Mortal Wounds

[GeekySpaz]

I've been thinking about something lately. I have not seen any damage system that I am aware of for any game that deals with mortal wounds, that is wounds that will kills the person who has recieved them, but not yet. The wound will result in death in hours or days and the wounded person may even be able to function for a while, maybe even in combat, before they finally succumb to it. But the wound is fatal and beyond the medical science of the setting to save the character's life.

 

Obviously any player would probably not like it if there was a rule for this in place that affected their characters. How much would it suck to still be playing your character but to know that later this session or next session you would be drawing up a new one and that their was nothing you could do about it. But what about for NPCs? For minor NPCs in combat this is somewhat moot. Either the NPC can continue to fight in which case you haven't defeated that foe yet (who cares if the orc barbarian is going to die in two days from the wound you just gave him to the gut, when he's going to kill you next turn?), or they are unable to fight and then does it matter how long that NPC will linger from his wounds before dying? But for major NPCs significant story elements may revolve around wounds such as this.

 

I don't think I've ever seen a system with rules for determining when a wound to a character is a mortal wound.

 

Thoughts?

[The_Patriot]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

Any wound that is up to -9 Body of the character is considered a mortal wound. At -10 Body the character will die. A character will suffer -1 Body each turn unless a successful Paramedics roll is made. It's on page 107 of 6E V2. You can design attacks that will kill a character at a specific time on the time chart with the Culumative Advantage on page 328 of 6e V1.

[GeekySpaz]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

Any wound that is up to -9 Body of the character is considered a mortal wound. At -10 Body the character will die. A character will suffer -1 Body each turn unless a successful Paramedics roll is made. It's on page 107 of 6E V2. You can design attacks that will kill a character at a specific time on the time chart with the Culumative Advantage on page 328 of 6e V1.

 

Not quite what I'm getting at. A wound that takes a character to less than 0 body causes them to bleed at 1 body per turn until they reach negative their starting body and die. Which is standard hero rules. But when loosing one body per turn a character will be dead in minutes and they can still be saved by a paramedics roll. What I am talking about is a situation where the character is still above 0 body but will die tomorrow from the wound and nothing short of magical healing in a fantasy game, or futuristic medicine in a sci-fi game can prevent the character's death. You can use the cumulative advantage can create a special power that has this effect every time it is used but then its really just a special ability of that power. What I am talking about is more a feature of combat itself. There are certain wounds that are fatal but in which death takes hours or day. For example I know that there are certain organs that if punctured will release toxins into the body that will eventually kill the person, and we are talking a slow death. Go back to times before modern medicine, say 1000 years ago, and there was nothing to be done for the wounded. They were done for and nothing could save them short of the sorts of sugeries that have really only been possible in modern times.

[The_Patriot]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

What you're looking for then is more along the lines of an AVALD Damage Over Time attack with a Cumulative advantage of Causes Mortal Wound where target dies in x time. You set the time to the next day.

[GeekySpaz]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

What you're looking for then is more along the lines of an AVALD Damage Over Time attack with a Cumulative advantage of Causes Mortal Wound where target dies in x time. You set the time to the next day.

 

Again, I'm not talking about how to build a specific power. The reason I started this thread was more to discuss this aspect of the nature of damage in RPGs, and maybe come up with a house rule for HERO that reflects this.

 

For example a rough idea (and I just came up with this now so its not been thought out fully) is any impairing or disabling wound to the the torso or head has a chance (perhaps determined with a CON roll) of being mortal. If the wound is mortal then the character makes a CON roll every hour and if he fails the roll he looses another body. Maybe with a mercy rule, pass 5 con rolls in a row and the wound wasn't mortal after all and you can start healing.

[Greywind]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

That doesn't seem so much to be a mechanics issue, but rather a plot point issue.

[GeekySpaz]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

That doesn't seem so much to be a mechanics issue' date=' but rather a plot point issue.[/quote']

 

Perhaps.

 

But many times the best story occurs because of those things that occur because of the mechanics that had there not been a mechanic for never would have come up. Where a random roll of the dice sends the plot in a direction that the GM or the player never would have thought of on their own.

 

I generally see rules as guidelines, but i find it helpful to have a mechanic in place for things rather than not since I find it easier to ignore a rule for the sake of story than to add an element to the game for the sake of story that would not have been present had I not needed it for the story. If it is possible that a mortal wound is going to feature into the story I would like to have a mechanic to help determine when it is reasonable to assume that a wound is indeed mortal.

[Greywind]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

When I run games I tend to fly by the seat of my pants, only having a rough outline of the plot to begin with because players refuse to cooperate and follow a filed flight plan.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

If I were going to do something like this I'd probably tie it in with the Impairing and Disabling rules rather than normal Body loss. On a really bad Disabling result for the chest, stomach, vitals, or head I might consider it. Of course, I'd probably also leave that possibility of magic/super-science unless it really fit with the game and players to dramatically play out the character's final hours.

