Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

[Palmate]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

I completely see the point being made regarding the power struggle between spell casters and non-spell casters; A consideration I have not heard mentioned is that while a caster can do this and that with a spell vs. a crossbow, those are point the caster is spending not on skills or skill levels, I have consistently seen in the heroic games a wizard that can do a ton of stuff (though most of the time limitations are placed regarding how new spells are learned, what the roll is to cast, cost to maintain, etc) where as the non caster tends to focus as well a few skills here and there, but combat levels with sword or crossbow makes the non-caster just as devastating...

Its a tool kit, it is going to be up to the GM to place reasonable limits to maintain a balance. Magic should not be cheap - unless everyone has it.

Palmate

[Blorn]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

This question has been weighing on me as well. I've been playing a fantasy campaign using the 5th edition Turakian Age magic system (divide by 3)... and it seems to work to an extent. But, the only non-spellcaster in the group (a rogue) feels way underpowered... and in practice, is underpowered. I made up for this by allowing her to find a relatively powerful magic sword to compensate and making sure that there are situations where she can shine (traps, locks, stealing, etc.)... but this seems like a temporary fix.

 

I've looked into the 4E D&D system ( ... I know, blasphemy) for some possible ideas. (Don't worry, Hero System is sooooo much better than D&D, IMO, I'm not switching sides)... But, I like how in 4E D&D, the martial characters have ways to make them something other than sword swinging 2dk meat-shields. Some one above mentioned allowing the martial characters to have Multipowers and such like the spellcasters... drains, entangles, etc. I like this idea.

 

It's all about balancing issues while keeping the flexibility of the Hero System. I'm thinking of going to a VPP but only for spells that the spellcaster has familiarity (1 pt.) Casting spells on the fly might not be impossible, but it would be more difficult and/or cost extra time and energy (END).

 

If I remember, Killershrike had a ton of magic systems on his website that you may get some ideas from, but none of them seemed exactly what I wanted. I was thinking of a relatively low magic setting in mind... like a Kingdoms of Kalamar conversion, but this may be more in how common it is... players would obviously be the exception.

[dmjalund]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

I suggest you put together a list of player character spells, and see how they compare with non magical abilities.

[Markdoc]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

This question has been weighing on me as well. I've been playing a fantasy campaign using the 5th edition Turakian Age magic system (divide by 3)... and it seems to work to an extent. But' date=' the only non-spellcaster in the group (a rogue) feels way underpowered... and in practice, is underpowered. I made up for this by allowing her to find a relatively powerful magic sword to compensate and making sure that there are situations where she can shine (traps, locks, stealing, etc.)... but this seems like a temporary fix.[/quote']

 

It is a temporary fix: every game we've played where magic is cheap and easy has ended up with all significant characters (PC and NPC) being magic-users. Eventually the rogue is either going to have to retire, or take up magic.

 

I've looked into the 4E D&D system ( ... I know' date=' blasphemy) for some possible ideas. (Don't worry, Hero System is sooooo much better than D&D, IMO, I'm not switching sides)... But, I like how in 4E D&D, the martial characters have ways to make them something other than sword swinging 2dk meat-shields. Some one above mentioned allowing the martial characters to have Multipowers and such like the spellcasters... drains, entangles, etc. I like this idea.[/quote']

 

I like it too - in fact, I have implemented it in all my FH games for a couple of decades now, without problems. You could easily allow your rogue to keep up by suggesting he gets a "stealth access multipower" of superskills, or something similar.

One helpful hint: I require power frameworks to have a reasonably tight description to prevent blandness - ie: the idea that every character has to have forcefield, flight and some magical ranged attack. Thus, I think the mages also should not have a "magic" multipower into which any power can be dropped, but have more thematic magic - different styles, so to speak.

 

cheers, Mark

[Blorn]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

I don't want to highjack the post, but I do have a question. Let's say you have a MP magic system... how can you simulate casting things on the fly with this system? What I envision is a wizard finding a spell book (this would give him access to spending experience points on spells that are not already known, as long as he has the appropriate MP special effect, or to start a MP for a different type of magic)... but suppose I want him to be able to cast a spell from said book to close a rift or give the party some defense against a demon they are about to face, etc... would I just make the spell independent (like a scroll) or would it work with a Power skill roll? (I may have answered my own question, but would like to hear what you think.)

 

Back on topic, would the cost of a MP magic system be balanced with said fighter with a sword?

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

I'm going to post two of my FH Characters (5E)

 

First, a Wizard:

 

 

 

Piter Reiderube

 

Player:

 

Val Char Cost

7 STR -3

13 DEX 9

12 CON 4

8 BODY -4

18 INT 8

18 EGO 16

13 PRE 3

8 COM -1

 

3/15 PD 2

5/17 ED 3

3 SPD 7

5 REC 4

28 END 2

20 STUN 2

 

6" RUN 0

2" SWIM 0

1" LEAP 0

Characteristics Cost: 52

 

Cost Power

18 Spellbook: Multipower, 32-point reserve, (32 Active Points); all slots Requires A Skill Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4) [Notes: All spells must be bought with a minimum of -1 in limitations, chosen from: Gestures, Concentration, Incantation, Extra Time, Focus, Increased Indurance Cost, or Side Effects.]

