room filled with water

[prestidigitator]

Re: room filled with water

 

My problem is consistency. If you allow the water transform then you should allow the hydrogen sulphide transform (very dangerous gaseous poison) and the hydrofluoric gas transform (which will do far more environmental damage). If you allow the latter then you are getting very far away from minor environmental damage...

 

For game consistency the build approach should be different...

 

Can we call the "difference" that water isn't normally a very hazardous substance, unless used "inappropriately"?

 

Hey, remember I'm generally in favor of the Change Environment or similar build myself, but I'm also saying I don't think the Transform approach is totally inappropriate or unbalanced.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: room filled with water

 

So what I am hearing you saying (forgive me if I am putting words in your mouth), is that the question of build is not as simple as "I want to create water" it depends on what the player wants to achieve with the created substance?

 

It seems to me crucial to the discussion with Ragitsu about whether the game needs a create power. I suppose that the answer to that could be yes but it would have to be costed depending on the effects of the substance created...

 

 

Doc

[Hyper-Man]

Re: room filled with water

 

How about if we back up a couple of steps and ask "how do you build an ability to create anything"?

 

That was essentially the question put forth when trying to build the DCU character Firestorm.

And the answer was VPP.

[Markdoc]

Re: room filled with water

 

It can be' date=' as long as the Transform turns whatever into a substance/element/matter/what have you that is capable of such damage.[/quote']

 

I don't think you are going to have a great deal of success with Hero system ....

 

I'm not trying to be snarky, but there is, indeed often a wrong way to do something, and creating powerful attacks with relatively weak powers is definitely a wrong way. The rules even point this out explicitly: it's not a good idea to try and duplicate power using other powers

 

We've had this discussion with another - long departed - poster in the past. He wanted a "create napalm" power. When people pointed out that there is no such power - if he wanted to burn people, he should base his build on RKA or EB - his reaction was, "No, No, No! I want to "create napalm" not "build an attack"".

 

The core of Hero system is that these are two different things. An attack is a game mechanic and therefore buildable under the rules. "Napalm" or "water" are special effects. In terms of mechanics, "create Napalm" is no different from "throws burning croissants". Any in-game, mechanistic differences are differences in build - the description is just a special effect. Confusing special effects and game mechanics is a common mistake to people who are new to the rules set, but it really is a mistake and is only going to cause confusion if you try and run a game like this.

 

Special effects can (and should) have minor effects on the game world. But they should not be used to replace other mechanics, because that takes your game to a place the rules were explicitly not designed to handle. It's no surprise they won't work well. A competent GM will (quite appropriately) frustrate a player who wants to use "create water" as their major attack power if they didn't buy any attacks. Walls and doors will buckle, letting the water leak out, gadgets will emerge dripping but functional, Firelad's firewall will just boil the water off as steam. A suite of attacks built using "create water" as a powerset is entirely suitable (and relatively easy to build). Trying to use "transform anything into water" as a substitute for those other powers is not suitable and would be a nightmare to adjudicate in-game.

 

cheers, Mark

[Ragitsu]

Re: room filled with water

 

I don't think you are going to have a great deal of success with Hero system ....

 

I'm not trying to be snarky, but there is, indeed often a wrong way to do something, and creating powerful attacks with relatively weak powers is definitely a wrong way. The rules even point this out explicitly: it's not a good idea to try and duplicate power using other powers

 

We've had this discussion with another - long departed - poster in the past. He wanted a "create napalm" power. When people pointed out that there is no such power - if he wanted to burn people, he should base his build on RKA or EB - his reaction was, "No, No, No! I want to "create napalm" not "build an attack"".

 

The core of Hero system is that these are two different things. An attack is a game mechanic and therefore buildable under the rules. "Napalm" or "water" are special effects. In terms of mechanics, "create Napalm" is no different from "throws burning croissants". Any in-game, mechanistic differences are differences in build - the description is just a special effect. Confusing special effects and game mechanics is a common mistake to people who are new to the rules set, but it really isa mistake and is only going to cause confusion if you try and run a game like this.

