DC Guidelines versus DEF Guidelines

[FreeDice]

Looking at the Character Ability Guidelines from page 35 of 6E1, and using the Very Powerful Heroic guides (for example) it says that the average DC of an attack will be 5-10, and the average DEF will be 8-12.

 

Assuming an average attack of 8 DCs, and an average total DEF of 10 (say, 5 PD plus 5rPD, same for ED/rED), most characters will be stunned almost every time they get hit.

 

8 DC x 3.5 (average roll) = 28 STUN on a Normal Damage Roll. With 10 PD versus STUN, that means a character would take 18 STUN from an attack. That means a character needs an 18 CON or higher to avoid getting Stunned with an average attack.

 

That seems a little extreme. What math / campaign decisions am I missing? What am I doing wrong?

[Greywind]

Re: DC Guidelines versus DEF Guidelines

 

Some characters do go outside the average.

[Rapier]

Re: DC Guidelines versus DEF Guidelines

 

My current campaign is Heroic so the average attack is coming in around 7 DCs. The players have about 15 DEF so they won't be Stunned on an average roll.

 

Take a look at p48. That was what I used to determine my targets.

 

I think you are correct that those values are rather low.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: DC Guidelines versus DEF Guidelines

 

Looking at the Character Ability Guidelines from page 35 of 6E1' date=' and using the [i']Very Powerful Heroic[/i] guides (for example) it says that the average DC of an attack will be 5-10, and the average DEF will be 8-12.

 

Assuming an average attack of 8 DCs, and an average total DEF of 10 (say, 5 PD plus 5rPD, same for ED/rED), most characters will be stunned almost every time they get hit.

 

8 DC x 3.5 (average roll) = 28 STUN on a Normal Damage Roll. With 10 PD versus STUN, that means a character would take 18 STUN from an attack. That means a character needs an 18 CON or higher to avoid getting Stunned with an average attack.

 

A character with 10 DEF and 18+ CON seems to me to be not too far out of line for a Very Powerful Heroic game.

[FreeDice]

Re: DC Guidelines versus DEF Guidelines

 

A character with 10 DEF and 18+ CON seems to me to be not too far out of line for a Very Powerful Heroic game.

 

I agree - I'm not saying it's out of line. In a Very Powerful Heroic game, I would certainly expect to see some 10 DEF, 18+ CON characters. In a Very Powerful Heroic Fantasy HERO Game, I'd expect fighters and paladins and clerics, even rogues and rangers, to be in that range.

 

But a Rogue might have a 10 DEF and a 17 CON. Respectable numbers, overall. And yet, the average attack rolling an average number of STUN, would Stun the character. To me, playing a character like that, means that half the time I get hit I get stunned. That seems... odd.

 

I can do it with the other tiers, as well. A Standard Heroic character, with an average total PD of 8, gets hit with an average attack doing 5.5 DC (I know DCs can't be halved, but I'm trying to do some long term averages). 5.5 DCs x 3.5 average STUN = 19 STUN and change. That means that any character with a CON of 10 or less will be Stunned more often than not. I recognize that plenty of characters will have higher CON values, but many won't. If you're not planning on being in the forefront of combat, you may want to save those points for magic or for sniper skills or whatever. And then, when you do get hit, half the time or more you have to spend an action to Recover from being Stunned.

 

I realize that there are optional rules in the 6E2, but I'm just surprised the values in the toolkit "as is" come out to characters being Stunned half the time.

[torchwolf]

Re: DC Guidelines versus DEF Guidelines

 

Yes, the DEF numbers seem to be on the low side.

In Heroic campaigns you'd usually get equipment for free though, which in fantasy campaigns would amount to 1-8 additional rDEF while it is worn, making those balances more reasonable. Also, I'm not sure if Combat Luck (which a Rogue character would often possess) is included in these comparisons.

 

EDIT: An rDef of 5-8 is listed on the same line, so I was mostly wasting valuable forum space above.

[JmOz]

Re: DC Guidelines versus DEF Guidelines

 

I've seen few characteers in heroic games without at least a CON of 13, admitingly that was more for figured bonuses, but that is my experience. However, yes defence is lower than I feel it should be. As a guideline I have used for a long time:

 

Heroic games Defence should equal aprox 1-2 times the DC, while in Super heroic it should equal 2-3 times

[FreeDice]

Re: DC Guidelines versus DEF Guidelines

 

In Heroic campaigns you'd usually get equipment for free though' date=' which in fantasy campaigns would amount to 1-8 additional rDEF while it is worn, making those balances more reasonable.[/quote']

 

Wait, am I supposed to be adding the DEF and the rDEF together? (Adding them in the Guidelines. I know how to add them in combat.)

[torchwolf]

Re: DC Guidelines versus DEF Guidelines

 

Wait' date=' am I supposed to be adding the DEF and the rDEF together? (Adding them in the Guidelines. I know how to add them in combat.)[/quote']

No, the rDEF is listed separately as the proportion of Defenses that would on average be Resistant (useful to evaluate survivability vs Killing Attacks). I'll edit my post above, since I was speculating without looking up the numbers listed.

 

Like others have noted, your observations are correct, and the approximations JmOz mentions are the ones most Hero GMs would use, but to get the exact numbers you need for any campaign you should consider 6E2 280-286.

 

In this case especially, "Defenses versus Damage Class" (6E2 285-286) discusses this exact issue and suggests 2-3 Def per DC for most campaigns.