1u 1) Entrapping Animation: Entangle 3d6, 3 DEF (Larger Wall (+1")) (32 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4), Increased Endurance Cost (2x END; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Only works if there are 'things' available to entangle the target. These things can be plants, furniture, clothing, any relatively loose object which can be manipulated to tie up or hinder the target. Power does not work in Uncommon Circumstances (-1/4)

1u 2) Aegis of Force: Force Field (12 PD/12 ED), 3 Continuing Charges lasting 20 Minutes each (+0), Hardened (+1/4) (30 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Limited Power Only against attacks caster can perceive (-1/4)

1u 3) Shroud of Steam: Change Environment (Obscuring Mist) 4" radius, -6 to Hearing Group PER Rolls (30 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4), IIF Expendable (Focus (Vial of Prepared Water); Difficult to obtain new Focus; -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

1u 4) Menomic's Obfuscation: +5 with DCV, Usable By Other (+1/4) (31 Active Points); 1 Continuing Charge lasting 1 Turn (-1 1/4), Requires A Skill Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4), Incantations (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate Constant or Persistent Power, -1/4), Costs Endurance (Only Costs END to Activate; -1/4), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4)

1u 5) Lingual Expanse: Universal Translator 23- (30 Active Points); Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (0 DCV; -1), Requires A Skill Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4)

1u 6) Leemobi's Lesser Levitation: Telekinesis (13 STR), Fine Manipulation (30 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Incantations (Requires Incantations throughout; -1/2)

1u 7) Animation of Aether: Summon 2 50-point "Unseen Servant", Slavishly Devoted (+1) (30 Active Points); Extra Time (1 Turn (Post-Segment 12), Only to Activate Constant or Persistent Power, Character May Take No Other Actions, -3/4), Requires A Skill Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4), Incantations (-1/4) [Notes: Summons 2 Air Constructs. Though they can be commanded to attack, they are more often used as helping hands.]

1u 8) Nimm's Distracting Display: Sight and Hearing Groups Images Increases Size (2" radius; +1/4), Variable Advantage (+1/2 Advantages; Limited Group of Advantages; +3/4) (30 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Extra Time (Full Phase, Only to Activate Constant or Persistent Power, -1/4) [Notes: Variable: Can choose from uncontrolled, delayed effect, difficult to dispell, time delay or trigger.]

1u 9) Magelight: Sight Group Images Increases Size (4" radius; +1/2), Normal Sight only, Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (10 Active Points); Only To Create Light (-1), OAF (Focus: Any hand held object.; -1), Requires A Skill Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4)

1u 10) Blinding Luminance: Sight Group Flash 2d6 (10 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), Increased Endurance Cost (2x END; -1/2)

1u 11) Bounce: Leaping 20" (Accurate, Position Shift) (30 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4), Increased Endurance Cost (2x END; -1/2), Concentration (0 DCV; -1/2), No Noncombat Movement (-1/4)

1u 12) Analyze Dweomer: Detect Magic A Class Of Things 16- (Unusual Group), Discriminatory, Analyze, Sense (20 Active Points); Extra Time (6 Hours, Detect is instant, Descriminatory and Analyze can take up to 6 Hours, Character May Take No Other Actions, -2), Requires A Skill Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4)

1u 13) Scry: Clairsentience (Hearing Group), x4 Range (400") (30 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4), Concentration, Must Concentrate throughout use of Constant Power (1/2 DCV; -1/2), IIF (Focus (Some transparent object or reflective surface); -1/4), Extra Time (Delayed Phase, Only to Activate Constant or Persistent Power, Character May Take No Other Actions, -1/4)

1u 14) Chronotic Discord: Drain SPD 3d6 (30 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4), Limited Power Power loses about a third of its effectiveness (-1/2), Extra Time (Full Phase, -1/2), Gestures (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4) [Notes: Limited: Only works on humanoid creatures.]

1u 15) Web: Entangle 2 1/2d6, 2 DEF, Entangle And Character Both Take Damage (+1/4) (31 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4), Vulnerable (Fire; -1/2), Extra Time (Extra Segment, -1/2), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4)

1u 16) Command: Mind Control 6d6 (30 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4), Stops Working If Mentalist Is Stunned (-1/2), Concentration (1/2 DCV; -1/4), Incantations (-1/4)

1u 17) Jolt: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6 (30 Active Points); Requires A Skill Roll (RSR Skill is subject to Skill vs. Skill contests; -3/4), No Knockback (-1/4), Incantations (-1/4), Gestures (-1/4), Extra Time (Delayed Phase, -1/4)

Powers Cost: 35

 

 

Cost Skill

3 Analyze: Magic 13-

0 Breakfall 8-

1 Bribery 8-

1 Bureaucratics 8-

0 Climbing 8-

0 Concealment 8-

5 Cramming

3 Cryptography 13-

3 Deduction 13-

1 Forensic Medicine 8-

3 Inventor (Create Magic Items) 13-

3 KS: Arcane Lore 13-

3 KS: Ancient History 13-

2 AK: Liramor & surrounding area 11-

3 Language: Telosian (fluent conversation; literate)

3 Navigation (Land, Marine) 13-

1 Paramedics 8-

1 Riding 8-

2 SS: Herbalism 11-

3 SS: Alchemy 13-

3 Sleight Of Hand 12-

1 Trading 8-

2 WF: Common Melee Weapons

 

7 Spellcraft 15-

5 +1 with Magic Combat

Skills Cost: 59

 

 

