Help with Old West Weapon design

[tcabril]

I need a bit of help designing weapons and firearms for my Old West game that I have been working on (thanks to all of you who have piped in with helpful suggestions).

Before I begin I have to state that I am new to the Hero System game so some of my questions may seem rather simple in nature.

I am going through the process of designing weapons for my game (and when I am done I hope to post them here so others can access to my versions of period weapons) and I read the chapter and now as I go to reverse engineer the weapons that are provided I get all messed up.

For example a .38 Derringer had 1d6 damage and has an A/R Cost of 15/3 [This works as 1d6 of RKA costs 15pts and I believe you divide by 5 as it’s a weapon to get the 3 real cost – am I correct?] Should there be Advantages and or Limitations here as well?

Here is another Example: .357 Colt Python with 1 ½ d6 Damage and an A/R Cost of 27/8. Here is how I think this one works -> 1 ½ d6 = 25 Active points (15 for the 1d6 +10pts for the ½ d6) and then I figured the other 2 pts came from the +1 OCV somehow.

Another example (one that does not work): a .45 Colt Peacemaker with 2d6-1 damage has an A/R cost of 34/9. I cannot back into this number no matter what I do.

So can someone PLEASE help me in the weapon design process?

1. How is A/R figured out?

2. Do you have to figure in OCV adjustments to cost and STUNx to cost?

3. How are Advantages and Limitations figured in or are then sort of netted with the /5 thing?

[Escafarc]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

I don't have my books with me so I can't give you the page numbers but there are rules for building weapons in 6E2. You don't divide by 5. You build them just like Powers with the Focus Limitaion, Charges, Real Weapon Limit,and STR Min(the last two are in 6E2).

[tcabril]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

Is there a basic formula that is used? I have spent a great deal of time on this and I just can't figure it out.

[BeZurKur]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

The order of operations for HERO is you first figure out the cost with Advantages to come up with the Active Cost. You then apply the Limitations to get the Real Cost. The distinction between Active Cost and Real Cost may seem like just semantics, but it is critical -- especially when designing Campaign Guidelines.

 

For the .38 Derringer, it has no Advantages, so the Active Cost remains at 15. Now to figure out the total limitations...

 

OAF: 1

Two Charges: 1.5

Beam: 0.25

Real Weapon: 0.25

Str Min of Four: 0.25

Total = 3.25 but when you do the math, you add one to that value for a final 4.25.

 

15/4.25 = 3.5

In this case round down. The final cost is 3. Make sense?

[tcabril]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

Cool! Thanks! Now this is starting to make sense!

 

What about things like adjustments to OCV and STUNx?

[tcabril]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

Now things are falling off the rails again...

 

How would the A/R cost of the .45 Colt Peacemaker be 34/9? I would have thought the Active cost would have been 25 based upon 2d6-1 Damage breaking down to 30 pts (1d6 = 15 then x2) and then a reverse modifier from HKA of -5 for the -1 pt of damage.

34pts does not make sense to me.

[BeZurKur]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

The STUNx is an advantage, so it is done first and modifies the Active Cost. Treat the bonus to OCV as an adder: in other words, buy the Combat Skill Level bonus to OCV and just add (no multiplication) the cost to the active cost. Then apply the limitations.

[mayapuppies]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

Now things are falling off the rails again...

 

How would the A/R cost of the .45 Colt Peacemaker be 34/9? I would have thought the Active cost would have been 25 based upon 2d6-1 Damage breaking down to 30 pts (1d6 = 15 then x2) and then a reverse modifier from HKA of -5 for the -1 pt of damage.

34pts does not make sense to me.

Weapons are built exactly like any other power in Hero System. It seems to me like you haven't read through how to do this and I recommend looking at the Power Creation Checklist on P.123 of 6E1.

 

When dealing with a "weapon" (or any other power) that combines multiple powers (i.e. RKA and a Combat Skill level from your example) use the Compound Power rules on P.119 of 6E1

[brionl]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

Don't get too elaborate with your weapons. The reason there are so many different calibres like .45 Colt & .44 WCF & .44 Russian & so on is that there really isn't any big difference. In game terms they all do the same damage, and the guns have all the same modifiers. Players like to have 40 different guns to choose from, but really they are all the same.

