Complications

[algesan]

My group is doing 5th Ed gaming, but the idea of no figured stats is interesting, so for fun, using Hero Designer (HD), I started converting over some of the 5th Ed Characters to 6th Ed to see what changes we could preview and if it would be worthwhile to think about changing over.

 

First issue to pop up:

5th Ed character with 75 Base, 100 Disadvantage, 160 Exp = 335 points available

 

6th Ed character with 75 Base, 100 Complications, 160 Exp = 235 points available!!!

 

Obviously, it appears that the "Complications" don't add to character points available to spend. True or a bug?

[Hyper-Man]

Re: Complications

 

There are older threads that discuss this in detail but 6e changes the formula from additive to subtractive. You pick the maximum points of the final character and choose how many complications are required.

(see this superman example 400/75).

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Complications

 

My group is doing 5th Ed gaming, but the idea of no figured stats is interesting, so for fun, using Hero Designer (HD), I started converting over some of the 5th Ed Characters to 6th Ed to see what changes we could preview and if it would be worthwhile to think about changing over.

 

First issue to pop up:

5th Ed character with 75 Base, 100 Disadvantage, 160 Exp = 335 points available

 

6th Ed character with 75 Base, 100 Complications, 160 Exp = 235 points available!!!

 

Obviously, it appears that the "Complications" don't add to character points available to spend. True or a bug?

 

Hyper-Man's explanation nails it. In 5e, the character had a 75 base + 100 Disadvantages + 160 Exp = 335 points.

 

An equivalent 6e character would have a 175 base + 160 Exp = 335, and require 100 points of complications. If he has less complications, he reduces his base.

 

Perhaps a better way to envision this is that the character has 175 points, and needs 100 points of complications. If he wishes, he can spend character points to reduce his required complications 1:1, so he could spend 25 points buying his required complications down to 75, and spend his remaining 150 points on powers, skills, characteristics, etc.

[Narf the Mouse]

Re: Complications

 

On the one hand, it comes across as backwards. On the other hand, it establishes the base points as the highline, rather than the lowline (Which latter seems somewhat backward).

[algesan]

Re: Complications

 

Thanks, my search on "complications" gave me too many choices, none of which seemed to give a straight answer.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Complications

 

Remember that 6E characters are probably going to need more total points, too, because of the difference in buying Characteristics. So if you're not doing a straight conversion and saying, "However many points it takes to be faithful to the original character," then you might have to figure out some kind of average or maximum amount the characters are going to need to balance out and give that to everyone as a bonus in Base Points.

[Tasha]

Re: Complications

 

Hyper-Man's explanation nails it. In 5e, the character had a 75 base + 100 Disadvantages + 160 Exp = 335 points.

 

An equivalent 6e character would have a 175 base + 160 Exp = 335, and require 100 points of complications. If he has less complications, he reduces his base.

 

Perhaps a better way to envision this is that the character has 175 points, and needs 100 points of complications. If he wishes, he can spend character points to reduce his required complications 1:1, so he could spend 25 points buying his required complications down to 75, and spend his remaining 150 points on powers, skills, characteristics, etc.

 

Though in 6e a 175 pt character would have 50 pts of complications if using the charts from 6e1 pg 34. I would also recommend giving and additional 25-35 points to build themselves with. With no Free Secondary Characteristics (beyond base), characters cost a bit more in 6e.

 

I look at it this way. In 5e we would say build a character based on 75pts +100 pts in Disads. Now we just cut to the chase and say we are building 175 pt characters that Should have 50pts in Complications. The difference being is that before we would build characters and then fill the disads to have enough points to afford to be the same powerlevel as everyone else. In 6e we buy the character with the points and the lower amount of complications are there to add flavor to the character. It means that the complications more often fit the original concept, instead of having to make the additional disads fit into a character's background.

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Complications

 

Still feels way more restrictive to me but I'm in the minority. Been over that territory.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: Complications

 

Still feels way more restrictive to me but I'm in the minority. Been over that territory.

 

In practice, I think it's unchanged. You can have X maximum points and must take Y points of complications, so you get X - Y = Z points with no complications.

 

All that changes is semantics. In 5e, this was phrased as "you can have Z + Y points to spend on your character". In 6e, it is phrased as "You can have X points to spend on your character, so lonbg as you take Y points in complications. If you take less than Y points in complications, reduce X by the same amount."

