Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

[RJB]

Why am I reviving an old thread? Two reasons. First, Im in the hospital with pneumonia and Im bored. Second, when I argued I naturally advocated for my hero, as others did for theirs. It made for a lively, contentious debate, but did it reach any truths everyone could agree on? I dont think so. So I decided to compare the two men using only facts that have to be true. And let me be clear about this. Their respective deeds mean nothing. Doc and Bruce are known and measurable quanties. Their foes are not. Ever see the episode of Mythbusters where they try to find out how much force it takes to knock out a polar bear? And you never will.

 

BIRTH AND EARLY TRAINING

 

Doc is trained from birth,and could even have benefited from pre-natal therapy. Not impossible. He grows up to be aprox 6'8'', and is trained in numerous arts, sciences, physical fitness, and combat abilities. He gets the right amount of study, the right amount of exercise, and the right amount of sleep which keeps his mind sharp and immune system finely tuned. He is far ahead of Bruce Wayne in training. But dont count Bruce out! He would approach training with a single-minded fanatical obsession that would intimidate Captain Ahab! Reasoned training is no match for freaking nuts motivation. Bruce could and likely did learn more and train harder than Doc and by the time they are adults, Bruce might not have the same education, but probably had the same physical body (they did similar work) with the only difference being height. So who is better in a fight?

 

PHYSICAL PROWESS: STRENGTH AND AGILITY

 

So who is stronger? Doc has greater height=greater mass=more muscle. Doc wins. End of story. Dont count Bruce out though. Youve seen this before: Batman is in a warehouse facing tommy-gun wielding crooks. What happens? He charges, they shoot, he reaches them without EVER being shot, and kicks butt. Never fails. Doc on the other hand wears bullet proof clothing. Why? Because he knows he cant dodge a bullet. Doc would raise his hands and surrender and hope for an oppurtunity. Doc would have excellent reflexes, but Bruce Wayne has a reaction time that is barely even human. So how might they do in a cage match? Bruces superior speed means he goes first and hits every time. Doc would be able to retaliate and hit most of the time. Docs superior body could take more damage, which is good for him beause he WOULD be taking more damage due to Bruces speed. Who wins? at this point its too close to call. So what about training?

 

Tactics

 

Doc Savage knows boxing, wrestling, brawling, judo, and has a knowledge of anatomy that allows him to do everything from paralyzing a limb to the vulcan nerve pinch. Batman was basicly a boxer until the mid seventies when DC decide to cash in on the Bruce Lee craze, and insisted that Batman was one of the great martial artists. In the style in which he is portrayed, it doesnt seem like it. There are punches and kicks and throws. He has been know to 'karate chop' people by surprise to bring them down, and blocks very well. But give him the benefit of the doubt. Let us say that he has learned every martial art skill known. So we have two martial artists, each of whom have a skill the other cant match. So who wins? Batman has the advantage. With his superior speed, he goes first. If he can drop Doc immediately its game over. If he cant, he would face a retaliatory strike that, while perhaps not as skillful, would hit exactly the right place for maximum effect.

 

Speculation

 

So in a cage match, who wins? If I were a bookie I would give Batman 6-5 for the first five rounds. If it isnt over by then its Doc 8-7 as his superior physique would wear Batman down. One other thing. Doc has no weaknesses. Batman has one Achilles heel and its a big one. If Doc ever got hold of that cape...

 

Comments are welcome!

[RexMundi]

Re: Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

 

Doc wins, BUT, we are talking about The Bat-Man here so in a sense, an Heir to the Doc Savage Legacy. So Doc will Win, but he will definitly know he was in a fight. Bat-Man could pull off a few victories, but mostly because Batman WILL cheat if he has to.

 

They both wear Bullet Proof clothing though. Tough to book Odds for that fight, since you have to decide, WHICH batman you are going to use.

 

~Rex....sides with Doc, though is a Bat-Fan of long standings.

[The Main Man]

Re: Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

 

I find part of the problem is pinning down which exact Doc Savage is fighting which exact Batman. If it's The Bat-Man, then I totally side with Doc, but if it's Batman, say, now, then I find myself hardpressed to side against the Dark Knight.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

 

So I decided to compare the two men using only facts that have to be true. And let me be clear about this. Their respective deeds mean nothing. Doc and Bruce are known and measurable quanties. Their foes are not.