 

Special effects can (and should) have minor effects on the game world. But they should not be used to replace other mechanics, because that takes your game to a place the rules were explicitly not designed to handle. It's no surprise they won't work well. A competent GM will (quite appropriately) frustrate a player who wants to use "create water" as their major attack power if they didn't buy any attacks. Walls and doors will buckle, letting the water leak out, gadgets will emerge dripping but functional, Firelad's firewall will just boil the water off as steam. A suite of attacks built using "create water" as a powerset is entirely suitable (and relatively easy to build). Trying to use "transform anything into water" as a substitute for those other powers is not suitable and would be a nightmare to adjudicate in-game.

 

cheers, Mark

 

All that to justify "my way is the highway"? Sorry, but you're still wrong, and this is coming off as what i've come to known as GM elitism.

 

You are essentially trying to step on the windpipe of an idea, because someone isn't doing something a standard way.

 

Either method is equally valid, and that is that.

[Doc Democracy]

Re: room filled with water

 

You are essentially trying to step on the windpipe of an idea' date=' because someone isn't doing something a standard way. [/quote']

 

:-)

 

You seem determined to say that I (and others) do not want the OP to get what he wants. In fact we are trying to help onto the path we think is the right one (and the easiest to run in game). We are pointing out how the game is set up to work in certain ways and how it can cause problems to do things in other ways.

 

Either method is equally valid' date=' and that is that.[/quote']

 

It is amazing that you can tell us that we are dogmatic and then say that. :-)

 

 

Doc

[Ragitsu]

Re: room filled with water

 

It is amazing that you can tell us that we are dogmatic and then say that. :-)

 

I know: I didn't say something, yet I still said it. I wonder how many laws of physics i'm breaking .

[Vondy]

Re: room filled with water

 

This may be out of touch with the superheroic mode of play, but I'd use a transform to convert air to water and use the drowning rules. But, again, I focus on heroic games and the philosophy of what to spend points on and what not to is somewhat different.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: room filled with water

 

Once again' date=' no, there is not. This is entirely antithetical to what RPGs should do: provide the freedom to create any character.[/quote']

 

So I should have the freedom to Create Triple O Man? My character is omniscient, omnipresent and omnipotent. He sees all, is always there and can always change anything to go the way he wants. Should I have the freedom to create that character, thus denying the other players of any relevance to their characters, and the game of any challenge?

 

You ask someone what they want' date=' and they say "I want to create up to a roomful of water" and then you ask "What does it do?" and they say "...creates enough water to fill a room, what else could I mean?" then it's clear: they want a form of matter creation, not a ton of linked effects in an area.[/quote']

 

Hero is designed around the simple premise that you build the mechanical ability based on the results you wish it to have, with the special effects being window dressing. The special effect of this power is "it creates enough water to fill a room". What room? A small secondary bathroom in my basement, the main hall in a large theatre, or something in between? That's a big difference in the amount of water created.

 

Ensuring that it has the effects the player wants is critical to ensuring the player gets the character they thought they were designing. In order to meet those expectations, I need to know what effects the water is expected to have, as that will determine the mechanics to be used in creating the power. If it just fills the room with water which quickly drains away, the best approach may be a large Dispel against fire and any tech that would be adversely affected by being immersed, and "that is that". It causes no harm and, as an SFX, leaves behind a wet room (or wet area). This power creates enough water to fill the room, which then rapidly drains away (much like real water would, if suddenly appearing from nowhere). If you create it in an airtight container (say an empty swimming pool), I'm OK with allowing it to be trapped in the pool - a minor enough effect.

 

When the player then is unhappy because he envisioned the water remaining in place, drowning those needing air to breathe, impeding all movement other than swimming, and impeding combat for most characters (other than those with special environmental movement powers), this is because we did not discuss the effect he wanted to create, and build the power to create it. If he expected the water to gush out, dragging cmall objects and even characters along with it, again we did not create the effect he was looking for. This is not the system's fault. It is the fault of those who did not understand how to use the system to achieve the desired effect.

 

This water will be consumable (unless stated otherwise)' date=' will ruin things not meant to be immersed in water, can drown anyone caught in it that is unable to escape/doesn't have their own air or means to breathe, and do anything ordinary water can. Easy.[/quote']

 

Not easy. It requires agreeing what "ordinary water" can do. How much volume is required? How much STR is required to remain in polace as it gushes out? Do characters trapped in it get the chance to take a deep vreath before being engulfed, or do they start drowning immediately? Over time, ordinary water made the Grand Canyon. Can this character achieve similar feats? How quickly?

