What do speedsters do in 6E?

[randian]

Their classic thing used to be move-bys, preferable multiple. Now that Hand Attack no longer adds to Move-By/Through and DCV is halved doing move-by, the classic no-defense high DCV speedster is, well, dead meat in 6E.

[Grailknight]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

Speedsters use martial manuvers, Passing strike being the main. Actually works out better conceptually for dcv purposes and for adding damage

[bigbywolfe]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

Their classic thing used to be move-bys' date=' preferable multiple. Now that Hand Attack no longer adds to Move-By/Through and DCV is halved doing move-by, the classic no-defense high DCV speedster is, well, dead meat in 6E.[/quote']

 

Instead of buying HA you can buy extra STR, only for speed based attacks, or something like that. Now you can use that for Move-By/Throughs, and standing still as a "super speed puch" or some-such.

[randian]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

Speedsters use martial manuvers' date=' Passing strike being the main.[/quote']

Is that in the new martial arts supplement? I can't find it in 6E1/2.

Actually works out better conceptually for dcv purposes and for adding damage

How so?

[randian]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

Instead of buying HA you can buy extra STR' date=' only for speed based attacks, or something like that. Now you can use that for Move-By/Throughs, and standing still as a "super speed puch" or some-such.[/quote']

That's horribly expensive, Move-By halves your STR as well as your DCV. That's why HA was so popular with 4E/5E speedsters: it wasn't halved. Then again, the Move-By artist was always so very expensive relative to their actual combat effectiveness.

[bigbywolfe]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

That's horribly expensive' date=' Move-By halves your STR as well as your DCV. That's why HA was so popular with 4E/5E speedsters: it wasn't halved. Then again, the Move-By artist was always so very expensive relative to their actual combat effectiveness.[/quote']

It halves STR but adds velocity/5 (in 5E, not sure if that changed in 6E), and reduces the damage taken compared to a Move-Through. The fact that people bought HA, only for move-by/throughs, with as large of a Limitation the GM would let them get away with, is probably why it was removed in 6E. Since HA is basically built as limited STR it didn't make sense for it to be an exception to the rule.

 

Whe do you feel that they were overly expensive? I've never had that problem with speedsters.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

It may also be possible to apply the Weaponmaster Talent to Move-By/Through maneuvers. At 12pts per +3DC's, this would be similar in cost to the HA Power.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

Their classic thing used to be move-bys' date=' preferable multiple. Now that Hand Attack no longer adds to Move-By/Through and DCV is halved doing move-by, the classic no-defense high DCV speedster is, well, dead meat in 6E.[/quote']

 

First off, DCV is not halved by doing a Move By, but by making multiple attacks. The character could buy bonus DCV when doing multiple attacks (which would also be halved) to mitigate or eliminate this drawback. It does not seem unreasonable, to me, that all characters making multiple attacks face the same DCV penalty. Move by was previously an anomaly in this regard, and I'm fine with seeing it made consistent.

 

Second, I note HA doesn't apply to move by or through damage "without the GM's permission". It seems to me that GM permission is approprate for many SFX (and practically, adding to martial maneuvers but not to non-martisal maneuvers would commonly make no sense). A club is noted as an example of HA, and using a weapon in a move by is discussed in the move by description. The example of The Steel Fist also seems appropriate with move bys. The Energy Gauntlets? Maybe not so much (by the way, this example power changes damage from physical to energy, also noted as requiring GM permission). Martial Arts Mastery seems like it would be used with martial arts, not move bys. It might be more appropriate to consider "does not stack with velocity-based damage" to be a -0 or -1/4 limitation on a Hand Attack. I would rule the hand attack is also halved in the move by, but then I would rule the same in prior editions. Move by trades half the usual damage for a velocity adder.

 

The UMA martial maneuvers are also a possibility. However, I believe a Multiple Attack would halve DCV with these as well.

 

The Speedster could also have a Superspeed Punch Hand Attack. Maybe he has 20 STR and +8d6 HA from his superspeed punches, and these do not stack with velocity modifiers. He can still run past several mooks, sttriking each with his 12d6 total HA, without doing a move by, or make 5 attacks on Ankylosaur with the special effect of running around him and striking him repeatedly.

