AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

[GAZZA]

OK, so, you can take AE Radius. For an additional +1/4, you can make it "accurate" so that it only targets a single character.

 

This is somewhat similar, thinks I, to the old AE: One Hex deal. Since the previous editions hexes were 2m in diameter, this is almost exactly the same as a 1m radius. Fair enough so far - certainly you can fit more than 1 human in a 1m radius (in the old rules you could fit 2 people in a hex; if you assume that humans are 1m x 1m x 2m, you can possibly fit 3 in a 1m radius - 3.141592653589... - if you can stack them appropriately ).

 

Now, in 6e, the average human presumably takes up 1m x 1m x 2m. (Can I just say in passing - why has Hero always used metric? Not that I'm complaining - I'm an Aussie, those are the units I'm used to - but as I understand it Hero Games is a US company right?) This means that if you use a 0.5m radius power - I assume that's allowed, right? It says "up to 4m radius", after all - then it basically targets a single person anyway.

 

Possible counterarguments I can see:

- "You can't have a 0.5m radius area effect". Well, fair enough, but I can't see any compelling reason not to allow it. I mean, you're getting less than you could have, after all.

 

- "What about dudes that are smaller than that? Your power would still target more than 1". This is true, of course, but is it really worth an extra +1/4 to deal with such a relatively uncommon situation? I would have thought +0 would cover it; it seems approximately equal to "STUN only" (you're giving up the possibility of hitting a 4m radius in exchange for not hurting anyone you don't want to hurt).

 

- "What about Grabbed dudes?" It's not really clear to me that if you've Grabbed someone you really ought to be able to target them without some risk of hitting the other guy. But even if you can, Grabbed dudes are already lowered DCV, which means you don't need Accurate as much to hit them in the first place.

 

I'm just not really seeing why "Accurate" is worth a +1/2 advantage. Let's take a 10d6 Blast (50 Active Points). If you apply AE to that at the +1/4 level, it costs you an extra 12 points; you could instead get +6 CSLs. In a lot of Champions games, you'll often face a better than DCV 9, so it's a good deal to buy at +1/4. On the other hand, at +1/2, you'll at 20 more points, or the equivalent of 10 CSLs. A 13 DCV would be somewhat unusually high - right at the top end of a Standard Superhero game. It is true that the CSL version can be Dodged or Blocked, but it appears to be equally true that an Accurate attack, if missed, runs the danger of hitting someone else as per the standard rules for missed AE attacks.

 

Generally speaking, my experience is that both PCs and NPCs do not "clump" in combat much, in part specifically to minimise the threat their enemies AE attacks pose. You can often fire a 4m radius AE targetted in such a way that it will only hit one target; you can almost always do this with a 1m radius power. Any GM that felt the 1m radius was being abused (and we're assuming he's disallowed the 0.5m radius) would struggle to crack down; sure, villains can grab innocent bystanders to use as "shields" (though they have to make sure they're surrounded by such bystanders, or they have their back to a wall - very situational, in other words), but those bystanders would be at risk from a missed Accurate attack as well.

 

What am I missing? Why is the removal of the possibility to hit multiple targets not balanced with, basically, the removal of the possibility to hit multiple targets? After all, would we say that "STUN only" for a Blast was worth a +1/4 advantage? These two may not be exactly the same thing, but they are clearly comparable; in the one case, the loss of functionality is deemed less than the gain from not hitting innocents (though again, if you miss, it would seem that Accurate attacks are still AEs, subject to the normal miss rules), while in the other case the loss of functionality (not just BODY, knockback too remember) is deemed balanced by the gain of not accidentally injuring your target.

[Hugh Neilson]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

Add to this the fact that an AoE 1 meter Accurate Non-Selective attack now costs the same +1/4 as AoE 1 meter, but requires a normal to hit roll for everyone in the area.

 

Part of the problem is that AoE does two things. First, it allows you to strike multiple targets. Second, it allows you to ignore their DCV. The second can be pretty powerful on its own.

 

I'm in agreement that I would typically just buy a 1 meter radius to hit a single target. Buying a larger radius and making it "accurate" seems like a neat way to pinpoint a single target, but I would rather have seen pricing for AoE Selective that retains attacking a DCV of 3. Breaking AoE down into:

 

- size of area attacked

- choice of who in the area is, and is not, targeted

- restricting how many targets in the area can be attacked

- attacking normal DCV or attacking DCV 3

 

would seem like a better approach.

[Killer Shrike]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

I don't have the books handy, but if I recall correctly the Accurate modifier is a way to basically build a power that ignores DCV vs. a single target rather than the normal usage of AoE which is to affect an area.

 

It's a very metagamed rules artifact IMO that borrows a mechanical benefit (attack vs DCV 3) from a modifier originally intended to do something else (affect an area and everything in it).

 

A better rules design question to me is shouldn't this just be a separate advantage all unto itself, priced accordingly, rather than lumped in under AoE?