 

The guidelines suggest requiring less complication points in 6e than we used for disadvantage points in 5e, but that's easily changed for those that wish to do so. For me, it means some of the former "fluff" disadvantages go away. For example, in 5e Supers, everyone had a couple of Hunteds, and they were seldom if ever germane to the character, or very creative. In 6e, Supers take a Hunted only if it is really relevant to the character concept, so it's not "He's Hunted by two people or groups who are as powerful as he is - Mr. GM, just slot in whatever bad guys you plan on using anyway and they will hold a grudge".

[Doc Democracy]

Re: Complications

 

Still feels way more restrictive to me but I'm in the minority. Been over that territory.

 

It depends on how it was played I think. I think the change was made to defend against the charage that you had to cripple your character before you could make it effective. Changing the name and changing the emphasis simply addresses that charage before it is made.

 

In practice you may still take the maximum points available if you agree to all the complications. If you want fewer complications then you pay them off using your base points. If you want more complications then you can take them and, depending on your GM, might even get points for them.

 

Doc

 

Doc

[torchwolf]

Re: Complications

 

When you want to adjust the required number of Disadvantages/Complications, but not alter available points to build the character:

 

1E-5E: Adjust allowed Disadvantage total PLUS inversely adjust Base Points by same amount.

 

6E: Adjust required Complications total.

 

Makes no difference to most on these boards but reduces a step when adjusting Disads/Comps up or down, which might be better for new Hero players/GMs.

 

Not to say this was the reason, but may have had bearing on the decision.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Complications

 

I think in part it might be to help simplify things with things like Followers and Multiform and Summon, too. "Is that Base Points or Total Points or...?"

[algesan]

Re: Complications

 

I think in part it might be to help simplify things with things like Followers and Multiform and Summon' date=' too. "Is that Base Points or Total Points or...?"[/quote']

 

Oh, UGH, hadn't gotten that far down the road. Yeah, I can see I'm going to have to hand out some free points or get them to start a lowbie game. After cutting down DEX to 14 and converting their combat skill levels into OCV/DCV stats, they just got back to 7 OCV & DCV or what their 20 DEX starting gave them.

 

It works out the same for me with flipped terminology. 5E Base + Disadvantages = X = 6E Base - Complications.

 

As a chrome thing, I like it. I don't see it making any difference in the long run though, players will take max disadvantages/complications to get max points. I just had one shriek when we finished a campaign arc that ended up with him putting his sword through the gut of his NPC rival (ok, that last hit was a bit south of the guts, but whatever ). He was frantic for another rivalry to keep his points up. I had to point out that one of his Hunteds was already over the disadvantage cap and he would be getting the excess points counted now (his fault, the bad guys were starting to hand them their arses and he decided to recover from being stunned and pop a pair of triple 1s out for to hit and location on the tank, end the fight and irk the bad guys). I let him rant just for a few minutes just for fun...

[bigbywolfe]

Re: Complications

 

Still feels way more restrictive to me but I'm in the minority. Been over that territory.

 

Can you explain why it feels more restrictive? As pointed out, it is exactly the same mathematically, and less Disads/Comps are required. I'm seriously having trouble understanding how being required to take less crippling elements can possibly be more restrictive...

[Lucius]

Re: Complications

 

Can you explain why it feels more restrictive? As pointed out' date=' it is exactly the same mathematically, and [i']less[/i] Disads/Comps are required. I'm seriously having trouble understanding how being required to take less crippling elements can possibly be more restrictive...

 

Well, how many points of Disadvantages were required for a superhero under the Old Regime?

 

Zero.

 

How many Disads were required for a hero?

 

Zero.

 

Go back and check the rules. Disads were not required at all. They were a choice, although a very popular choice.

 

Under the New Regime, the way it's expressed makes them sound less optional.

 

Now, technically, you still don't HAVE to take Complications, nor to take them at the maximum.

 

But under the Prior Dispensation, I had a choice with a superhero for example, of taking from 0 to 150 Disadvantages to help define my character and create challenges to confront and overcome and provide plot hooks etc. Under the Current Dispensation, my range of such choice is from 0 to, what, 75? Half what it was?

 

I can't speak for anyone else, but I can see how that could be seen as restrictive.

 

 

Now, I know some people are going to say "You can take extra Complications, you just don't get points for them." Which is perfectly okay to say, if, and only if, you're also willing to go along with it if I say "I want a few more Skills and Powers than I have points for. I don't want to pay points for them, I just want to have them." Or if I don't want to take all those Complications, but still want to spend as many points as if I did. If you're okay with those ideas I can admit that at least you're not being hypocritical.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

How many complications is a palindromedary required to take?

[prestidigitator]

Re: Complications

 

Well, the number of points worth of Complications is still just a suggested guideline. You could certainly still choose to run a superheroic game with 150 points worth of Complications.