Cost Talent

4 Speed Reading (x10)

Talents Cost: 4

 

Total Character Cost: 150

 

Pts. Disadvantage

10 Social Limitation: Member of Sorcerat Society (Occasionally, Major)

15 Psychological Limitation: Power Hungry: (Uncommon, Total)

15 Psychological Limitation: Pompous Asshole: (Very Common, Moderate)

10 Reputation: , 14- (Only in Liramor)

Disadvantage Points: 50

Base Points: 100

Experience Required: 0

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

 

 

 

And now the Fighter:

 

 

 

 

Player:

 

Val Char Cost

18 STR 8

13 DEX 9

13 CON 6

12 BODY 4

8 INT -2

10 EGO 0

10 PRE 0

10 COM 0

 

5/10 PD 1

5/10 ED 2

3 SPD 7

8 REC 2

30 END 2

35 STUN 7

 

6" RUN 0

2" SWIM 0

3 1/2" LEAP 0

Characteristics Cost: 46

 

 

Cost Martial Arts Maneuver

4 Counterstrike: 1/2 Phase, +2 OCV, +2 DCV, Weapon +2 DC Strike, Must Follow Block

5 Defensive Block: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +3 DCV, Block, Abort

4 Martial Disarm: 1/2 Phase, -1 OCV, +1 DCV, Disarm; 28 STR to Disarm roll

5 Offensive Strike: 1/2 Phase, -2 OCV, +1 DCV, Weapon +4 DC Strike

4 Weapon Bind: 1/2 Phase, +1 OCV, +0 DCV, Bind, 28 STR

Martial Arts Cost: 22

 

Cost Skill

3 Breakfall 12-

3 Climbing 12-

3 Concealment 11-

0 Deduction 8-

3 Defense Maneuver I

3 Fast Draw 12-

3 Riding 12-

3 Shadowing 11-

3 Stealth 12-

3 Streetwise 11-

4 Survival (Temperate/Subtropical, Mountain) 11-

3 Tactics 11-

10 Two-Weapon Fighting (HTH)

7 WF: Common Melee Weapons, Common Missile Weapons, Flails, Lances, Off Hand

3 Weaponsmith (Muscle-Powered HTH, Muscle-Powered Ranged) 11-

 

10 +2 with HTH Combat

6 +2 with Martial Maneuvers

3 Penalty Skill Levels: +2 vs. armor penalties to DCV with a single attack

3 Penalty Skill Levels: +2 vs. Hit Location modifiers with a single attack

Skills Cost: 76

 

 

Cost Talent

3 Ambidexterity (-2 Off Hand penalty)

3 Lightning Reflexes: +2 DEX to act first with All Actions

Talents Cost: 6

 

Cost Equipment (Equipment costs do not actually figure in Total Cost. They are included here for reference only.)

Longsword: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1 1/2d6 (25 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), STR Minimum 1-5 (-1/4)

Main Gauche: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6, Armor Piercing (+1/2) (22 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (-1), Real Weapon (-1/4), STR Minimum 1-5 (-1/4)

Chain Hauberk: Armor (5 PD/5 ED) (15 Active Points); Independent (-2), Full Coverage Helmet, Long Jacket, High Boots (Protects Locations 3-5, 9-14, 16-18; -3/4), Ablative BODY Only (-1/2), OIF (-1/2), Real Armor (-1/4)

Crossbow: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6+1, 16 Recoverable Charges (+1/2), Armor Piercing (+1/2) (40 Active Points); Independent (-2), OAF (-1), STR Minimum 6-14 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), Beam (-1/4), Cannot Be Used With Multiple-Power Attacks (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4)

Total Character Cost: 150

 

Pts. Disadvantage

15 Hunted: 11- (Mo Pow, NCI, Watching)

5 Reputation: , 8-

20 Psychological Limitation: Arrogant: (Very Common, Strong)

Disadvantage Points: 40

Base Points: 100

Experience Required: 10

Total Experience Available: 0

Experience Unspent: 0

 

 

 

(Following post to analyze)

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

The Wizard in question only has a single attack; A 2d6 RKA which requires several of the usual limitations, and extra time to boot (my magic system heavily favors extra time for higher-cost spells.) He then has two Entangles, a Force Field, the Animation spell (2 50 point critters), a Flash, the +DCV, the Obscuring Mist, and a Speed drain as 'combat powers."

 

The Fighter has two-weapon fighting, allowing him to do a sweep that is 1.5d6K + STR (2d6+1k if my math is right), plus 1d6k + STR AP (1.5d6k if math is right). He then has a 1d6+1k AP ranged attack. And 5/5 Armor (sectional.)

 

Yes, the wizard is more versatile. But, his stronger armor only lasts so long, he has less CSL's for combat (CV 5 + 1 CSL vs. CV 5 + 4 CSL), no martial maneuvers, etc. He has to make a skill roll and an attack roll, with lower CV, and no CSL's to raise damage, for any attack. Plus he is concentrating or otherwise vulnerable to disruption when casting any spell, and has way less BODY, END, STUN, etc.

 

Like I said; I have never really had an issue with spellcasters being more powerful than non-casters.