 

There's some "chicken and egg" going on here. If 1st Ed had incorprated a Hand Attack power and a Multiple Attack mechanic, I wonder whether we would even have had the Move By maneuver. Perhaps a better model would be to:

 

- build the "using my velocity to add damage without a Move Through" mechanic as a Hand Attack (possibly even Linked to the movement power)

- use Multiple Attack to make multiple attacks - that's why it's there

- expand Strafe to allow a character to make a HTH or Ranged attack while making a full move (maybe reducing the velocity based OCV penalty, which seems pretty high, to -1 per 12 m or a flat -2, and probably basing the range modifier on the location of the character when he attacks, and removing the prohibition of Multiple Attacks while Strafing). I think Strafe needs to be re-evaluated after it's seen some playtesting anyway.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

OK, now I see Page 71 of 6e2. This indicates:

 

- you can add HA damage to a move by/move through if the GM believes that makes sense based on the SFX of the HA and maneuver. This seems consistent with my comments above.

- HA can be purchased as only working with move by/through, and then works with those maneuvers

- the HA dice are not halved (not sure I agree, conceptually or balance wise), but notes the GM is free to do so if he considers it necessary to maintain game balance

[randian]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

It halves STR but adds velocity/5 (in 5E' date=' not sure if that changed in 6E), and reduces the damage taken compared to a Move-Through. The fact that people bought HA, only for move-by/throughs, with as large of a Limitation the GM would let them get away with, is probably why it was removed in 6E. Since HA is basically built as limited STR it didn't make sense for it to be an exception to the rule.[/quote']

We didn't let speedsters limit HA in that way and they still wanted it, because the alternative (buying 10 STR for every DC when the brick is paying 5 per DC) was too horrible to consider. We'd still allow limitations like Focus, because everybody needs a truncheon. By the way, in 6E it's velocity/10 for move-by and velocity/6 for move-through, just as you'd expect.

Why do you feel that they were overly expensive? I've never had that problem with speedsters.

a) Speedsters buy lots of movement, but that's effectively buying DCs at 10 per when everybody else is paying 5 for theirs.

 

If you can't buy Hand Attack, you're again paying 10 per for the DCs you need beyond that provided by movement.

 

c) Speedsters start 4 CVs down on everybody else, owing to the basic -2/-2 penalty of Move-By that you must take even before multiple targets are considered.

 

d) You need huge amounts of excess movement, far more than the basic tactical condition would warrant were you not a speedster. This is to accommodate two needs: the movement cost of each additional target, at 6" each, and you don't want to be near anybody because you can't take a hit and are too pathetically weak (remember that STR/2, no speedster buys up STR) to escape any entangle or grab. In 6E it's 10m per target even though characters only occupy 1m spaces. Compare that to the mere 4m of Barrier needed to encircle that same target. Area effect attacks seem cheaper, especially in 6E where small areas can be bought cheaply.

 

Remember this is 4E. In 4E, you couldn't multiple move-by with martial maneuvers since you couldn't mix a martial maneuver with a standard maneuver in the same Phase, so martial arts wasn't an option. If I understand Grailknight correctly, he's saying that now you can buy Martial Arts for your speedster. That mitigates a lot of the problems.

 

a) Your STR isn't being halved

You can buy Martial Arts DCs that aren't being halved

c) Martial Maneuvers surely have better base CVs than -2/-2.

 

Under those conditions I can see why you wouldn't think speedsters overpriced.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

a) Speedsters buy lots of movement' date=' but that's effectively buying DCs at 10 per when everybody else is paying 5 for theirs.[/quote']

 

But you're also getting movement, while everyone else is buying their movement and their DC's separately, as they are not optimized for velocity-adding attacks.

 

If you can't buy Hand Attack' date=' you're again paying 10 per for the DCs you need beyond that provided by movement.[/quote']

 

But you're getting it augmented by movement, which the other characters are not.

 

c) Speedsters start 4 CVs down on everybody else' date=' owing to the basic -2/-2 penalty of Move-By that you must take even before multiple targets are considered.[/quote']

 

You're also getting to make a full move in conjunction with your attack. +2 OCV with Move By's costs 4 points, and +2 DCV, only with move by's is probably about 5 more (a -1 limitation).

