room filled with water

[prestidigitator]

Re: room filled with water

 

Rather than 1 point of damage' date=' open up the Advanced Players Guide and make the effect "suffocation". Tack on the CV penalties for being underwater, and the CE now creates an aea of effect which is effectively underwater.[/quote']

 

Cool. Don't have the APG (yet). I figured 1 point of damage was probably about the equivalent of suffocation, which might do a bit more than "1 point" at times and effectively be NND, but is avoidable by having End left to spend and/or having LS. I look forward to seeing what the APG has to say about it though.

[prestidigitator]

Re: room filled with water

 

I don't have 6E with me' date=' but 5ER specifically list Something from Nothing as one of the options for Major Transform.[/quote']

 

Yeah. 6E talks about it too. Despite the wording below, I'm guessing it'd probably be a "Severe" Transform now (which costs as much and has basically the same effect as a Major Transform did in 5E, while "Major" Transforms now cost 10 points/d6; they added a little resolution to the bottom end of the scale), based on the examples they give under each category of Transform.

 

CREATING OBJECTS

A character can use Major Transform to create objects, but the GM must carefully regulate this ability. For example, a Spell of Water Creation would be a Major Transform (air/nothingness into water), with the amount of water created based on the BODY rolled on the Transform dice (say, four liters per BODY). However, characters ordinarily shouldn’t be allowed to create extremely useful things....

[bigbywolfe]

Re: room filled with water

 

Thanks for providing the relavent 6E reference. Hopefully that answers Ragitsu's question on the topic.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: room filled with water

 

You keep trying to reason from a special effect.

HERO is all about reason from the effect you want to then pick the appropriate mechanic (Power) to build it

 

I echo this. "I want to create water". OK, what do you want the results of creating water to be? If you just want to create water from nothing, Transform. It is entirely up to the GM what effect this will have, and this will include an inability to create the effects of other powers. You can standardize the amount of water with Standard Effect. Even 1 pip of effect creates quite a bit of water. But it doesn't allow you to conveniently create water inside a container, with none spilling.

 

You could gain a similar effect wth "life support, usable by others, need not eat or drink, only removes need to drink". It would be likewise pretty low cost.

 

You want to drown people while impairing their movement and CV's? That's a much more powerful effect. The Change Environment option works better.

 

You want to create water inside their lungs to quickly and efficiently disable them? That sounds more like an attack and should be purchased as such. If you want to Create Water in a dragon's brain, killing it instantly, that sounds like a very expensive attack power, probably some form of NND that does BOD. It will be expensive, but don't worry about the cost as I'm unlikely to allow such a powerful effect anyway.

[dmjalund]

Re: room filled with water

 

Then again someone might be wanting to create a character who can create water, and then figure out what he can do with it

[FreeDice]

Re: room filled with water

 

It's like creating a vehicle in HERO. There isn't one Power to do it. You create a collection of abilities describing what the vehicle does.

 

Yet at the same time, there is one power to "Get" a vehicle. It's either a Perk or Summon.

 

And while I would just use Transform "Air into Water" and hand-wave what happens if there is no air (unless it's Star HERO or Galactic Champions or some campaign where you're always in space), you could also just Summon it, which would be super cheap.

 

Just build 4,000 square feet of water (or 113,267 litres), which is mostly just size, no BODY, no DEF. Then, give it Slavish, and BAM, cheap easy Summon.

 

Now, if it's being used mostly as an attack (instead of just to get lots of water to thirsty people, or a make a fountain), then it's probably more fairly costed our as a Transform.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: room filled with water

 

This kind of question always gets a bit angsty and to say that because one system has something that another should to is not a productive way forward.

 

HERO has always been different from other systems because you look at the game effect and wrap the SFX round that - most other games come at it in different ways. So there is a 'wrong' way to ask questions.

 

In this case it is difficult because the concept is so easy. The character has the ability to fill a room with water. HERO wants to know what effect that has in game terms before suggesting possible ways to build it. The problem with such things is that they can be effective instant kill powers if you are not careful.