[Markdoc]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

First off, they are both quite nice characters

 

But looking at those two characters, the wizard is going to clean the fighter's clock, if he has the brains god gave to goats. His forcefield gives excellent protection to the fighter's ranged attack and gives him decent protection against his HTH attacks, he has a mental attack which should give him a significant edge in misdirection (and it's an easy hit at any range) even if he can't completely dominate the fighter. He's faster (in terms of movement) so he should be able to keep his distance in combat and reach places where the fighter can't get to him - and with the use of one spell, he ends up with a ranged DCV far superior to his opponent. He can blind him with Flash and then head shot him with his RKA, he can entangle him in his own armour or clothes and use the time to move away or just drain his speed down to nothing while he's fighting his way out (the entangle won't protect against a drain). He can entangle him and then lift the helplessly entangled fighter high into the air long before he can tear his way free .... The mage doesn't have one attack - he has 8! In fact he has a lot of combat options and they are all good - plus he has options for escape, should he need it. The fighter is powerful close up, but at range his CV is going to end up far worse than the wizard's, so he's going to be wearing a lot of hits . At range, even the wizard's standard zap does more damage - and the light crossbow puts the poor old fighter at half DCV and takes a full phase to reload! Sure, the wizard will run out of END, but the fighter will probably be long dead by then.

 

No question, the wizard is a far more powerful and flexible combatant. He's weak in HTH, and I like the fact that his spells have extra time (it reinforces the fact that he's no HTH combatant) but the fighter really has to be able to ambush him in a location where he can't escape, to have a good chance. Plus the wizard is far more flexible generally: no question he's a more useful/powerful character.

 

And these guys are just starting out. For the fighter to get +1 to hit is going to cost him three points. The wizard gets 3 more spells of this level for that cost. In just a few adventures the wizard will have increased his versatility and usefulness significantly, while the fighter will have changed slightly, if at all.

 

You're kind of making my point here. The wizard is a highly effective combatant, who can do a lot of other cool stuff. The fighter is just as effective in HTH combat - and that's it.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

I don't want to highjack the post' date=' but I do have a question. Let's say you have a MP magic system... how can you simulate casting things on the fly with this system? What I envision is a wizard finding a spell book (this would give him access to spending experience points on spells that are not already known, as long as he has the appropriate MP special effect, or to start a MP for a different type of magic)... but suppose I want him to be able to cast a spell from said book to close a rift or give the party some defense against a demon they are about to face, etc... would I just make the spell independent (like a scroll) or would it work with a Power skill roll? (I may have answered my own question, but would like to hear what you think.)[/quote']

 

It depends on how you set your magic system up.

 

For one of my magic systems, spellbooks are an essential focus and they are independant. If you steal a mage's spellbooks, he is hosed, because he only has the spells he has memorized and once expended he can't replace them (the system uses trigger for memorized spells). The flip side of this is a) the limitation makes mages able to muster more raw power and anyone can cast a spell out of a book if they have the necessary skill roll (or even if they don't, though in that case bad things will probably ensue). The two options you mention would also work.

 

Back on topic' date=' would the cost of a MP magic system be balanced with said fighter with a sword?[/quote']

 

In general, mages still have something of an edge simply because magic allows you to do so many things. However, in practice allowing a fighter to have a "fighting tricks multipower" for example, greatly expands his options in combat and narrows that gap down enormously.

 

Let's take an example: as I noted above using Kraven Kor's example, the wizard is a far superior combatant at range and he has misdirection spells and superior movement, allowing him to keep that range open in most cases. He can do this because he has a multipower, giving him access to a wide range of powers at low cost.

The fighter is good in HTH, but against the wizard (or a similar foe) he must close the range to have any chance, and it's hard for him to do that - he has less movement, and a relatively poor DCV in ranged combat.

Let's rebuild him using a multipower, but sticking as close to the original concept as we can (a relatively lightly armoured fighter who fights with two swords in a martial arts style).

 

First off, the martial arts have got to go: that saves 22 points. Two weapon fighting goes, that saves another 10. Leave everything else alone except the two CSL with martial arts - change them to 2 CSL with swords (tight group).

We replace that with a martial arts multipower - let's call it "Swift Sword style"

 

21 ..... Swift Sword style: Multipower, 37-point reserve, (37 Active Points); all slots OIF (Focus: sword of opportunity; -½), Real Weapon (-¼)

1u ..... 1) Counterstrike - armed: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6+1 (2d6 w/STR), Reduced Endurance (½ END; +¼), Damage Shield (+½) (35 Active Points); Only on successful Block (-½), OIF (Focus: sword of opportunity; -½), Real Weapon (-¼) END: 1

1u ..... 2) Defensive Block: +1 OCV, +3 DCV when Blocking (20 Active Points); OIF (Focus: sword of opportunity; -½), Real Weapon (-¼)

1u ..... 3) Martial Disarm: +25 STR (+1 DCV), Reduced Endurance (½ END; +¼) (37 Active Points); Only to Disarm (-2), No Figured Characteristics (-½), OIF (Focus: sword of opportunity; -½), Side Effects (-1 OCV; -¼), Real Weapon (-¼) END: 1

1u ..... 4) Weapon Bind: +24 STR (+1 OCV), Reduced Endurance (½ END; +¼) (36 Active Points); Only to bind and neutralize opponent's weapon (-1), Must follow Block (-½), No Figured Characteristics (-½), OIF (Focus: sword of opportunity; -½), Real Weapon (-¼) END: 1