 

Where can the water be created? Can it be conveniently created in containers to store water without soaking the surroundings, and wrecking the PC's equipment that is susceptible to water damage? Can it be conveniently created in your lungs, causing you to drown more immediately?

 

If I allow this power to "create ordinary water", what about a power to create an equivalent mass of pure alcohol, or gasoline which can then be set aflame, or just create flames or molton lava? In many games, such powers are defined individually, and their mechanics defined within the power. The results are not always logical. Molton lava doesn't do enough damage to kill a small dog immersed for a minute. Filling a huge enclosed artea with flames does not reduce oxygen available or leave smoke so there are breathing issues afterwards. In Hero, YOU get to pick the mechanics. The cost of a more customizable system is the requirement to do some work customizing to get the results you want the power to achieve. So what mechanical effects do you want your power to achieve?

 

What HERO needs is irrelevant here. It is what the player wants that is important.

 

Perhaps you would be happier using the first role playing system, which is called "Let's Pretend". You define the power and what it does. Then your other players and/or GM debate with you over the results until you come to a consensus. "Bang - you're dead" "No, you missed". This is a fine system if players and GM's easily reach consensus, or if they don't mind long debates. Game systems - EVERY game system - are attempts to codify the results of "let's pretent" by pre-establishing the consensus reality. You want the water to stick around? You build a power that is Constant, and the water sticks around. You want it to drown people? You decide what damage they should take, and how quickly, and you incorporate that mechanic. You want it to douse fires? You can buy a Dispel power to make that happen. It leaves everything wet? No big game impact, so that sounds like special effects, but chat with the GM.

 

Now that the ability "Fill the room with water" has been codified by mechanics, we have a common basis for determining the effects of filling the room with water.

 

Is this a difficult ability to construct? Probably. Are there other games which might build this power more easily? Very likely. And it is also very likely that those games leave more for the player/GM to determine (especially if the Power description is "The character creates a 10' x 10' x 10' cube of water for every VARIABLE used in the power". Does it drain away immediately? Can he vary that shape (make it 5' x 20' x 10', for example?) Does adding VARIABLE make the sides of the cube enlarge in equal proportions, or add more cubes? Must they be adjacent? What does all that water do (or do the GM and players establish that, rather than relying on the rule set to do it for them)? I suspect you will find things that are hard to simulate in those other games too. Try telling the D&D DM that you want your Fireball to be a cone rather than a sphere, or to inflict cold damage rather than fire damage, and see how far you get. Maybe he will point you to a spell in another book that does what you want (hopefully, it is the same level). Perhaps he will show you various metamagic feats which mean you can get the effect you want, but not as the 3rd level spell slot you wanted it to fit into. Or maybe he will introduce you to the Spell Research rules. In Hero, I simply write "conic area" instead of "radius" and "cold" instead of "fire", and I'm done. Much simpler, no?

 

Says who? If you Transform whatever to water' date=' you're getting water. Unless the GM wants to make things not do what they [i']naturally[/i] do, then you've opted to not use the Link-A-Ton-Of-Effects route, and still indirectly get them, by the nature of the matter.

 

Do we agree on all the mechanical effects of what water does naturally? Should I be able to "Transform - Ragitsu's character to steaming pile of dead flesh" rather than buying an attack power? How about Transforming the air 1 mm thick surrounding a target to impermeable plastic so they just suffocate, or to the Fires of Hell so they are instantly burned to death, or just to a vacuum which causes him to explode? How much BOD can a vacuum possibly have? That should be a pretty cheap Transform, right?

 

The fact is that Hero is a very mechanics-oriented game system. If you want something more free form, then this is probably not the system to choose. Nothing can be "all things to all people".

[Markdoc]

Re: room filled with water

 

No, it's not "My way or the highway". I'm trying (fairly gently, at this point) to indicate that you are wrong and that saying "Any rules construct is valid, no matter how ill-thought out" is in fact, not true. The ruleset was designed with certain basic assumptions in mind. All game systems are. Hero system makes those assumptions explicit in the rules themselves, and one of the explicit assumptions is that you pay for what you want and get what you pay for.