 

You should really get Hero Designer, it makes this kind of thing so much easier. I took about 10 minutes to come up with these using the 6th edition book 2:

5 Derringer: Killing Attack - Ranged 1d6+1 (20 Active Points); 2 clips of 2 Charges (-1 1/4), OAF (-1), Beam (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4)

8 Sixgun: Killing Attack - Ranged 1 1/2d6 (25 Active Points); OAF (-1), 2 clips of 6 Charges (Increased Reloading Time: 2 Full Phases; -3/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam (-1/4)

8 Levergun: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6-1 (25 Active Points); OAF (-1), 2 clips of 8 Charges (Increased Reloading Time: 2 Full Phases; -1/2), Two Handed Weapon (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4)

9 Buffalo Rifle: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6+1 (35 Active Points); OAF (-1), 8 clips of 1 Charge (-1), Two Handed Weapon (-1/2), Beam (-1/4), Real Weapon (-1/4)

9 Side-by-Side Shotgun: Killing Attack - Ranged 2d6, Area Of Effect (1m Radius; +1/4) (37 Active Points); 2 clips of 2 Charges (-1 1/4), OAF (-1), Two Handed Weapon (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Limited Range (40"; -1/4)

 

There's all the guns you need to run a campaign.

The damage values are one step less than the equivalents listed in 6E2 because they're black powder weapons, and various other reasons. If your players get cranky because they don't have enough choices, you can always tweak them (in Hero Designer) so one model has +1 OCV, or an increased range modifer or something similar.

[tcabril]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

I would like to take a moment to say thanks to everyone who chimmed in on this thread - it has been great. As I may or may not have stated I am new to the Hero System and besides being a very cool system it is, I have to say, very thick! meaning that there is a great deal to it. I may have read the Powers section front to back at least twice - I certainly cannot remember all of it.

I only have my Hero System Basic Rulebook with me but I plan to look up all the information that has been suggested to me when I get home in the big honking 6E1 & 6E2.

I really wanted to learn and understand the mechanics of weapon design and all it entails. It would be very easy to say that a Colt Dragoon does 1 1/2D6 and costs $42.00 but I really wanted to know how things came to be what they are (I used to run lots of RIFTS so I am used to just coming up with wonky stuff on the fly).

 

I am sure to have many more questions so please bear with me - but I just wanted to say thanks!!!

 

Todd

[mayapuppies]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

No problem at all. This is likely the most friendly gaming forum around, at least as far as I've found.

 

welcome aboard and I would absolutely second the the earlier suggestion about Hero Designer. Greatest purchase I've ever made for Hero System.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

As for monetary cost, use your common sense for that - I've tried cost schemes; they don't work so well.

[BeZurKur]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

Tcabri, you're right. Those costs don't match up. I believe it is an error in the active cost. A 2d6-1 attack is 25 points; 31 points with a +1 Increased STUN Multiplier. The books lists it as 34. It should read an A/R of 31/8. Let's run down building the power.

 

First is Base plus Advantages

2d6-1 RKA is 25 points

+1 STUNx is a +0.25 Advantage

That comes to an Active Cost of 31

 

Then apply Limitations

Focus -1.0

Charges -0.75

Str Min -0.5

Beam -0.25

Real Weapon -0.25

Total Limitation of -2.75

 

31 / 3.75 = 8.3 rounds to 8

(FWIW, 34 / 3.75 is 9. The books error was in the Active Cost.)

 

Some things about those limitations. Don't be afraid to edit their values or remove them entirely for your campaign. You know the effect you want; adjust to suit them. For example, I don't like the Real Weapon limitation. The rule of thumb is a -1/4 limitation should affect you about a quarter of the time. The games I run are not so meticulous about the things the Real Weapon Limitation affects. If I were running a French-Indian War in the colonies, then yeah. Things like keeping your powder dry are a big part of the flavor of the game, but otherwise, I wouldn't use Real Weapon. Other people do. It's all about how you want your campaign.

[Tom Carman]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

4th Edition Western Hero is a good investment. I don't recall is it made much use of the Real Weapon lim, but there were plenty of optional rules: how fast you can reload a cartridge revolver, Activation rolls for jams and dud rounds if you don't keep up your gun maintenance, gun parameter tweaking (long barrels for range mods, short ones for a faster draw). For Civil War and earlier games, there are rules for cap-and-ball guns; those were much slower to load, of course, but cap-and-ball revolvers were usually designed to swap out the entire cylinder.

[Tasha]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

Now things are falling off the rails again...

 

How would the A/R cost of the .45 Colt Peacemaker be 34/9? I would have thought the Active cost would have been 25 based upon 2d6-1 Damage breaking down to 30 pts (1d6 = 15 then x2) and then a reverse modifier from HKA of -5 for the -1 pt of damage.