 

d) You need huge amounts of excess movement' date=' far more than the basic tactical condition would warrant were you not a speedster. This is to accommodate two needs: the movement cost of each additional target, at 6" each, and you don't want to be near anybody because you can't take a hit and are too pathetically weak (remember that STR/2, no speedster buys up STR) to escape any entangle or grab. In 6E it's 10m per target even though characters only occupy 1m spaces. Compare that to the mere 4m of Barrier needed to encircle that same target. Area effect attacks seem cheaper, especially in 6E where small areas can be bought cheaply.[/quote']

 

That extra movement is allowing you to make multiple attacks (other characters have to pay for that privilege too) and allowing you to reduce points paid on defenses, as you want to be a long way away from your attackers. That latter tactic fails miserably, by the way, if the opposition has a grain of tactical sense. "He attacks, then runs away - well, I'll delay my action until he comes back to attack again".

 

It seems like you want to be able to build a speedster who can do the same damage as the other characters, but inflict it multiple times in a single attack, and avoid being injured by counterattacks. I suspect also one that has a significant edge in SPD, but you want those phases available for attacks, not for defensive actions such as Diving for Cover or vibrating into desolid state to avoid AoE attacks. That sounds like a more powerful character - and a more powerful character logically should cost more.

[randian]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

First off' date=' DCV is not halved by doing a Move By, but by making multiple attacks. The character could buy bonus DCV when doing multiple attacks (which would also be halved) to mitigate or eliminate this drawback. It does not seem unreasonable, to me, that all characters making multiple attacks face the same DCV penalty. Move by was previously an anomaly in this regard, and I'm fine with seeing it made consistent.[/quote']

Well, doing multiple move-by is the point, otherwise you're just a 10 STR mook with movement. While taking 1/2 DCV is certainly not unfair in the abstract, it further exacerbates the speedster tax. Now you need even more movement to keep you off the board at the beginning and end of your phase so you don't get murdered on the counterattack. Also, whereas before when the enemy would delay to throw you could have some chance to avoid it even at -2 DCV, whereas at half-1 DCV you're simply toast if somebody decides to throw you.

Second' date=' I note HA doesn't apply to move by or through damage "without the GM's permission".[/quote']

Who else's basic Xd6 attack needs GM permission? HA is no more abusive in a speedster's hands than it would be in a brick's, so long as total DC is in line.

I would rule the hand attack is also halved in the move by, but then I would rule the same in prior editions. Move by trades half the usual damage for a velocity adder.

Er, why? Eliminating every means by which a speedster pays less than 10 points/DC seems unfair. "Trades half usual damage for a velocity adder" is a "so what?" item for me. As GM, why should I care, it's not as if the speedster's d6s are qualitatively different when applied to a target's defenses.

[incrdbil]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

Passing Strike--

1/2 phase action +1 OCV +0 DCV STR damage + v/10, Full Move, 5 points.

 

Best 5 points you'll ever spend on a speedster. Move-by's are obsolete.

[randian]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

That extra movement is allowing you to make multiple attacks (other characters have to pay for that privilege too) and allowing you to reduce points paid on defenses, as you want to be a long way away from your attackers.

More like "can't afford defenses", since as I said movement is a expensive damage mechanic. Basically, it's a sunk cost issue. You've already spent beaucoup points on movement, so you might as well buy more because you don't have the points to buy adequate defense.

That latter tactic fails miserably, by the way, if the opposition has a grain of tactical sense. "He attacks, then runs away - well, I'll delay my action until he comes back to attack again".

Been there, done that, have the throw damage to prove it.

I suspect also one that has a significant edge in SPD, but you want those phases available for attacks, not for defensive actions such as Diving for Cover or vibrating into desolid state to avoid AoE attacks.

Sure I would, but SPD is orthogonal to the issue. Martial artists want to avoid those things too.

 

If you're only buying just enough movement so that you must stay in the thick of things, and have brick-like DCV because you're attacking at half DCV in simulated "move-by" mode, then you must have brick-like defenses to compensate. Basically, you're a low-STR brick who defines his studly PD as "avoids damage at super-speed". Certainly a fine concept SFX-wise, but an entirely different character in terms of game mechanics. Also, there's a reason nobody makes low-STR+HA characters with low DCV: you're totally screwed by grabs, and it's at least implied you can't use HA to damage an entangle that's affecting you.