 

That's why experienced Hero system GMs, when a poster asks "How do I build X" always ask "What do you want X to do?" Saying "I want to summon water" is fine, but it's a starting point, not the end of the process. The next step is defining "Well what do you want the water to do?". I'm not trying to step on the windpipe of a new idea (not that I mind doing so, of course ) because this isn't a new idea - it's a very, very old idea, which is repeatedly brought up and repeatedly rejected .... just as we are doing now.

 

The reason we are rejecting it is because there are no mechanics involved in "water". How many active points of water does it take to douse a 20 active point firewall? How effectively does "water" stop an energy blast, if it's sprayed in the air? How much damage does "water" do if it is dropped on Emberlass? How much "water" is removed by a 10d6 Suppress? The correct answers are - in all cases - how did you build it? If you didn't build it, but just said "It's water! Duh!" the the GM has no way of adjudicating those interactions. If the GM is dumb enough to try and work the special effect as though it was an actual power, he opens the door to a flood (heh heh) of abuse. As pointed out it costs no more to create water with transform than it costs to create hydrofluoric acid, which will dissolve concrete and which will kill a human in very short order, even in quite small qualities. Why spend 90 points on an RKA when a 20 point transform will do the same job?

 

Saying "I don't want to spend points on it, I just want it to act like water" essentially undercuts the entire rationale around which the rules are built, which is that the price structure assigned to powers is intended to keep different characters in relative parity - which in turn allows a very wide range of possible builds. Hero system is not perfect, but it's the best attempt I've seen so far in this direction.

 

cheers, Mark

[Ragitsu]

Re: room filled with water

 

"Any rules construct is valid' date=' [b']no matter how ill-thought out[/b]"

 

Eh? Man, I keep missing things that weren't said. Bad habit of mine.

 

Anyhow, the bit about Transform pretty much makes this entire debate a moot point by now, as it indeed proves there is more than one way to do a Power. Finally, the topic creator has received their answer.

 

If this divergence merits more discussion, then someone should create another topic about it.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: room filled with water

 

The reason we are rejecting it is because there are no mechanics involved in "water". How many active points of water does it take to douse a 20 active point firewall? How effectively does "water" stop an energy blast' date=' if it's sprayed in the air? How much damage does "water" do if it is dropped on Emberlass? How much "water" is removed by a 10d6 Suppress? The correct answers are - in all cases - how did you build it? If you [b']didn't[/b] build it, but just said "It's water! Duh!" the the GM has no way of adjudicating those interactions.

 

Agree 100% with Markdoc.

 

As well, what you want it to do often not logical. How many characters in comics and games have a "flaming aura" which protects them from harm (defenses). Ever see a fire stop a bullet?

[azrad]

Re: room filled with water

 

Saying "I don't want to spend points on it, I just want it to act like water" essentially undercuts the entire rationale around which the rules are built, which is that the price structure assigned to powers is intended to keep different characters in relative parity - which in turn allows a very wide range of possible builds. Hero system is not perfect, but it's the best attempt I've seen so far in this direction.

I think you made some great points. If you create a substance with transform then want to get a combat effect out of it you are totally at the GM's mercy. In most circumstances I wouldn't let a transform (nothing to water) drown someone, because in most environments introducing say 10,000 gallons of water isn't going to drown anyone. Instead it would just spread out. So unless you were in an unusual situation (say fighting in an empty swimming pool) I don't think it would drown anyone. In an extreme situation where a transform of this kind needed to be converted to an attack power to resolve the situation I might allow 1/2 or 1/4 of the active cost to be used (by me, the GM) to construct a power to simulate the situation. For example maybe a very weak TK to simulate the water pushing stuff away from the center of the power as the water dispersed. Long story short if you want to drown people buy an attack power (or change environment), if you want to make a pile of water and hope for the best, use the transform (basically the same advise many people have given already).