34pts does not make sense to me.

 

Just wondering what the source of the writeup for that gun is. Some of the older source books have both math errors and errors due to rules changes. So knowing the source of your weapon writeups will be quite helpful. Though I see that you are using the writeup in 6e2 pg 208

 

Using the rules for writing up weapons in 6e2 pg 198-210 (Nearly All hero books have excellent indexes). I used the Hero Designer program to save calculator time.

 

.45 Colt Peacemaker : RKA 2d6-1, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4), Reduced Endurance (0 END; +1/2) (44 Active Points); OAF (-1), STR Minimum 10 (STR Min. Cannot Add/Subtract Damage; -1), 6 Charges (-3/4), Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam (-1/4)

 

Unless I missed something the 6e2 writeup has borked math. (sigh it happens).

 

PS I highly recommend the purchase of Hero Designer. It makes character creation a breeze and it makes all of the math correct and easy to deal with. It also outputs a nice characer sheet (either the PDF one or the many excellent export formats that are downloadable from the HD website).

[Tasha]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

4th Edition Western Hero is a good investment. I don't recall is it made much use of the Real Weapon lim' date=' but there were plenty of optional rules: how fast you can reload a cartridge revolver, Activation rolls for jams and dud rounds if you don't keep up your gun maintenance, gun parameter tweaking (long barrels for range mods, short ones for a faster draw). For Civil War and earlier games, there are rules for cap-and-ball guns; those were much slower to load, of course, but cap-and-ball revolvers were usually designed to swap out the entire cylinder.[/quote']

 

The writeups there are from an earlier edition of the rules that didn't have "real Weapon" or require Reduced endurance 0 End, before Str Min can be applied. So the writeups are completely usable, but the point values for said weapons will not be "correct" for a 5e or 6e game.

[brionl]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

Another point. Assuming you are running your Old West game as a Standard Heroic campaign, most of the time sixguns and such will be equipment purchased with money, not powers purchased with character points. So it doesn't really matter if it's 8 or 9 real points, or 34 or 44 active points.

 

Doesn't charges automatically give you endurance 0 anyway?

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

It does, to a point - The point values can give you indicators on cost.

 

Yes, they do.

[BeZurKur]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

Tasha, why Reduced End and Charges?

[Tasha]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

Tasha' date=' why Reduced End and Charges?[/quote']

 

Weapons are supposed to be brought down to 0 End before Str Min is added.

 

Temporary braindeath. Forgetting that Charges replace end cost (ie items with Charges are 0 End)

 

8 .45 Colt Peacemaker : RKA 2d6-1, +1 Increased STUN Multiplier (+1/4) (31 Active Points); OAF (-1), 6 Charges (-3/4), STR Minimum 10 (-1/2), Real Weapon (-1/4), Beam (-1/4)

 

Unless I forgot something else.

 

The weapon Creation rules in 6e are kind of fractured and you have to read a ton of stuff to find the real nuggets of how Weapons are supposed to be Advantaged and limited

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

Also, 0 End because the default assumption of a power is that it is a power, not, say, a sword who's main END cost comes form the STR to swing it.

[Spence]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

 

The weapon Creation rules in 6e are kind of fractured and you have to read a ton of stuff to find the real nuggets of how Weapons are supposed to be Advantaged and limited

 

Hmmmm.... {picks up scattered papers on desk looking for the non-existent page} ..

 

Where is my copy of Tasha’s Guide to Weapon Builds?

 

Hint Hint

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

Hmmmm.... {picks up scattered papers on desk looking for the non-existent page} ..

 

Where is my copy of Tasha’s Guide to Weapon Builds?

 

Hint Hint

...In Two Pages?

[Tasha]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

kk Working on it. Dunno about 2 pages, but I'll try.

[Michael Hopcroft]

Re: Help with Old West Weapon design

 

Reminds me of the Post-Apocalypse Hero character I posted a while back, a gunfighter who had actually crafted her own pistols. It was part of the mystique of the Gun-Bushi (aka "Six-Gun Samurai") that their mastery of their weapons was so profound that they would only use guns they or their master/mentor had made themselves. One of her motivations was that she was hunting the man who had killed her master and taken his guns.

 

When I wrote up the character, I didn't bother to stat out the guns -- she was still a Heroic character so she paid for her weapons in time, materials and effort rather than points. Now I wonder whether I should have written up the guns anyway even if she didn't buy them with points.