[prestidigitator]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

Their classic thing used to be move-bys' date=' preferable multiple. Now that Hand Attack no longer adds to Move-By/Through and DCV is halved doing move-by, the classic no-defense high DCV speedster is, well, dead meat in 6E.[/quote']

Not sure where you're getting all of that. You can add your Hand Attack (at full effect--not halved--unless it is a weapon) to a Move By or Move Through (at least when the SFX are appropriate). See 6E2 p. 71. Also, neither maneuver halves your DCV: Move By imposes a -2 and Move Through imposes a -3. See 6E2 p. 56. I seriously don't see where everyone sees such big changes to the rules in 6E; my interpretation is that the biggest and most prevalent changes are in moving many more things into the realm of GM discretion.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

Also, AoE Teleport can simulate moving things by running around very fast; Time Limit Desolid linked to a massive HA/HKA with Extra Time can simulate a "Round the World" punch; INT with Costs END, Increased END and Concentration can simulate "I may have an average IQ, but it's an average IQ that's running thirty times faster than yours"; AoE Detect (Contents of Books), Discriminatory, Analyze can simulate "Oh, I just read a few (hundred) books..."

[randian]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

Not sure where you're getting all of that. You can add your Hand Attack (at full effect--not halved--unless it is a weapon) to a Move By or Move Through (at least when the SFX are appropriate). See 6E2 p. 71.

"doesn’t apply to Move By/Through damage without the GM’s permission". See 6E1 231. Saying "you can to this generally prohibited thing if the GM lets you" is hardly my idea of "yeah, it's ok", especially since the whole point of making something "only with GM permission" is to warn off GM's from allowing it.

Also, neither maneuver halves your DCV: Move By imposes a -2 and Move Through imposes a -3. See 6E2 p. 56.

I was thinking of Multiple Move-By when I wrote that.

my interpretation is that the biggest and most prevalent changes are in moving many more things into the realm of GM discretion.

I think that's generally a bad idea. One of the great things about Hero was the general consistency of game rules from GM to GM and game to game. Since everybody knows everything is at the GM's discretion anyway, all making more things at the GM's discretion does is make house rules more common. I think house rules tend to breed insularity and fracture the larger community.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

Well' date=' doing multiple move-by is the point, otherwise you're just a 10 STR mook with movement. While taking 1/2 DCV is certainly not unfair in the abstract, it further exacerbates the speedster tax. Now you need even more movement to keep you off the board at the beginning and end of your phase so you don't get murdered on the counterattack. Also, whereas before when the enemy would delay to throw you could have some chance to avoid it even at -2 DCV, whereas at half-1 DCV you're simply toast if somebody decides to throw you.[/quote']

 

Guess what - all characters have strengths and weaknesses. You seem to be overlooking the fact that every other character archetype can either attack once in a phase or suffer their DCV being halved. If every other character can throw a single attack per phase doing 12d6 (let's set that as our typical DC's), and your character can throw 3 such attacks per phase, I think your character has a significant combat advantage. Against an opponent with 25 defenses, every other character can inflict 17 STUN per turn on average, and yours can inflict 51. And this is before considering your SPD is undoubtedly higher, so you also get more phases.

 

That advantage needs to be offset in some way so that the speedster is not a dominant archetype. There are a number of ways to offset it, including:

 

(a) You could have lower DC's. If you have 9 DC's, each hit averages 6.5 damage, and you get 19.5 past defenses on a typical phase - still almost 15% higher than the other characters, but at least in the ballpark.

 

( You could have a lower OCV, so you won't hit nearly as often as the other characters (or at least not if he uses multiple move bys). I suspect your character is designed to have a similar OCV after multiple move by penalties to the other characters' normal OCV', but having the same base (before move by penalties) OCV would level the field somewhat.

 

© You could be a glass cannon, capable of inflicting significantly greater damage at the cost of being much easier to take out. Halving your DCV when you make multiple attacks has that result.

 

(d) You could do more damage per phase, but have less phases available. However, I suspect the speedster's SPD will typically be well above, not below, the average character, exacerbating the difference rather than mitigating it. Of course, a speedster with a 8 SPD who has to abort 5 of them to Dodge, Dive for Cover, or take other defensive actions to avoid a solid hit would have less phases to attack on than his teammates, who can take those hits, which is the same net effect.