 

If the character creates the water, how quickly before it drains away? All problematic.

 

Now if the main effect is to drown people (kill them) then HERO sees that as a killing attack - limited by the fact that it will not affect those who had life support or can hold their breath - a good NND effect as anyone can hold their breath for a certain amount of time. The side environmental effects are all about change environment.

 

Once you buy the effects, then the SFX (and associated practical questions can be handwaved with SFX style responses). If you want to create a bulk of water then you can do that with transform - create the water and allow the GM to decide on how long it hangs around etc. I do not think Summon really works for this - your power is to turn nothing into something - bring water into existence that never existed before. The core description of summons is that the "character can summon a being from another location or plane of existence". It does become more fuzzy with the next clause, "Or create certain types of beings or objects". I do not consider a body of water to be a being or object and the power description indicates objects to be, for example vehicles or bases. In essence, something complex.

 

Transform does indicate that creating objects out of thin air to be a major transform. In this case the BODY rolled would be the volume of water created.

 

I do not think HERO needs a create power because of the underlying philosophy to the game any more than it needs a fire or electricity power.

 

Doc

[Ragitsu]

Re: room filled with water

 

So there is a 'wrong' way to ask questions.

 

Once again, no, there is not. This is entirely antithetical to what RPGs should do: provide the freedom to create any character.

 

You ask someone what they want, and they say "I want to create up to a roomful of water" and then you ask "What does it do?" and they say "...creates enough water to fill a room, what else could I mean?" then it's clear: they want a form of matter creation, not a ton of linked effects in an area.

 

This water will be consumable (unless stated otherwise), will ruin things not meant to be immersed in water, can drown anyone caught in it that is unable to escape/doesn't have their own air or means to breathe, and do anything ordinary water can. Easy.

 

I do not think HERO needs a create power because of the underlying philosophy to the game any more than it needs a fire or electricity power.

 

What HERO needs is irrelevant here. It is what the player wants that is important.

[prestidigitator]

Re: room filled with water

 

Or...Summon a water elemental that'll create the water or drown the victim or whatever. A little indirect, but that'll make Summon work. Heh heh.

[Ragitsu]

Re: room filled with water

 

Or...Summon a water elemental that'll create the water or drown the victim or whatever. A little indirect' date=' but that'll make Summon work. Heh heh.[/quote']

 

"I didn't kill him. The elemental and the water killed him"

[Escafarc]

Re: room filled with water

 

This water will be consumable (unless stated otherwise), will ruin things not meant to be immersed in water, can drown anyone caught in it that is unable to escape/doesn't have their own air or means to breathe, and do anything ordinary water can. Easy.

.

 

In the HERO system you have to pay for all these separate abilities: Life Support, Dispel/Supress, Change Enviroment[suffication from APG] the Special Effect is a Room Full of Water.

[Ragitsu]

Re: room filled with water

 

In the HERO system you have to pay for all these separate abilities: Life Support' date=' Dispel/Supress, Change Enviroment[suffication from APG'] the Special Effect is a Room Full of Water.

 

Says who? If you Transform whatever to water, you're getting water. Unless the GM wants to make things not do what they naturally do, then you've opted to not use the Link-A-Ton-Of-Effects route, and still indirectly get them, by the nature of the matter.

[Escafarc]

Re: room filled with water

 

Says who? If you Transform whatever to water' date=' you're getting water. Unless the GM wants to make things not do what they [i']naturally[/i] do, then you've opted to not use the Link-A-Ton-Of-Effects route and still indirectly get them, by the nature of the matter.

 

I wouldn't allow you to duplicate other powers with Tranform ( I believe it says something about this somewhere in the books)

[Doc Democracy]

Re: room filled with water

 

Once again' date=' no, there is not. This is entirely antithetical to what RPGs should do: provide the freedom to create any character.[/quote']

 

My initial thought is bollox...but I will give it more consideration.