 

Using the guidelines for campaign averages would probably alter the way combat runs, as characters would focus more on avoiding getting hit.

[bobooton]

Re: DC Guidelines versus DEF Guidelines

 

I loves me some game balance, so I tend to take a little more complicated route. First I look at the likelihood of hitting a given DCV (say, 8). Then I look at average STUN against a standardized DEF (say, 20). Multiply the probability of hitting by average damage to get a probable damage/attack figure. Multiply that by SPD and you get my preferred balaccing calculation/"Rule of X".

 

So an OCV 8 (62.5% chance to hit), DC 10 (15 avg STUN), SPD 5 character would have a "Rule of X" figure of 46.875. I tend to look for something around 50 in a game like that, so this would be fine.

[FreeDice]

Re: DC Guidelines versus DEF Guidelines

 

I loves me some game balance, so I tend to take a little more complicated route. First I look at the likelihood of hitting a given DCV (say, 8). Then I look at average STUN against a standardized DEF (say, 20). Multiply the probability of hitting by average damage to get a probable damage/attack figure. Multiply that by SPD and you get my preferred balaccing calculation/"Rule of X".

 

So an OCV 8 (62.5% chance to hit), DC 10 (15 avg STUN), SPD 5 character would have a "Rule of X" figure of 46.875. I tend to look for something around 50 in a game like that, so this would be fine.

 

Followed the math. But. How do you figure when the DCV/DEF changes? How did you come up with an 8 OCV/DC 10? Why not an 11 OCV, DC 12, SPD 5? (90.74% x 22 = 99)?

 

I'm just curious - do you define the average DCV/DEF and make the Rule of X fit that?

 

Thanks.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: DC Guidelines versus DEF Guidelines

 

Based on the campaigns average DC value, the Average Resistant Defense should be equal to the DC average. Total Defense should be about double the Resistant.

[Utech]

Re: DC Guidelines versus DEF Guidelines

 

Horses for courses. The guidelines support a game in which it is a good idea for most characters to avoid being hit.

 

One of the great things about HERO is that you can fiddle with the numbers just a little and vastly change the sort of gaming experience you and your players enjoy.

 

• Up average DCs without changing the average DEF and you get a game where Dodging, Blocking, Diving for Cover, using the environment, surprise attacks, striking first, and working together are essential to success. Fate is unkind, so players need to get creative and have a healthy respect for their opponents.
  
• Up average DEF without changing the average DCs and you get a game of counter-punching and toe-to-toe slugfests are more the norm. A surprise attack probably won't end your character, so players are less paranoid and more apt to plunge into adventure.
  

 

There's more to it than that, of course. But working out the numbers so they fit your play style is essential. And not really all that hard.

 

It's not my thing, but I wonder if anyone is interested in crunching numbers for different ratios and correlate that information with how it impacts gameplay?

[Beast]

Re: DC Guidelines versus DEF Guidelines

 

you could go low in say DCV to be a bit higher in Def

also when possible do not stand in the open during a gunfight,get cover smaller target to hit(ups your DCV )or they have to shoot through your cover(more def)

using the battle field to your advantage means using your brain

 

you have foes pinned behind a wall, but they may have others coming to help

shooting out the legs of the water tower either crush them or sweep them out in to the open changes the terrain

why fight dumb when you can fight smart

the game dynamic also changes as combat can be quick and deadly

so you may have to ask your self

"Do I really want to start a fight?"

[dmjalund]

Re: DC Guidelines versus DEF Guidelines

 

Do you feel lucky? Well do ya punk?

[Fearghus]

Re: DC Guidelines versus DEF Guidelines

 

I don't know about the rest of you but I tend to buy up non-resistant defense as well as resistant defense to soak up the stun. Maybe that average number in the book is only reflecting the resistant defense total not the defense total. If you are fairly certain you won't be facing an attack that is more that 10-12 DC then there is not much point in spending the extra points on resistant defense beyond 12-14. After that I buy normal defense... it's cheaper and I might safe enough points for an extra CSL or two.

[bobooton]

Re: DC Guidelines versus DEF Guidelines

 

Followed the math. But. How do you figure when the DCV/DEF changes? How did you come up with an 8 OCV/DC 10? Why not an 11 OCV, DC 12, SPD 5? (90.74% x 22 = 99)?

 

I'm just curious - do you define the average DCV/DEF and make the Rule of X fit that?

 

Thanks.

 

The DCV and DEF are standardized figures, used in all cases to get an idea of how the character fits into the game. If the game standard changes, then you'd change the target number. If you're balacing at the individual level, then you can bring specifics into play. I usually only do this for mastermind fights where it pays to know expected damage for an entire group of heroes attacking a single target.

 

It still completely ignores defenses, which are the other half of combat. You could work out a similar formula for defenses, I guess. Maybe OCV 8 & DC 10 vs. DCV & DEF?

[BeZurKur]

Re: DC Guidelines versus DEF Guidelines

 

The guidelines support a game in which it is a good idea for most characters to avoid being hit.

 

One of the great things about HERO is that you can fiddle with the numbers just a little and vastly change the sort of gaming experience you and your players But working out the numbers so they fit your play style is essential. And not really all that hard.

 

QFT

 

Those tables are exactly what they claim to be: guidelines. You clearly have a grasp of the logic and the expectation for your game. Modify the chart to suit your game.