 

Who else's basic Xd6 attack needs GM permission? HA is no more abusive in a speedster's hands than it would be in a brick's' date=' so long as total DC is in line.[/quote']

 

If your Speedster has a 20 STR, a 4d6 Hand Attack (that truncheon you wanted) and 80 meters of movement, his move by does 12d6 damage, just like everyone else's even if the Hand Attack is halved due to the move by. He has spent 68 points on running, 20 (ignoring any limitations) on his hand attack and 10 on STR, so 98. The Energy Projector winp sells back 2 STR and buys a 12d6 EB for 60 points, so he spends 58 sp far. He has 40 left to buy 40 meters of Flight, and moves half as far as you do in a phase. I don't see where the speedster is hugely disadvantaged by this structure. Drop the halving of Hand Attack DC's when a move by is used and the Speedster drops his STR to 10 and dumps 1d6 HA, retaining a 12d6 attack. That saves him 15 points - now the EP only gets to move 25 meters.

 

If the EP wants to end up,say, 30 meters away from his target, he takes a range penalty to his OCV. You don't suffer a similar penalty - you are always considered attacking HTH despite ending up 30 meters away.

 

Er' date=' why? Eliminating every means by which a speedster pays less than 10 points/DC seems unfair. "Trades half usual damage for a velocity adder" is a "so what?" item for me. As GM, why should I care, it's not as if the speedster's d6s are qualitatively different when applied to a target's defenses.[/quote']

 

The speedster does not pay 10 points per DC. The character wishing to use move by as their primary attack pay 10 points per DC which also includes movement (since it is typically extra movement that adds those extra DC's). Rather than the design I set out above to have a 12d6 Move By, the Speedster could have that 20 STR, and buy Superspeed Attacks +8d6 Hand Attack. This could be defined as "rapidly circling his opponent, striking him hundreds of times in under a second", for example, simply a different mechanic for the SFX of a multiple move by on a single target. That soaks up 50 points (again, ignoring limitations on his Hand Attack), so he only has 48 left to total a 60 meter combat running speed. I can toss that HA into a Multipower of other SuperSpeed tricks too (like 1 hex area TK Windstorms - great for taking pesky Martial Artists off their feet for a few seconds so my teammates can finish them.

 

 

More like "can't afford defenses"' date=' since as I said movement is a expensive damage mechanic. Basically, it's a sunk cost issue. You've already spent beaucoup points on movement, so you might as well buy more because you don't have the points to buy adequate defense.[/quote']

 

As seen from my example above, it seems like the Speedster still has points after buying his attack and movement, and he moves considerably faster than the EP.

 

If you're only buying just enough movement so that you must stay in the thick of things' date=' and have brick-like DCV because you're attacking at half DCV in simulated "move-by" mode, then you must have brick-like defenses to compensate. Basically, you're a low-STR brick who defines his studly PD as "avoids damage at super-speed". Certainly a fine concept SFX-wise, but an entirely different character in terms of game mechanics. Also, there's a reason nobody makes low-STR+HA characters with low DCV: you're totally screwed by grabs, and it's at least implied you can't use HA to damage an entangle that's affecting you.[/quote']

 

There is no reason a hand attack (unlimited) cannot affect an Entangle, any more than a Blaster whose blast emenates from his hands cannot do so.

 

My point, once again, is that the Speedster does not have to rely on multiple move by's to be effective. You are hung up on being able to attack multiple times for each attack other characters get. That is a powerful ability. It should carry a cost.

 

As an alternative build, consider 10 STR, no Hand Attack and 80 meters of movement. He has spent 68 points on running, and saved 30 points. He does 9d6 damage instead of 12d6 with his Move By. Now, what shall I spend my 30 points on? Let's say 4 on +2 OCV with Move By, and another 6 on Penalty Skill Levels to offset multiple attack penalties. That should be enough for at least 4 PSL's, so I can now make three move by attacks at my base OCV. That leaves 20 points to buy +8 DCV, Linked to Running (-1/2), only when making multiple attacks (-1/2). Assuming I started with a 12 DCV, so I would have a 10 with a single Move By, when I make multiple attacks, I have a DCV of [12 + 8 -2 =18, halved =] 9. If my base DCV was, say, 15 (so I had a 13 under the old move by model), I'd now have a [15 + 8 -2 = 21/2 =] 11 DCV - not as stellar as making a single attack, but still pretty impressive.