 

EDIT: Hmm. Maybe also a possibility for a botched passed Paramedics roll, or a barely passed one on a character who is on death's door (just reaching or already reached negative Body). The idea being that they basically already HAVE died, but some extraordinary circumstances have bought them time that they otherwise wouldn't have had.

[GeekySpaz]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

If I were going to do something like this I'd probably tie it in with the Impairing and Disabling rules rather than normal Body loss. On a really bad Disabling result for the chest, stomach, vitals, or head I might consider it. Of course, I'd probably also leave that possibility of magic/super-science unless it really fit with the game and players to dramatically play out the character's final hours.

 

EDIT: Hmm. Maybe also a possibility for a botched passed Paramedics roll, or a barely passed one on a character who is on death's door (just reaching or already reached negative Body). The idea being that they basically already HAVE died, but some extraordinary circumstances have bought them time that they otherwise wouldn't have had.

 

I don't think my gaming group would be up to playing out their final hours that way. However for a major NPC such as the king the PCs serve or someone similar, this sort of thing could be very important. For PC's in groups such as mine a mortal wound really should only serve as a motivation to get the necessary magical healing. But even in that regard its helpful to have something of a mechanic to cover this.

 

In principal I agree with you. This is probably the sort of direction I would like to head in.

[Lucius]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

You can design attacks ....

 

I don't think GeekySpaz is looking to "design attacks." He's talking about a slow acting but mortal wound as a natural result of normal combat.

 

That doesn't seem so much to be a mechanics issue' date=' but rather a plot point issue.[/quote']

 

For some games it would be appropriate to have a mechanic, just as we already have the mechanics for Impairing and Disabling wounds.

 

In fact, the rulebook says that an Impairing blow to the head, chest, stomache or vitals could leave an NPC "dead or dying." It doesn't specify how long it may take to die...

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if we're going to move on to things like rules for whether wounds become infected....

[GeekySpaz]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

I don't think GeekySpaz is looking to "design attacks." He's talking about a slow acting but mortal wound as a natural result of normal combat.

 

Precisely

 

For some games it would be appropriate to have a mechanic, just as we already have the mechanics for Impairing and Disabling wounds.

 

In fact, the rulebook says that an Impairing blow to the head, chest, stomache or vitals could leave an NPC "dead or dying." It doesn't specify how long it may take to die...

 

Good point. I had overlooked that particular aspect of what is written about impairing and disabling wounds.

 

Lucius Alexander

 

The palindromedary wonders if we're going to move on to things like rules for whether wounds become infected....

 

For the grittiest of campaigns (and ONLY for them), why not.

[The_Patriot]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

Again, I'm not talking about how to build a specific power. The reason I started this thread was more to discuss this aspect of the nature of damage in RPGs, and maybe come up with a house rule for HERO that reflects this.

 

For example a rough idea (and I just came up with this now so its not been thought out fully) is any impairing or disabling wound to the the torso or head has a chance (perhaps determined with a CON roll) of being mortal. If the wound is mortal then the character makes a CON roll every hour and if he fails the roll he looses another body. Maybe with a mercy rule, pass 5 con rolls in a row and the wound wasn't mortal after all and you can start healing.

 

Well you my apologies then. How I handle mortal injuries is by using what is plausible in the setting and run it that way. I don't use mechanics for this specific effect since I let the plot determine what happens. If it deals with the death of a PC I make sure to talk to the player to see if it's okay with his/her character to die in this manner. I handle all character deaths the same way by talking with the player first. My style of GMing is big on the heroic action, but take the player and their character to the edge of where death is certain. Do I ever go through with it? Nope, since it ruins the fun for the player unless they want their character to die. Mortal wounds are fine for me, but only with player consent and it fits with the story.

[GeekySpaz]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

Well you my apologies then.

 

No need to apologize. I probably should have been more clear from the start as to what I was getting at.

[prestidigitator]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

Oh. As for the circumstances needed to heal such a mortal wound, I'd suggest either an appropriate Physical Transform or a big enough Healing to completely heal the Body of the original wound. Whether or not something like the Can Heal Limbs Adder (or even the Resurrection Adder) would be necessary on the Healing would depend on the game and setting. The right equipment, supplies, and really good medical Science Skills rolls for surgery might also substitute.

[Utech]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

Just a thought:

Rule that whenever characters enter combat, they focus their will on survival. As a result, they instantly gain X number of BODY for free. Should they pass out, fall asleep, or somehow be distracted or driven to despair, however, that X number of BODY disappears. This may well leave your character dying.

 

Characters who start a combat with any amount of BODY loss must make a BODY roll at -1/point of BODY lost or fail to psyche themselves up (and thus receive the X number of BODY for free).