[gabriel17]

Re: room filled with water

 

I will "simply" buy a multipower with a slot for each effect you want the water to have in a given situation, like:

Slot 1: Life support (diminished drinking)

Slot 2: Major transformation nothing into water (create water for no specific purpose)

Slot 3: NND RKA (create water in lungs)

Slot 4: NND RKA area of effect (create a coherent bubble of water around several people)

Slot 5: Blast (attack with pressurized water)

And so on...

Otherwise try buy: Major transformation nothing into water plus power skill (water manipulation) and hope the GM will permit it

[Hyper-Man]

Re: room filled with water

 

Do you have a copy of the rules?

 

I should have also asked "have you read them?"

[prestidigitator]

Re: room filled with water

 

I think you made some great points. If you create a substance with transform then want to get a combat effect out of it you are totally at the GM's mercy. In most circumstances I wouldn't let a transform (nothing to water) drown someone' date=' because in most environments introducing say 10,000 gallons of water isn't going to drown anyone. Instead it would just spread out. So unless you were in an unusual situation (say fighting in an empty swimming pool) I don't think it would drown anyone. In an extreme situation where a transform of this kind needed to be converted to an attack power to resolve the situation I might allow 1/2 or 1/4 of the active cost to be used (by me, the GM) to construct a power to simulate the situation. For example maybe a very weak TK to simulate the water pushing stuff away from the center of the power as the water dispersed. Long story short if you want to drown people buy an attack power (or change environment), if you want to make a pile of water and hope for the best, use the transform (basically the same advise many people have given already).[/quote']

 

Yes! That's pretty much where I'm coming from. The first and most important question is, "What is the primary purpose of the power?" If it's really meant to be used in combat, it should be built that way. If it's meant to, "create water," then it should be built that way (Transform, probably). If it's not designed as a combat spell, but you want to use it that way, then you're going to have to be pretty careful about how you do it, and think carefully about the circumstances and conditions. Even then it's going to be chancy. If you see it as a common use of the power, maybe it should be a Multipower or something, but in any case it should be discussed with the GM as soon as the possibility is foreseen.

[prestidigitator]

Re: room filled with water

 

So what I am hearing you saying (forgive me if I am putting words in your mouth), is that the question of build is not as simple as "I want to create water" it depends on what the player wants to achieve with the created substance?

 

It seems to me crucial to the discussion with Ragitsu about whether the game needs a create power. I suppose that the answer to that could be yes but it would have to be costed depending on the effects of the substance created...

 

I think my last post above will probably clarify this, but essentially I'd say it isn't always as simple as, "I want to create water." Sometimes it can be, sure, if that's really what you want to do with the power. But you can't really rely on it doing other things unless you're careful about its use and you bribe your GM really well.

[ayinde]

Re: room filled with water

 

makdoc makes a good point so thats the route i'm headed. this is the idea i will just stretch the concept of a base. now a base is any area were a character can take advantage of the lactation only thing i need to add is what I call base environment land(default), Air, water

land: this is the basic and most common environment game rules as written

air: there is no ground to speak of unless paid for characters must be able to fly or glide to make any movement

water: rules as noted for water environment in hero rule book

the bases body stat is used to govern if a base environment can be altered (change environment now needs a attack and effect roll just like mental attacks fully changing a base environment wood require a body x3 effect roll)

 

do you think a house rule like this is a good fix?

[Vondy]

Re: room filled with water

 

makdoc makes a good point so thats the route i'm headed. this is the idea i will just stretch the concept of a base. now a base is any area were a character can take advantage of the lactation only thing i need to add is what I call base environment land(default), Air, water

land: this is the basic and most common environment game rules as written

air: there is no ground to speak of unless paid for characters must be able to fly or glide to make any movement

water: rules as noted for water environment in hero rule book

the bases body stat is used to govern if a base environment can be altered (change environment now needs a attack and effect roll just like mental attacks fully changing a base environment wood require a body x3 effect roll)

 

do you think a house rule like this is a good fix?

 

It lactates?

 

If its a base, I would ask is this a superheroic or heroic level game. In a superheroic game you need to model it and its effects precisely with points. In a heroic game you can purchase the base with money. You still need notes on the effect you want, but you don't need to be overly didactic about costing it or having a thorough write up.