 

This character will play a bit different. Against mooks, he makes multiple move bys against multiple targets. Against Supers, he makes multiple move bys against his one opponent, zipping in 25 meters, circling him three times (30 meters) and zipping out 25 meters again. 80 meters total, and 19.5 damage assuming he gets the rolls to hit - more damage than the others get, but then he needs three successful to hit rolls to get there. In some cases, he may have to restrict himself to a single 9d6 attack to have a higher DCV - another different choice.

 

Of course, this assumes that the character simply straight up fights one opponent one on one. Consider using some TACTICS! With that kind of movement, he can be anywhere on the battlefield. Let my opponent stand there looking stupid - I'll go attack a teammate's opponent three times, or make a single attack on each of three teammates' opponents, to help them take down their opponent faster. Then they can take down my guy. The Brick can't hit that Martial Artist? Maybe I can Trip that sneaky little twerp after he moves, and before the Brick does. Or I can Grab the Brick, and move him to engage my opponent - that MA won't hit me so easily at full DCV, and my 9d6 Move By per phase will whittle him down over time.

 

Actually, the "support character" in combat can be very effective, and a ton of fun. I recently ran a VPP magical character, with the agreement that his VPP could Link up attacks, but the total attack could not be 13+ DC's. A few dice of Flash plus some dice of Ranged Drain (5er) made for a very interesting combat approach. He never attacked the same target twice in succession, but hitting the opposing Brick for a 2 1/2d6 DEX Drain plus a 5d6 Flash, then changing up to hit the Mentalist with 5d6 STR drain + 5d6 Flash next phase made for an interesting combat dynamic. I don't believe he ever took down a credible opponent on his own (unless forced to fight one on one), but my teammates never complained he wasn't pulling his weight. You don't have to strike the knockout punch, or even inflict damage, to be an effective combatant.

 

Not sure where you're getting all of that. You can add your Hand Attack (at full effect--not halved--unless it is a weapon) to a Move By or Move Through (at least when the SFX are appropriate). See 6E2 p. 71. Also' date=' neither maneuver halves your DCV: Move By imposes a -2 and Move Through imposes a -3. See 6E2 p. 56. I seriously don't see where everyone sees such big changes to the rules in 6E; my interpretation is that the biggest and most prevalent changes are in moving many more things into the realm of GM discretion.[/quote']

 

The DCV issue arises because randian wants to be able to perform multiple move by's. Prior to 6e, the -2 DCV modifier from themove by itself was applied. In 6e, multiple move by's were folded into Rapid Attack, so a character performing, say, 3 attacks on one target using multiple move by's in 5e took a -6 OCV and -2 DCV penalty. In 6e, he takes the same -6 OCV penalty, but has to halve his DCV after the -2 penalty (just like a character punching three times, or Blasting tree times would take -4 OCV and halve their DCV).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

"doesn’t apply to Move By/Through damage without the GM’s permission". See 6E1 231. Saying "you can to this generally prohibited thing if the GM lets you" is hardly my idea of "yeah' date=' it's ok", especially since the whole point of making something "only with GM permission" is to warn off GM's from allowing it.[/quote']

 

The rules must be read in their entirety. While I agree that, taken in isolation, 6E1 p 231 indicates allowing HA to enhance velocity-based maneuvers is intended to be prohibited, the fact is that the same page provides the example power of a club, and the Move By maneuver description in 6E2 specifically mentions using a weapon (such as a club) in a move by, rather than your hands. Taken together, these seem to imply some hand attacks should be usable in a move by. 6e2 p 71, as cited by prestidigitator, really seals the deal, though, in making it clear that GM's should be open to SFX appropriate HA's being usable in velocity maneuvers.

 

randian, I think it would help me conceptualize the issue better if I had a sense of how you envision a speedster's characteristics, and those of other characters, working. Can you post a quick summary of, say, the abilities you'd expect of a typical Speedster, Brick, Blaster and Martial Artist in terms of typical OCV, DCV, DC (all in a standard attack), how many attacks in a phase (ie how many move by's in a phase for the speedster-I assume one attack per phase for the others), defenses, movement rates and Speeds?

 

I'd like to be able to compare the archetypes with the attributes you're envisioning as I think this would give me a better sense of where you are coming from.