[Fearghus]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

I have never seen any game system that has such a rule in it, but I have had a GM allow a player make in HERO terms an ego roll to allow him to keep functioning even with negative body. Think of it kinda like pushing where you are so devoted to keeping going that you just won't fall over. Beyond that I agree with other posters and I would just hand wave it if it is important to your story that someone functions as the walking dead for an encounter, then just let that happen.

[IndianaJoe3]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

Just a thought:

Rule that whenever characters enter combat, they focus their will on survival. As a result, they instantly gain X number of BODY for free. Should they pass out, fall asleep, or somehow be distracted or driven to despair, however, that X number of BODY disappears. This may well leave your character dying.

 

If you want to model this as a power, a Boost to BODY would work well.

[Ockham's Spoon]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

Personally I would treat a mortal wound as a plot point, but I can see there might be some appeal for having a mechanic for it. I would suggest giving all combatants 1d6 Luck and 1d6 Unluck as an Everyman "Skill" that pertains only to combat. If they receive an impairing wound, roll for both Luck and Unluck. A successful Luck roll makes the impairing wound only a disabling one. A "successful" Unluck roll means a mortal wound - the character will die without extraordinary intervention in some time period defined by the GM. If both rolls are successful they cancel each other out. This gives you a mechanic for mortal wounds, although they aren't going to happen very often (and they shouldn't given how likely they would realistically be).

[prestidigitator]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

I have never seen any game system that has such a rule in it' date=' but I have had a GM allow a player make in HERO terms an ego roll to allow him to keep functioning even with negative body. Think of it kinda like pushing where you are so devoted to keeping going that you just won't fall over. Beyond that I agree with other posters and I would just hand wave it if it is important to your story that someone functions as the walking dead for an encounter, then just let that happen.[/quote']

The house rule would have to be that you CAN'T keep functioning at negative Body, or that you need an Ego roll to do it. There's nothing about having negative Body in the RAW that keeps you from acting; it's negative STUN that does that.

[NuSoardGraphite]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

Again, I'm not talking about how to build a specific power. The reason I started this thread was more to discuss this aspect of the nature of damage in RPGs, and maybe come up with a house rule for HERO that reflects this.

 

For example a rough idea (and I just came up with this now so its not been thought out fully) is any impairing or disabling wound to the the torso or head has a chance (perhaps determined with a CON roll) of being mortal. If the wound is mortal then the character makes a CON roll every hour and if he fails the roll he looses another body. Maybe with a mercy rule, pass 5 con rolls in a row and the wound wasn't mortal after all and you can start healing.

 

This is how I would handle it. It would be the result of a failed CON roll after receiving a disabling wound to the head or vitals. The character doesn't die instantly (if they haven't yet hit their death threshold in negative Body) but they will die eventually. For each step on the time chart, the character has to make a CON roll. However every time the character makes the roll, apply a cumulative -1 penalty to the CON roll. An extremely lucky character can last for a year or so, but eventually, they will die.

 

I would allow for a chance to be saved. The surgery roll to save the character is at a penalty of -10. Almost impossible for the average surgeon. Find the "best of the best in the world" and you might have a chance....

[dmjalund]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

The more advanced meditech you have available the less likely you will end up with a mortal wound. It would not be very uncommon in a gritty fantasy/historical game. less common than that in modern times. Even less common in the typical Cyberpunk or SF setting.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

Yeah, even with full optional rules being used, HERO doesn't really address secondary wound effects much. If I wanted that level of grit, I'd certainly tie it to the Impairing & Disabling rules (as I've done in the past when adding Shock rules). I've actually been pondering the best way to handle wound infections recently, so this thread is of particular interest at the moment.

[AmadanNaBriona]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

This is how I would handle it. It would be the result of a failed CON roll after receiving a disabling wound to the head or vitals. The character doesn't die instantly (if they haven't yet hit their death threshold in negative Body) but they will die eventually. For each step on the time chart, the character has to make a CON roll. However every time the character makes the roll, apply a cumulative -1 penalty to the CON roll. An extremely lucky character can last for a year or so, but eventually, they will die.

 

I would allow for a chance to be saved. The surgery roll to save the character is at a penalty of -10. Almost impossible for the average surgeon. Find the "best of the best in the world" and you might have a chance....

 

Nice system. I'd probably do mods to the surgery roll based on the would and step on the time chart, but that's just a style thing.

I'd Rep ya, but I've gotta spread it around.

[Ragitsu]

Re: Mortal Wounds

 

GURPS has rules for "Mortal Wounds" that are very hard to survive (not impossible, partially because despite the system's overall realism, *something* has to favor the heroes. Still, injuries that can't be healed are MOSTLY something the GM handles on their own), but even if you do so, you roll against HT, and, if it fails, you lose a point of HT or gain a suitable Disadvantage.