2u ..... 5) Offensive Strike: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand + 1 OCV 1 ½d6 (2 ½d6 w/STR) (Custom Adder), Reduced Endurance (½ END; +¼) (37 Active Points); Side Effects (-2 DCV), Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-½), OIF (Focus: sword of opportunity; -½), Real Weapon (-¼) END: 1

1u ..... 6) Two Weapon Sweep: Killing Attack - Hand-To-Hand 1d6+1 (2d6 w/STR), Autofire (5 shots; +½) (30 Active Points); Required Hands Two-Handed (-½), OIF (Focus: sword of opportunity; -½), Real Weapon (-¼) END: 3

1u ..... 7) Swift Sword Block: Missile Deflection (Any Ranged Attack) (20 Active Points); OIF (Focus: sword of opportunity; -½), Real Weapon (-¼)

1u ..... 8) Reckless Sword Charge: Running +15" (21" total), Reduced Endurance (½ END; +¼) (37 Active Points); Side Effects - 2 DCV, Side Effect occurs automatically whenever Power is used (-½), OIF (Focus: sword of opportunity; -½), no Noncombat movement (-¼), Real Weapon (-¼) END: 1

1u ..... 9) Faster than Thought: +4 to Dex roll, over with Dive for Cover: Leaping +6" (9 1/2" forward, 4 1/2" upward) (Custom Adder), Trigger (Activating the Trigger is an Action that takes no time, Trigger resets automatically, immediately after it activates; +1) (36 Active Points); OIF (Focus: sword of opportunity; -1/2), no Noncombat movement (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4)

1u ..... 10) Flying Dodge: +4 with DCV (Allows up to a Full Move) (23 Active Points); Not when attacking (-1), OIF (Focus: sword of opportunity; -½), Real Weapon (-¼)

 

The character still has more or less the same in terms of abilities as before - but in addition now has 4 extra abilities: a missile reflection power, a rapid charge ability, and improved dodging. Note that many of these are "GM's approval" since they include CSLs in the multipower, but as a rule of thumb if the number of CSLs do not exceed those attainable through martial arts I generally OK it, the same way I'd allow a "magic missile" spell with a greatly increased OCV. If that does not appeal, you can strip them out and require the player to simply buy levels outside the MP. This build would give him a solid chance against a foe such as the wizard above - in fact in a straight fight, he'd now chew that wizard up. That's fair enough, since the wizard has other non-combat abilities to compensate.

 

The character would play similarly. His ability in HTH combat is not greatly enhanced, though with the ability to reflect missile attacks he has more of a HK action or anime feel: if you don't want that you could drop it back to mundane missile reflection. However his mobility and ability to bring HTH to ranged attackers is greatly enhanced - as long as he has a sword in hand! Without it, he's he same as the original build. He's also more effective in HTH combat against multiple foes since - at the cost of higher END use - he can attack multiple foes without dropping his DCV into the toilet.

 

Importantly - from my point of view - a character like this scales the same way as the wizard does. As the campaign progresses, he can add extra maneuvers cheaply, increase the size of his MP and then scale his maneuvers cheaply or make other changes - he could buy off the focus limitation or the real weapon limitation to make an effective unarmed combatant or one who can smash steel and stone with the force of his blades. From my point of view it is important that characters scale comparably since I like to run (and play in) games that last: my current FH campaign is in it's 4th year) and if characters scale differently, the disparities become glaring over time. It's more player to player disparity I am concerned with: the gM can always build to any points total he likes.

 

cheers, Mark

[Old Man]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

And these guys are just starting out. For the fighter to get +1 to hit is going to cost him three points. The wizard gets 3 more spells of this level for that cost. In just a few adventures the wizard will have increased his versatility and usefulness significantly, while the fighter will have changed slightly, if at all.

 

This is exactly why I always hated multipowers as the framework for FH magic. At 18 slots, this mage has half the powers in the powers list, and he's just starting out. And he clearly was not built by a munchkin.* Put Aids in three of those slots and the mage can do everything the fighter can, given a couple of phases to prep. Giving the fighter a multipower isn't going to fix much either; he's still only going to have access to 1/4 of the available powers, at most. The mage/fighter balance in FH is one of versatility vs. specialization. The fighter will never have access to the powers that the mage does, so it's important to cost the mage appropriately.

 

I've come to the conclusion that multipowers are a really bad idea in FH. They're too cheap and too easy to minimax, and that makes the characters that have them (usually mages) superior in almost every way to the ones that don't. Sure, buying Aids and RKAs and whatnot is more expensive than just buying a weapon familiarity and some STR--unless you're giving a 90% cost break to the Aids and RKAs. I'd push for ECs here again, only they don't exist any more. It's too bad--I've played FH a lot of different ways, and ECs were the most perfect framework for FH spellcasters.

 

 

 

* No heal? No teleport? Why is the flash only 2d6? This guy sprang for an 18 EGO and has only one mental power? And if all the slots must have 1.75 in total limitations, why not go up to 40 points instead of 32? They still only cost one point apiece.

[Markdoc]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

This is exactly why I always hated multipowers as the framework for FH magic. At 18 slots, this mage has half the powers in the powers list, and he's just starting out. And he clearly was not built by a munchkin.* Put Aids in three of those slots and the mage can do everything the fighter can, given a couple of phases to prep. Giving the fighter a multipower isn't going to fix much either; he's still only going to have access to 1/4 of the available powers, at most. The mage/fighter balance in FH is one of versatility vs. specialization. The fighter will never have access to the powers that the mage does, so it's important to cost the mage appropriately.

