you should listen! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 Originally posted by Agent X Ah, you are from that school of thought. It's disadvantageous to Stellar because now the "bad guys" have staked out their target and his haunts. That means they can prepare. I think you are getting caught up in a temporal issue of when the disadvantage is demonstrated through a climactic scene. If you think hunteds mean the bad guy has to attack you or a dnpc everytime an 8 or less is rolled, I wouldn't bother playing with a hunted in your game. I would rather you use your imagination with the hunteds. Actually, I frequently let the roll mean "behind the scenes, Dr. Apocalypse advances his plot against Our Heroes". However, I would expect to have had a confrontation with an "Arch-nemesis" before accumulating over 300 experience points, as Stellar has done. How many game years without the Hunted doing more than poking out their noses to look around? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hugh Neilson Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 Re: Re: Re: Well this is another fine mess Originally posted by gewing Well, you could have him get kidnapped to hell and tormented for an EON in Relative time, then finally escape a better man... Or an insane lunatic, which appears to be what he was "Tending towards" I come down somewhere in between. Throwing the book at him is appropriate. Negligent Homicide is still homicide. I'll read more before I comment further. As I read this, the name "Nebula" pops in my head. Why do you suppose that might be? Seriously, villain with cheesy power takes out hero with numerous cheesy powers seems a valid solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acowie Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 I know I should leave it alone... But I'm just wondering how that whole black hole power came about. Did Stellar have it as a starting character? Somewhat doubtful. Or did he save up for, what, two years play? "Have you decided what you want to spend your XP on yet - wow, it's got to be nearly a hundred points. This is going to be some kind of radiation accident! What are you going for - Strength, Dex, a VPP you can actually use :-)?" "OK, here it is - Stellar can now turn into a singularity. OK, so he dies, but if he gets brought back, he can do it again! But after that he can only do it once more. What do you think?" "Gosh, it's kind of game breaking, isn't it?" "Well, I'll only use it if I really need to. Like if someone's threatening a cook or something." Apologies to Patriot and the anonymous player involved... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mentor Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 Originally posted by Gary Here's what I would suggest with Stellar: 1) Balance the character's points! Remove enough points to get to 723, or 753 if your campaign allows unlimited disads. 2) Remove the DR, absorption, and Life support from the EC. This costs 35 additional points. 3) Force the player to buy off the OAF on his flight. This costs 16 pts. 4) Remove either the power defense, or the EC framework. This saves 7 pts if the character removes the power defense. 5) Remove the last ditch power. I can't believe any GM would ever allow it. This saves 97 pts. 6) Enforce the fact that he can't change his VPP in combat since he doesn't have a skill roll with the VPP. He could either buy a 24- VPP skill roll for 29 pts, or he could save 22 pts by removing the 1/2 phase to change on the control cost. 7) Keep track of End costs! With the amount of end he spends per phase, I can't believe this issue hasn't bitten him before. 8) If he doesn't want to chop enough points to be in balance, give him 1d6 unluck for every 5 pts deficit. Currently, he's 87 pts in deficit so he'd have 18d6 unluck. All this is just my opinion, but I'm sure most of the posters here wouldn't allow this character without massive changes. Just as an aside, Trebuchet and I were discussing this thread over lunch one day and hoped a real number cruncher would weigh in (as we were too lazy to do the math). At the time we both agreed that Gary would be just the right guy and...Ta Daaaaa. Good job, Gary. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lemming Posted October 3, 2003 Report Share Posted October 3, 2003 Re: I know I should leave it alone... Originally posted by acowie Or did he save up for, what, two years play? I'd say the rest of your points are valid, but depending on the gaming enviroment he could of gotten that many points in a week of play... (Back in college, during Thanksgiving break, one character got ~100 points. His player didn't GM and wound up playing the same player.... Weeeeee...) This goofy side track brought to you by six cups of coffee & no food! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vondy Posted October 14, 2003 Report Share Posted October 14, 2003 My team would have hit that place like a tornado. Eurostar is on their acceptable to bring in dead if alive isn't possible list, and they have a long history. In fact, in my campaign, the team finally got the drop on Eurostar and took them down with extreme force (and with shocking speed I might add). 2 memberw of Eurostar were killed, 2 almost died on the way to medical treatment, and all of the ones who lived were put in a highly secure classified detainment facility outside the official territory of the US where GTMO Bay style rules apply (in permanent hotsleep (well, coldsleep, really). Eurostar is a national security threat who put millions in harms way with their schemes (biowarfare, etc). Their escape isn't acceptable under any circumstances. A cook, and even a teammate, are acceptable losses. Its necessary to minimize collateral casualties, but letting Eurostar go to avoid them is, in my book, a decision of dubious morality, which is why I don't read comic books. I find comic book ethics banal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kristopher Posted November 12, 2003 Report Share Posted November 12, 2003 Originally posted by D-Man My team would have hit that place like a tornado. Eurostar is on their acceptable to bring in dead if alive isn't possible list, and they have a long history. In fact, in my campaign, the team finally got the drop on Eurostar and took them down with extreme force (and with shocking speed I might add). 2 memberw of Eurostar were killed, 2 almost died on the way to medical treatment, and all of the ones who lived were put in a highly secure classified detainment facility outside the official territory of the US where GTMO Bay style rules apply (in permanent hotsleep (well, coldsleep, really). Eurostar is a national security threat who put millions in harms way with their schemes (biowarfare, etc). Their escape isn't acceptable under any circumstances. A cook, and even a teammate, are acceptable losses. Its necessary to minimize collateral casualties, but letting Eurostar go to avoid them is, in my book, a decision of dubious morality, which is why I don't read comic books. I find comic book ethics banal. I stumbled across this thread as part of an unrelated search, and I just have to say that NO ONE EVER gets to complain about one of my characters again. Ugh. BTW, D-Man, comicbook ethics often are banal. Good call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 12, 2003 Report Share Posted November 12, 2003 I agree on the banality of comic book ethics, but if a group agrees to play within a certain genre (or subgenre), they're obligated to abide by the conventions of that genre. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trebuchet Posted November 12, 2003 Report Share Posted November 12, 2003 Originally posted by Pattern Ghost I agree on the banality of comic book ethics, but if a group agrees to play within a certain genre (or subgenre), they're obligated to abide by the conventions of that genre. I concur. Genre conventions are not strictly a construct of comic books or film. Real life cops and soldiers have standards they are supposed to adhere to as well. They may get more latitude than John Q. Citizen within their own purvue, but if they cross those conventions they can find themselves in a world of trouble with the authorities. Cops don't get to extort money or commit murder, soldiers don't get to rape and pillage. That bad apples occasionally do so doesn't mean the establishment as a whole tolerates such behavior. Bottom line: Supers who are four-color don't get to act like characters from graphic novels without drawing whole a lot of grief. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pattern Ghost Posted November 12, 2003 Report Share Posted November 12, 2003 Originally posted by Trebuchet Bottom line: Supers who are four-color don't get to act like characters from graphic novels without drawing whole a lot of grief. I'd go that one step further and say "Supers who are four-color don't get to act like characters from graphic novels." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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