[ayinde]

Re: room filled with water

 

well vondy if it will make you feel better call it a location or turf instead of a base. do you have to pay for a gm story created rock slide in a superhero game? no its part of the plot but could some heroes with the right powers stop the rock slide yes by building a location as you would build a base (well i guess big vehicle really bases don't have body stats) the gm knows how many guards are coming if the building has cameras playes need to avoid or could steel a feed from how good there computers are ect. at a glance. as i see it change environment and mind control achieve similar results on different scales its just me brain storming for a solution but I see your point as well

[Squall]

Re: room filled with water

 

I'm sure I'm about to sound more dickish than I mean to...but seriously, is anyone else having trouble following Ayinde?

[Vondy]

Re: room filled with water

 

well vondy if it will make you feel better....

 

If it makes me feel better? This presumes I would be, in some way, upset.

 

...do you have to pay for a gm story created rock slide in a superhero game? no its part of the plot but could some heroes with the right powers stop the rock slide yes by building a location as you would build a base (well i guess big vehicle really bases don't have body stats) the gm knows how many guards are coming if the building has cameras playes need to avoid or could steel a feed from how good there computers are ect. at a glance. as i see it change environment and mind control achieve similar results on different scales its just me brain storming for a solution but I see your point as well

 

Based on the lead-in question, I don't think you did see my point. A GM has limitless points. He need not cost everything in detail. He can jot down notes and run with whatever effects he wants to model. The bottom line is bottomless for him. This is true irrespective of the heroic/superheroic divide. A player, however, has to keep accounts and balance his character's point totals. In a super-heroic game he has to model every effect precisely, even for bases and vehicles, to do that. One might make an exception for mundane items, but a room that fills up with water isn't "standard." In a heroic game, where much is done with money rather than points, he can be much looser insofar as the GM approves the effects.

[ayinde]

Re: room filled with water

 

my statement wasn't meant to insult you. and if it did my apologies.

to clarify yes a gm has unlimited points to work with that doesn't mean he doesn't need to keep track of them. thats why i brought up the idea of writing up a location like a base. i mean even major villains have write ups don't they? to be strait with you the whole reason of my starting the post was to find a way to alter an environment drastically in this case the area changes from a land environment to a water one with all the changes to the game rules in the 6e book. my major stumbling block is the changes in movement namely water is a 3d environment( if you can swim and every one can by the way). what power will do that some sort of weird use of the fly power? my fix was to make it so with a transform power you could just transform the area to a water environment as defined is the rules and be done with it. but you still need something to meter your effect from

if i change a man into a frog i roll his body right? well what is the body of a room? well if a closet is the size of a zero size vehicle then the transform body is 10 per the book, so if i use the same chart and match my sizes to each other i know how much body any space has do you see my train of thought now?

[ayinde]

Re: room filled with water

 

Squall ya it was a dickish thing to say. but I am sorry I made it hard for you to fallow

[Ice9]

Re: room filled with water

 

There's an interesting point here. On the one hand "build from effect" is generally the way to go in HERO. On the other hand, Transform is an actual power that costs actual points - and in significant numbers; this isn't a vanity/niche perk like Immortal.

So I bought Transform (nonliving solid matter to water) 5d6. That's 75 points. What exactly can I do with this power?

 

Can I drink the water? Can I make holes through walls by turning the masonry into water? Can I put the water in a bucket and throw it on a fire?

If I can't even do those things, it makes no sense. 75 points is not a reasonable amount to spend for "flavor text" that has no mechanical effect. And yet, those are all things that could be covered by other powers.

 

But let's say that yes, we can do that. Then it gets trickier:

Can I turn someone's weapon or armor into water? Can I short circuit electrical equipment? Can I combine it with a teammate's Barrier and drown people?

 

 

On the one hand, we don't want Transform to be a "do everything" power. But making it a "do nothing" power is equally unacceptable. And the line between "appropriate related effects" and "super effective secondary powers" is not always clear cut, much less something that makes any IC sense. Really, it seems like there's two ways to go:

 

1) Explicitly allow Transform to have secondary effects, even those that duplicate powers. Have some kind of guideline on what effects are suitable at a given value of Transform - maybe up to half the AP?

2) Price any Transform like this one as a "Niche Transform" at a cost of 5 points or so (total, not per die). "Transform foes to mice" would still be full cost though.