 

I've come to the conclusion that multipowers are a really bad idea in FH. They're too cheap and too easy to minimax, and that makes the characters that have them (usually mages) superior in almost every way to the ones that don't. Sure, buying Aids and RKAs and whatnot is more expensive than just buying a weapon familiarity and some STR--unless you're giving a 90% cost break to the Aids and RKAs. I'd push for ECs here again, only they don't exist any more. It's too bad--I've played FH a lot of different ways, and ECs were the most perfect framework for FH spellcasters.

 

 

 

* No heal? No teleport? Why is the flash only 2d6? This guy sprang for an 18 EGO and has only one mental power? And if all the slots must have 1.75 in total limitations, why not go up to 40 points instead of 32? They still only cost one point apiece.

 

Well with unified power, you can do most of what you did with ECs.

 

In general, though, I would strongly agree with you, but with the caveat that because the non-mage with a MP is more specialised, that addresses the balance issue to a large extent: the mage can do far more, but in certain situations - like combat - a specialist can outshine them, because they can build the MP to play to that one strength.

 

I also agree you need to hobble mages to some extent to compensate for this flexibility. I address this issue in my games by requiring magic to take certain limitations (For example, all magic requires "Mana" which is equivalent to LTE: so mages can't go 'round lit up like a magical christmas tree with all sorts of buffs 24/7, all magic requires skill rolls so it is rarely 100% reliable, etc). That seems to work pretty well, across a range of power levels and settings.

 

cheers, Mark

[Blorn]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

What about requiring different "schools" of magic that have their own MP? You could limit what powers can be used in a given "school" multipower... Would that help to balance the fighter's MP with a wizards? And, if you are concerned about the wizard having too many of the available powers to starting out... what do you think about requiring magic users to have the power "Magic Aptitude" or similar power? This would limit how many points he would have to spend starting out on spells...

 

I'm loving this discussion since I'm starting a FH campaign soon (gotta get my FH book at GenCon!!!) and really need to flesh out the magic system soon. I'm sure this has been debated many times before, but I appreciate the revitalization of the topic.

 

Oh, one other thought... Divine Magic? Would you use the same/similar system as the wizard? Obviously it would need its own "feel" to it, holy symbol, only if in favor of your god, etc. but would the system be similar?

[mayapuppies]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

Kamarathin uses a VPP for the "wizard" magic system (called Vedra Atharia) but has many limitations based on what Seal your character was born under; which dictates what spells are available (you can't cast a spell from a Seal that is opposite yours), how easy it is to cast (the further along the Seal "spectrum" the more difficult the spells become to cast), and how much END they take to cast (each Seal is attuned to an element and the further along the "spectrum" the spells element is, the more END it costs).

 

Combine that with several story elements that limit the "utility" spells and we have a magic system that is very difficult to unbalance, at least, so far.

 

Followers of one of the so-called "New Faith" religions have an MP for their prayers, that is less restricted than the Atharian system, but still remains difficult to cast.

[Old Man]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

 

In general, though, I would strongly agree with you, but with the caveat that because the non-mage with a MP is more specialised, that addresses the balance issue to a large extent: the mage can do far more, but in certain situations - like combat - a specialist can outshine them, because they can build the MP to play to that one strength.

 

I'm not sure I agree here, I'm afraid. Both these guys have multipowers, but one has access to the entire powers list while the other can only use a small fraction. I don't see what the specialist is supposed to do to 'play to his strength'; there's only so many variations on RKA you can take before you're just wasting slots. He can be marginally more effective at combat than the generalist, I suppose, bu not enough to make up for the lack of versatility.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

A lot depends on how wild you are prepared to let the martial character's abilities become. Can he swing his sword rapidly to deflect incoming arrows, or even spells (missile deflection/bonus DCV/bonus defenses)? Can he fire a hail of arrows pinning the target to the ground, a wall or a tree with arrows (Entangle)? Can he target so precisely he can blind the target with a spray of his own blood from his forehead (Flash) or impair the target (various Drains)? Distract targets from his allies and/or cow them into submission with a display of his martial prowess (bonus PRE attacks right up to Mind Control/Mental Illusion)?

 

Or is he restricted to what his weapon could (at least semi-) realistically accomplish, while magic is unrestricted in its ability to do pretty much anything?

 

In the former case, the balance issue is at least less significant, but martial abilities become pretty wild. In the latter, the only restriction left for spellcasters is the cost.

[Markdoc]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

I'm not sure I agree here' date=' I'm afraid. Both these guys have multipowers, but one has access to the entire powers list while the other can only use a small fraction. I don't see what the specialist is supposed to do to 'play to his strength'; there's only so many variations on RKA you can take before you're just wasting slots. He can be marginally more effective at combat than the generalist, I suppose, bu not enough to make up for the lack of versatility.[/quote']

 

My experience has been that the specialist (for example: the fighter) tends to have fewer slots. You are right, you can only go so far with HKA/RKA. You can add in flash, some movement powers, some defences, but it's still true that you have a more limited pool to draw from. The consequence of that is that they tend to focus outside the MP on things that can leverage that MP (better physical stats and CSLs) and/or that the MP reserve becomes larger than that of the mage - in other words, fewer powers but more active points. In other words, if you add 10 points to your multipower you can add 10 new slots or add 5 points to the reserve and boost the active points in the 5 slots you have.