 

I'm afraid I have real issues with this point. The "measurable" abilities of Doc Savage and Batman vary greatly depending on the needs of the story they appear in. Their feats are the only benchmarks available to compare them; and I noticed that you yourself resorted to a "feat" in your own comparison, the example of Batman in a room full of tommygunners (whose competence, by your own admission, is not measurable). I also noticed your training and martial-arts exceptions to the comparison in favor of Batman, which appear to contradict the factual precedents you cite immediately before them.

 

Please understand, I mean no disrespect; but you chose to approach the topic from the viewpoint of "facts that have to be true," yet your argument appears to be colored by subjective favoritism (consciously or not). Doc and Bats are unquestionably the very best of the "purely human" in their respective eras. By your own standards, any other judgement is open to interpretation.

[Tasha]

Re: Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

 

Also, I think that the genre has much to do with the capabilites of both characters. Doc is a pulp hero. He is grounded more in 'reality' than the comic hero Batman is. Place Batman in Doc's pulp world and with the genre conventions of his world and Doc would win. Heck, most of the reason given above for Batman winning are due to genre differences. (ie In comics it's common for Martial artists to dodge bullets, In Pulp books one cannot dodge bullets which is more realistic)

 

I really like both characters, though I find myself liking Doc better for his not having the emo angst that Batman cloaks himself with most of the time.

 

Doc has a training regimen that is unmatched by most Comic Heroes/Villains (perhaps only matched by Deathstroke). It's easy to overlook how this intense ongoing training can effect someone. Batman seems to have his skills, but he goes out each night to use them. He doesn't seem to be portrayed as waking up, training, then getting on with his day. Doc is portrayed in just that light.

 

Assuming that Doc knows Batman's rep and vice versa. I still think that Doc would win in a fight. Batman would try to cheat, but Doc is great at being able to see those things coming and thinking his way out of said trap/gimmick.

 

Of course the real answer to this is. Doc Savage would win in his own book/Comic (after a long fight where Batman would nearly win)and Batman would win in his Book/Comic(after a long fight where Doc would nearly win). That's the way these things go. It's how books are sold.

[dmjalund]

Re: Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

 

Batman has removed his cape when it would get in the way

[RexMundi]

Re: Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

 

Also, I think that the genre has much to do with the capabilites of both characters. Doc is a pulp hero. He is grounded more in 'reality' than the comic hero Batman is. Place Batman in Doc's pulp world and with the genre conventions of his world and Doc would win. Heck, most of the reason given above for Batman winning are due to genre differences. (ie In comics it's common for Martial artists to dodge bullets, In Pulp books one cannot dodge bullets which is more realistic)

 

I really like both characters, though I find myself liking Doc better for his not having the emo angst that Batman cloaks himself with most of the time.

 

Doc has a training regimen that is unmatched by most Comic Heroes/Villains (perhaps only matched by Deathstroke). It's easy to overlook how this intense ongoing training can effect someone. Batman seems to have his skills, but he goes out each night to use them. He doesn't seem to be portrayed as waking up, training, then getting on with his day. Doc is portrayed in just that light.

 

Assuming that Doc knows Batman's rep and vice versa. I still think that Doc would win in a fight. Batman would try to cheat, but Doc is great at being able to see those things coming and thinking his way out of said trap/gimmick.

 

Of course the real answer to this is. Doc Savage would win in his own book/Comic (after a long fight where Batman would nearly win)and Batman would win in his Book/Comic(after a long fight where Doc would nearly win). That's the way these things go. It's how books are sold.

 

DC of course has already put Batman and Doc Savage in the same Universe, heh, without short changing either. The first time Bruce Wayne meets Doc Savage is priceless.

 

~Rex

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

 

Batman has removed his cape when it would get in the way

 

For the most part it isn't depicted as getting in the way, because that wouldn't be in-genre. It's the same comic-book physics that keeps Wonder Woman's bustier up despite having no support in the back.

[OddHat]

Re: Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

 

Thematically, Bruce inherited a lot from Doc, as did Clark Kent. The obsessive self improvement (though that has usually just been back story for Bruce), the gadgets, much of the code, the wealth used to pursue crime fighting, the charity work (done out of costume in Bruce's case, and again more in the background).

 

I'd probably write the story with the Bruce loses Round One, wins Round Two, realizes he has been tricked into fighting Doc and teams up with him in Round Three format. It follows the tropes well enough, even if it short changes Doc a bit.

[Lord Liaden]

Re: Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

 

I have noticed that Doc Savage pulls a lot more of the traditional "strongman" feats than Batman does: snapping chains, smashing doors, lifting heavy weights effortlessly. Bats typically bypasses such impediments through skill rather than force. In that respect Doc's closer to a proto-Superman.