 

After due consideration, my thought is that RPGs are there to allow players to achieve a particular style of gameplay. In doing so they set down rules that facilitate that gameplay and, in the pursuit of that, will dictate how that is to be achieved. If the game is to retain integrity then it will mitigate against particular questions and whether things are done in a particular way.

 

As a rider, no-one has said that the character is unachievable, or cannot be created. What has been said is that the route of getting from concept to character design takes place in a certain way. That is the point of choosing one system over another.

 

 

You ask someone what they want' date=' and they say "I want to create up to a roomful of water" and then you ask "What does it do?" and they say "...creates enough water to fill a room, what else could I mean?" then it's clear: they want a form of matter creation, not a ton of linked effects in an area.[/quote']

 

And I say that I would not ask someone what they want, I would ask them what they want to be able to do and then follow that with supplementaries to get a good idea of what the player wants to achieve in game, what needs to be built in powers and what can be left to SFX.

 

This water will be consumable (unless stated otherwise)' date=' will ruin things not meant to be immersed in water, can drown anyone caught in it that is unable to escape/doesn't have their own air or means to breathe, and do anything ordinary water can. Easy.[/quote']

 

Does the power obey real world physics or comic book physics? Does it invoke the drowning rules or does the player want something a bit faster acting? There are any number of ways in which filling a room with water can deviate from player expectations if things are not tied down before the game starts.

 

What HERO wants is irrelevant. It is what the player wants that is important.

 

Really? So why use a ruleset at all? What if the player wants more than 350 points, or a cheaper defence? What if the player wants invulnerability? What if the player wants omniscience? Not everything can be subject to the whim of the player, it is playing within the rules to achieve something fun and entertaining that is the point and that is a joint project between GM, players and a decent set of rules.

 

What HERO wants defines the style of the gameplay. If the player wants/needs something different, then there are lots of other rulesets that provide very different styles of gameplay for the player to use.

 

 

Doc

 

Doc

[Doc Democracy]

Re: room filled with water

 

I wouldn't allow you to duplicate other powers with Tranform ( I believe it says something about this somewhere in the books)

 

I think the difference is that transforming water should not provide the same reliability of effect that using specific powers would.

 

If a player had a power to create that amount of water then I would tend to apply real world physics such as that it would not remain within a room and might not even stick around long enough to cause any real amount of drowning or to effectively drench everything in the room.

 

Doc

[prestidigitator]

Re: room filled with water

 

There's also the standpoint that if you've paid for a big expensive power, it is okay to allow it to have some other minor effects without having to simulate absolutely every little corner case that you could possibly dream up. I mean, if there's a fire in the room is the GM going to prevent the power from being used because the character didn't also pay for some kind of Dispel/Drain on fire, or revoke the legality of the power retroactively because a corner case was found that the power's mechanics didn't deal with, or just make the fire go ahead and keep burning underwater because the effect wasn't built-in? I sure hope not.

[Ragitsu]

Re: room filled with water

 

Yep, either way works, as long as you're getting what you paid for.

[Escafarc]

Re: room filled with water

 

There's also the standpoint that if you've paid for a big expensive power' date=' it is okay to allow it to have some other minor effects without having to simulate absolutely every little corner case that you could possibly dream up. I mean, if there's a fire in the room is the GM going to prevent the power from being used because the character didn't also pay for some kind of Dispel/Drain on fire, or revoke the legality of the power retroactively because a corner case was found that the power's mechanics didn't deal with, or just make the fire go ahead and keep burning underwater because the effect wasn't built-in? I sure hope not.[/quote']

The key word there is minor. Drowning some one is not minor. Destroying the villian's technical do-dads is not minor.

[prestidigitator]

Re: room filled with water

 

The key word there is minor. Drowning some one is not minor. Destroying the villian's technical do-dads is not minor.