 

cheers, Mark

[Markdoc]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

What about requiring different "schools" of magic that have their own MP? You could limit what powers can be used in a given "school" multipower... Would that help to balance the fighter's MP with a wizards? And' date=' if you are concerned about the wizard having too many of the available powers to starting out... what do you think about requiring magic users to have the power "Magic Aptitude" or similar power? This would limit how many points he would have to spend starting out on spells...[/quote']

 

I certainly do this: magic use is generally associated with some kind of school or cultural origin and that defines the sort of spells available. For example, in my FH game, one PC recently wanted to learn a "fireball" type spell (in our D20 gam the sorcerer has reached the point where she can cast good sized fireballs ). I gently pointed out that the water-cult she belongs to, doesn't actually teach many fire spells ("not many" in this case, being none.) In addition, in my game, magic users generally have to have a power skill to cast magic ie: almost all magic requires a skill roll. The rationale for that is skill rolls are a minor irritation out of combat, but in stress situations (like combat) they do reduce the reliability of magic, giving mages an incentive to focus on non-combat abilities.

 

Oh' date=' one other thought... Divine Magic? Would you use the same/similar system as the wizard? Obviously it would need its own "feel" to it, holy symbol, only if in favor of your god, etc. but would the system be similar?[/quote']

 

You could use the same system, or you could use a different one - it's entirely up to you. I don't have "divine magic" and "arcane magic" in my game. It's all just magic.

 

cheers, Mark

[Old Man]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

My experience has been that the specialist (for example: the fighter) tends to have fewer slots. You are right, you can only go so far with HKA/RKA. You can add in flash, some movement powers, some defences, but it's still true that you have a more limited pool to draw from. The consequence of that is that they tend to focus outside the MP on things that can leverage that MP (better physical stats and CSLs) and/or that the MP reserve becomes larger than that of the mage - in other words, fewer powers but more active points. In other words, if you add 10 points to your multipower you can add 10 new slots or add 5 points to the reserve and boost the active points in the 5 slots you have.

 

I understand what you're saying, but IMO equalizing the frameworks for both types of characters isn't enough. Again, mages have access to a long list of powers that mundanes can't use or deal with regardless of how specialized they are. Ideally this would be balanced by making those powers awfully expensive, but multipowers have the annoying effect of reducing all power costs to 1 or 2, which throws that balance out the window. When the wizard has twenty 40-point MP slots, it's really not hard for him to be as good or better than the 'specialized' characters around him. Why drop 12 points on Stealth when I can spend 1 point on Invisibility? Why drop 25 points on martial arts when I can spend 3 points on Aids to STR and DEX? Even if we allow rogues and fighters to have MPs as well, the mage still has a huge cost advantage because he can buy powers to do what the mundanes do, only cheaper and better. Unless we give the mundanes access to the entire powers list, which would be really, really weird high fantasy.

 

(Really, this all gets back to one of my bigger complaints about the Universal HERO System, which is that powers are costed totally wrong for fantasy. But multipowers exacerbate the problem.)

[phookz]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

(Really' date=' this all gets back to one of my bigger complaints about the Universal HERO System, which is that powers are costed totally wrong for fantasy. But multipowers exacerbate the problem.)[/quote']

 

I wonder if some of this could be mitigated by imposing rules on what you can do with a Multipower. What if the GM reduced the AP cap for Multipowers? For example, maybe the AP cap is 40 points in a campaign world, so for Multipowers you restrict it to only 30 or even 25 points. Now you pay for the versatility and cheap real cost by knowing that you'll never be able to it the same total cap.

 

I'm not sure this would fix the problems, but it might be worth a shot. I'm in agreement that the sheer versatility of the spellcasting players will outshine specialized characters quickly. In most game systems you counterbalance versatility by reducing the effectiveness of it when compared to specialized characters/power sets.

 

Just a thought.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

Just going to re-visit my Fighter vs. Wizard post...

 

Fighter bursts through door to Wizard's study, Wizard was stashing the McGuffin.

 

Phase 12: Wizard goes first, takes full phase to activate his force field. 3 END, 25/28.

Phase 12: Fighter charges Wizard, doing a Move Through (5.5d6 assuming full 6" Move); Hits, rolls 4,3,1,6,5, and 2 on half (5 BODY, 20 STUN) - Wizard takes 5 STUN. Knockback comes up nil. Fighter takes no damage himself. 3 END (1 to move, 2 from STR), 27/30.

 

Phase 4: Wizard, now with Fighter all up in his business, knows he doesn't want to spend any length of time, so backs up 3" and casts Command (making him 1/2 DCV), as it has no Extra Time. 6d6 Mind Control - 5,1,4,4,3,5 for 22, vs. Fighters EGO 10; Mage commands fighter "Leave Now!" but only really makes Fighter pause (lose an action). 3 END, +1 to move, 4 END - 21/28.

Phase 4: Fighter, suffering from the Command Spell, does nothing, but puts all CSL to DCV.

 

Phase 8: Wizard now backs up another 3" and casts his Animate entangle - and misses. 6 END, 1 to move; 7 END, 14/28.

Phase 8: Fighter charges Wizard again; 5.5d6 Move Through, all CSL to OCV, and hits. This time, 6,6,1,4,5, and 4 on half. 24 STUN, 7 BODY. Wizard takes 9 STUN, down to 4 STUN. Again, no damage to himself. Wizard is at 11 STUN. 3 END (2 for STR, 1 to move); 24/30.