[RexMundi]

Re: Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

 

For the most part it isn't depicted as getting in the way' date=' because that wouldn't be in-genre. It's the same comic-book physics that keeps Wonder Woman's bustier up despite having no support in the back. [/quote']

 

Hey, we're talking about the woman with the INVISIBLE jet......Methinks that could take care of a few other "support" issues. As for the Bat Cape, there are many reasons Batman likes it. It breaks up his Outline, making it harder to actually Hit/See him. It makes him scary, and it's also bullet proof and flame retardent not to mention all the other properties (Moon Knight Glider action) they've been stacking on to it lately.

 

He has ditched the cape a few times though when it became useful (like a lizard tale) to do so. Wildcat, has also demonstrated to Batman the problems with wearing and relying on a cape. That fight was also a good example of a Vs. (Was Titled, the Bat vs the Big Cat), as well as things like Distinctive Feature Fighting Style and Analyze as well as Combat sense, heh....

 

Doc is still going to win. It's not just a matter of versions either. Bruce Wayne is Batman, or even The Bat-Man if you want to go back far enough, but Doc Savage, is Superman.

 

~Rex

[OddHat]

Re: Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

 

I have noticed that Doc Savage pulls a lot more of the traditional "strongman" feats than Batman does: snapping chains' date=' smashing doors, lifting heavy weights effortlessly. Bats typically bypasses such impediments through skill rather than force. In that respect Doc's closer to a proto-Superman.[/quote']

 

Sure, there are plenty of strongman tricks in Doc Savage, and his massive size and incredible physique are core character traits. Superman got some of that from Doc. Batman is meant to be freakishly strong (through training) in most versions, but does run into "normal" men who are stronger. OTOH, I'm not sure that's an advantage for Doc; Batman runs into men who are stronger for the story purpose of being shown to overcome them through skill and trickery.

 

I can't recall a Doc Savage story where he met someone who was out and out stronger (though I haven't read all of them).

[csyphrett]

Re: Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

 

Doc has been shown to dodge bullets when he knows they are coming. The armor is for when he doesnt know they're coming. Batman might have an advantage if he stays at long range, uses sniper tactics. Anything in arm reach, I would have to say he's toast.

CES

[RexMundi]

Re: Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

 

Sure, there are plenty of strongman tricks in Doc Savage, and his massive size and incredible physique are core character traits. Superman got some of that from Doc. Batman is meant to be freakishly strong (through training) in most versions, but does run into "normal" men who are stronger. OTOH, I'm not sure that's an advantage for Doc; Batman runs into men who are stronger for the story purpose of being shown to overcome them through skill and trickery.

 

I can't recall a Doc Savage story where he met someone who was out and out stronger (though I haven't read all of them).

 

John Sunlight is really the only thing short of a Gorilla or a polar Bear that's rivaled Doc for Strength. Batman, runs into folkls stronger then him all the time. Sometimes the writers remember the simple basic truth, if all other things are equal, the deciding factor will be strength (Take Batman's last loss to Deathstroke for example....).....

 

Batman cheats to win a lot of times, Yet when he hasn't been able to, he has lost and lost badly.

 

~Rex

[Guest steamteck]

Re: Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

 

I can't recall a Doc Savage story where he met someone who was out and out stronger (though I haven't read all of them).

 

In the Mindless Monsters, there was a chemical formula which made people into beastly intelligent superstrong brutes. Under the influence of this drug. normals were stronger than Doc. Otherwise he was like early Tarzan clearly far stronger than any man he met( faster also)

[Ranxerox]

Re: Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

 

Heh! The original poll currently shows the contest as tied 23 to 23 with 8 voting for pie. If RJB has changed his mind that means that the actual score is 24 to 22 in The Batman's favor.

[dmjalund]

Re: Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

 

Heh! The original poll currently shows the contest as tied 23 to 23 with 8 voting for pie. If RJB has changed his mind that means that the actual score is 24 to 22 in The Batman's favor.

Yay verily! Pie will beat them both to a pulp!

[Doc Shadow]

Re: Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

 

For the most part it isn't depicted as getting in the way' date=' because that wouldn't be in-genre. It's the same comic-book physics that keeps Wonder Woman's bustier up despite having no support in the back. [/quote']

 

The bustier has all the support it needs. It's super-glued to her boobs!

[BlackSword]

Re: Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

 

The bustier has all the support it needs. It's super-glued to her boobs!

 

Well that's what happens when Superman gets excited.

[Doc Shadow]

Re: Revisit: Doc savage vs Batman. I changed my mind.

 

I didn't actually mean it that way.