 

True, but the creation of that much water is not going to be cheap (or won't be speedy, one or the other), no matter which way you do it. So "minor" is pretty relative. Drowning someone is pretty slow and often easy to avoid, and is in some sense a defect in the target (the inability to move, breathe, etc., in a particular environment). Likewise, any equipment of the villain's that would be destroyed by simple water is probably either free or has some kind of Limitation to reflect the fact that it doesn't work underwater.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: room filled with water

 

There's also the standpoint that if you've paid for a big expensive power' date=' it is okay to allow it to have some other minor effects without having to simulate absolutely every little corner case that you could possibly dream up. I mean, if there's a fire in the room is the GM going to prevent the power from being used because the character didn't also pay for some kind of Dispel/Drain on fire, or revoke the legality of the power retroactively because a corner case was found that the power's mechanics didn't deal with, or just make the fire go ahead and keep burning underwater because the effect wasn't built-in? I sure hope not.[/quote']

 

I have encouraged creative use of powers for minor (but potentially game-changing) effects. I am abolsutely not against allowing stuff to be used in ways that the costs are not down for but I am against simply allowing what is essentially a special effect to get a lot of game effect for free.

 

What if the power was not to fill the room with water but to fill it with hydrofluoric acid. Or hydrogen sulphide. Would you allow that with all of the things that these substances could achieve in reality? The cost would be no more than the water one, possibly less as the BODY of gas needed to fill the room would be consdierably less.

 

Doc

[dmjalund]

Re: room filled with water

 

Its like the question - does Superman buy Vulnerability/Susceptibility to Kryptonite, or does Lex Luthor have to buy nd6 RKA - only works vs Superman

[Ragitsu]

Re: room filled with water

 

"Whatever works".

[prestidigitator]

Re: room filled with water

 

What if the power was not to fill the room with water but to fill it with hydrofluoric acid. Or hydrogen sulphide. Would you allow that with all of the things that these substances could achieve in reality? The cost would be no more than the water one' date=' possibly less as the BODY of gas needed to fill the room would be consdierably less.[/quote']

 

Probably not in general. But let's think of it this way. A Constant, Area of Effect (8m radius), NND, Does Body attack does 20 Active Points (4 DCs) per d6 of Normal Damage. The same volume (8m radius sphere is 2144m^3) of dry air at standard temperature and pressure is about 2800kg, which comes to about 15 Body with the standard +1 Body per doubling of mass over 100kg. To affect that much air with a single Major Transform (10 points/d6) would require 9 dice (3.5*9 = 31.5 Body), which is 90 Base Points. So I think doing a small amount of NND damage for 90 points worth of Transform (vs. the 20 per d6 as above) would be pretty "minor". Heck, to affect a 1m radius volume of air (4m^3, 5kg, 6 Body) would require a 3.5d6 Major Transform, or 35 Base Points. Still more than the NND attack (especially if we drop the Area of Effect from it). And remember I'm going by the mass of air, not even the mass of the substance created (which'll generally be greater than air and require a larger Transform).

 

Should a straight attack to cause harm be built with the Transform method? No; it's not the best mechanic to simulate the effect. But a small amount of "environmental" damage as a (relatively minor) side effect of such a Transform? I don't see a real problem with it.

[Ragitsu]

Re: room filled with water

 

Should a straight attack to cause harm be built with the Transform method?

 

It can be, as long as the Transform turns whatever into a substance/element/matter/what have you that is capable of such damage.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: room filled with water

 

Should a straight attack to cause harm be built with the Transform method? No; it's not the best mechanic to simulate the effect. But a small amount of "environmental" damage as a (relatively minor) side effect of such a Transform? I don't see a real problem with it.

 

It can be' date=' as long as the Transform turns whatever into a substance/element/matter/what have you that is capable of such damage.[/quote']

 

My problem is consistency. If you allow the water transform then you should allow the hydrogen sulphide transform (very dangerous gaseous poison) and the hydrofluoric gas transform (which will do far more environmental damage). If you allow the latter then you are getting very far away from minor environmental damage...

 

For game consistency the build approach should be different...

 

Doc