 

Phase 12: Wizard now backs up again, 3", and tries his flash, hits, gets 3 BODY on the Dice, but is 0 DCV. Fighter is Blind. 7 more END gone, 7/28.

Phase 12: Fighter makes PER roll, moves 3", and swings his sword, putting all CSL to OCV. Wizard is still 0 DCV, until the end of this Phase. OCV 5 + 4 CSL's = 9, 1/2 = 5, chooses an Offensive Strike, so OCV 3 vs. DCV 0 = 14 or less. Rolls a 10. Hit. Roll for location, 7, Arm. 2d6+1k; 4,3 - 8 BODY, 16 STUN. Wizard goes down another point of STUN, for 10/20. 3 more END; 21/30.

 

Recoveries. Wizard gets 5 END and STUN; 15/20 STUN, 12/28 END. Fighter gets 8 END, didn't lose any STUN; 29/30 END.

 

Corrected

Phase 3: Wizard tries to cast his SPD Drain, but fails skill check - I rolled a frackin 17. Never did trust these online Dice Rollers . 3 END; 9/28.

Phase 3: Fighter swings (normal strike) but is still blinded. DCV 6, OCV 5, needs a 12-, rolls 14. 2 END, 27/30.

 

(I'll finish this another time, gotta run.)

[phookz]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

Cool stuff, I want to see how it ends.

 

Couple of points, however. You doubled up on Segment 12 at the end. Also - 3 BODY of Flash is 3 segments of Flash, or are you using pre-5E rules for Flash? With 3 segments the Wizard needs to be either going first or even better holding an action until right before the Fighter goes in order to get the Flash off and then be able to benefit from the lower DCV.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

Just going to re-visit my Fighter vs. Wizard post...

 

Fighter bursts through door to Wizard's study, Wizard was stashing the McGuffin.

 

Phase 12: Wizard goes first, takes full phase to activate his force field. 3 END, 25/28.

Phase 12: Fighter charges Wizard, doing a Move Through (5.5d6 assuming full 6" Move); Hits, rolls 4,3,1,6,5, and 2 on half (5 BODY, 20 STUN) - Wizard takes 5 STUN. Knockback comes up nil. Fighter takes no damage himself. 3 END (1 to move, 2 from STR), 27/30.

 

Phase 4: Wizard, now with Fighter all up in his business, knows he doesn't want to spend any length of time, so backs up 3" and casts Command (making him 1/2 DCV), as it has no Extra Time. 6d6 Mind Control - 5,1,4,4,3,5 for 22, vs. Fighters EGO 10; Mage commands fighter "Leave Now!" but only really makes Fighter pause (lose an action). 3 END, +1 to move, 4 END - 21/28.

Phase 4: Fighter, suffering from the Command Spell, does nothing, but puts all CSL to DCV.

 

Why doesn't Wizard back up 3" out the door? His biggest drawback is the enclosed space. Now, he can cast Bounce and leap up to 10" away - probably can't go that far in a building, but far enough down a hall/up or down stairs/out a window that he's out of Fighter's range. Once he gets outside, he can Bounce 20" away at a time, and fire off spells from a decent range, or just escape and come back when he can choose the battlefield and have his attack planned out, force field up, maybe have his Summoned creatures already available as a distraction, etc.? You gave the fighter the dual advantages of tight quarters and the advantage of surprise, and he still is far from an auto win.

[dmjalund]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

I'm surprised you're using Knockback in a Heroic Level

[drunkonduty]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

I've just started a FH game and I'm going with a MP. Since the player playing the wizard is new to the game I designed her character. I've insisted that all the spells in the MP be thematically linked. She's a curse chucker. Her spell list is only 6 spells long at the moment, and all of them take 2-3 uses to be effective. She is, if anything, a bit underpowered. But she has the potential to become very scary indeed. I can't see this character being done any other way to be honest.

[Kraven Kor]

Re: Real Costs for spells and how you handle them?

 

I was just doing my little combat there as a random thing, and to show that, all things being equal, the fighter really does have the upper hand in a straight up fight.

 

Keep in mind, too, that usually the party will have a caster or two and then some fighter types working together against a group of NPC's who may or may not include a spellcaster, and in situations that will favor different tactics and skills.

 

If the Wizard is in his tower and you are on the ground, Wizard has the advantage. If the Wizard is in an enclosed area, and can't easily get out in the open, Fighters have the advantage.

 

The Wizard has less END, less STUN, less BODY, lower CV, and all of his powers require skill rolls and various restrainable actions to activate - incantations, gestures, extra time, expendable foci, etc. So long as the GM is pressing those limitations, the Wizard should not truly "overpower" a similar point, well-built fighter type. Situational advantage can go either way, and what tactics are used can alter that advantage as well.

 

As to a few points:

 

1. Knockback in Heroic games - I use it where appropriate (move through attacks, charges, and non-killing HTH attacks.)

2. Flash Segments - I always did this as phases, which I now realize is a mistake, so in my example I had the fighter blinded for three of his own phases, not just three segments. I've always admitted to being a HACK on rules minutae

3. Why didn't Wizard back up out the door? Dunno, I was just doing a very random thing, and figured that in or outside the door would be just as limiting, and he is trying to keep the fighter from getting the McGuffin