[prestidigitator]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

I think that's generally a bad idea. One of the great things about Hero was the general consistency of game rules from GM to GM and game to game. Since everybody knows everything is at the GM's discretion anyway' date=' all making more things at the GM's discretion does is make house rules more common. I think house rules tend to breed insularity and fracture the larger community.[/quote']

To each his own. I think it was a really positive change. Most GMs created house rules for any aspect of the system they didn't like anyway, so this way seems to both even out the expectations and put the decision making squarely where it should be. I also like the fact that this change should (at least theoretically) make the system a lot easier for Steve Long to maintain because hopefully he has to produce a lot fewer, "That's up to the GM," answers (now it's a "well, duh!"), and that it moves the system way away from the corner-case-of-corner-case-of-corner-case set-in-concrete D&D type rule set. I like my "toolkit" thank you very much.

[prestidigitator]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

What do speedsters do in 6E?

There's always the old, "If you'd like to be able to do more stuff, buy up your Speed," approach. That's sort of what the Characteristic is supposed to be for, after all.

[Fireg0lem]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

In general, the tactics that are most effective for speedsters (by "Speedster" I mean a character whose main assets are high movement, SPD, and CVs) are those that revolve around either trading actions with slower opponents, or increasing the effect of the actions of slower PCs. Examples:

 

-If someone is entangled, in a darkness field, or something similar where you can get them out of it so that they don't lose an action (break the entangle, use super-speed to carry them out of the darkness field), that's generally a good move.

-On the flip side, use your actions to make enemies waste actions. Entangle is very useful on a speedster - if you can make someone waste one of their actions breaking your entangle, and they have lower SPD, it's a net gain.

-Throws are very useful. Even without too much STR, it's possible to throw most people. If they don't have Breakfall or an Instant Stand power (or some other way of standing up fast), a lot of people will lose an action. Throwing people off of things is always good too.

-You can also use Throws, knockdown effects, Entangles, Flashes, et cetera to lower someone's DCV right before a slower but heavier hitting teammate acts to make sure they can hit.

-Holding actions is often a good plan on a speedster; if you can bait someone into attacking you, then abort to DFC/Dodge/maybe a Desolidification if you have it, you can exchange actions which is to your advantage if they have less Speed.

[Hyper-Man]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

On a related subject, I have been watching a lot of Justice League Animated lately.

This

stands out.

 

The Flash obviously uses a Martial Throw vs. Superman but how would he add his own velocity to the distance in HERO?

Is it legal to use combine a Half Move run in a tight circle (which could be done at his top combat Running velocity) with the Martial Throw?

If so, that's a near fight ender vs. a brick the speedster can lift*.

 

from 6e2 page 92,

 

MARTIAL THROW

This Martial Maneuver is in effect an advanced version of the Throw Combat Maneuver (see above) that applies only to characters (it can’t be used to throw ordinary objects at characters). It has a better DCV modifier, and it exploits velocity to add to the damage done. Unlike a regular Throw, a character doesn’t have to Grab a character before using Martial Throw on him.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

For a basic speedster, lots of movement and some extra HTH damage defined as "superspeed" punches is just fine. And when you are facing a bunch of thugs, you can do multiple move-bys or passing strikes or whatever with relative impunity because they are just thugs and their combat value and speed are so low as to be no match for a superhero. But there are combat penalties, as noted above, so you have to be consider whether it is worth doing this manuever. And seriously, you are trying to take out several opponents at once, this shouldn't be easy to do.

 

If you want a souped-up speedster that can take out a crowd of mooks without a thought, buy a Multipower for speedster tricks and put a AoE Blast with Selective in there, the sfx is that you run around smacking everyone in the area. This allows you to hit everyone in the area with no combat penalty. It doesn't have the elegance that the basic speedster gets cost-wise since you don't actually get to use the points you spent on movement, but it accomplishes what you want to do.

[phookz]

Re: What do speedsters do in 6E?

 

The Flash obviously uses a Martial Throw vs. Superman but how would he add his own velocity to the distance in HERO?

Is it legal to use combine a Half Move run in a tight circle (which could be done at his top combat Running velocity) with the Martial Throw?

If so, that's a near fight ender vs. a brick the speedster can lift*.

 

from 6e2 page 92,

 

Maybe he's not adding his velocity. Maybe he bought extra STR with the limitation only for Martial Throws, only when there's room to move, etc.

 

Oh, and that clip reminds me that I need to set my DVR up to record some of these animated shows