 

In 6e it does seem marginalized due to the restructuring of the hex scale. I suppose the determining factor is if you want to rule out edge cases where even a very small "AoE" might have some collateral or unintended damage.

[Sean Waters]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

Probably best if I address this one with an example:

 

Let us assume, for the sake of argument that your team mate, Elastigirl, is wrestling with the villainess Pervinata. In Jello. They struggle titanically against each other, writhing and slipping about.

 

You watch, breathless, for some time, desperate to dive in and, er, help, but you know that the Titanic Two would crush you, as your powers are not so physical, but run to energy projection. Yes, they would crush you. Under their writhing bodies. In Jello.

 

You desperately want to, er, help, but you are worried that you might hit Elastigirl, and then Pervinata will grab you and crush you, and cover you. In Jello.

 

After another few minutes of wondering whether it might just be worth taking the chance, you remember the little used 23rd slot of your multipower - your accurate blast. This allows you to hit only what you want to hit, or not hit at all, and makes it extremely likely that you will hit.

 

Energy erupts from you in staccato bursts and, within seconds, both of their costumes are in tatters, but they are completely unharmed, and continuing to wrestle. You'd decided it was best not to risk a premature ending, although it was a very close thing.

 

You reach for the popcorn...

 

So, is that clear now?

[prestidigitator]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

I kinda enjoy and like to play up the fact that you can Dive for Cover out of the area and avoid the Accurate attack completely. In fact, personally I make it easier to DFC from an Accurate AoE attack than from a normal attack; I require that DFC from a non-area attack actually get you out of range (for HTH attacks, outside reach plus whatever combat movement the attacker has left to make/complete a Half-Move before attacking) or behind cover to work. To DFC out of the effect of an Accurate AoE attack you just have to dive far enough to leave the radius of the AoE. That may be non-standard, but IMO it lends a nice feel to the mechanic and feels fair and balanced.

[Chris Goodwin]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

Now, in 6e, the average human presumably takes up 1m x 1m x 2m. (Can I just say in passing - why has Hero always used metric? Not that I'm complaining - I'm an Aussie, those are the units I'm used to - but as I understand it Hero Games is a US company right?) This means that if you use a 0.5m radius power - I assume that's allowed, right? It says "up to 4m radius", after all - then it basically targets a single person anyway.

 

Possible counterarguments I can see:

- "You can't have a 0.5m radius area effect". Well, fair enough, but I can't see any compelling reason not to allow it. I mean, you're getting less than you could have, after all.

 

I'd say yes, you can have a 0.5m radius. You could even have a 0.1 meter radius if you were so inclined. Given the official game measurement is meters and not hexes, and officially combat is gridless, there's no reason not to allow fractions of a meter.

[Xavier Onassiss]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

I don't have the books handy, but if I recall correctly the Accurate modifier is a way to basically build a power that ignores DCV vs. a single target rather than the normal usage of AoE which is to affect an area.

 

It's a very metagamed rules artifact IMO that borrows a mechanical benefit (attack vs DCV 3) from a modifier originally intended to do something else (affect an area and everything in it).

 

A better rules design question to me is shouldn't this just be a separate advantage all unto itself, priced accordingly, rather than lumped in under AoE?

 

In 6e it does seem marginalized due to the restructuring of the hex scale. I suppose the determining factor is if you want to rule out edge cases where even a very small "AoE" might have some collateral or unintended damage.

 

This makes MASSIVE amounts of sense. Repped.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

I found that this mechanic allows for the niche build of "auto-hit" atacks, which is pretty streamlined. And I do find value in reducing any martial arts character down to DCV 3, no blocks or dodges. But that doesn't make it anymore right or wrong, just a personal preference.

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

Whoops, shoulda double check the rules first. At least according to 5th ed rev, accurate can be dodged. (pg. 248) And dcv levels can be only added when the character dodges. Still, its not a bad deal. Imo.

[Ice9]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

I find Accurate is often more useful when combined with a large AoE. For instance, a 32m Radius Accurate attack is unavoidable for many characters - albeit expensive.

And AoE Line + Accurate is an interesting method for making an attack semi-Ranged.

[Neverway]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

I find Accurate is often more useful when combined with a large AoE. For instance' date=' a 32m Radius Accurate attack is unavoidable for many characters - albeit expensive.[/quote']

 

I was going to point out the utility of a large radius AoE + Accurate, but you got their first. Mind Scan to locate a target anywhere on Earth and an AoE 2m Radius Megascale (1m = 10,000 km) attack will let you hit anyone on Earth. Well, almost. There's a small circle on the opposite side of the Earth you won't reach (circumference of the Earth = 40,075.16 km, leaving a 75 km circle in the Indian Ocean (from here) uncovered). This works great for some types of magic (e.g., simulating the Law of Contagion).

 

 

And AoE Line + Accurate is an interesting method for making an attack semi-Ranged.

In 6e, you can only apply Accurate to a radius.

[The Main Man]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

I'd like to take this time to clarify that AoE technically only affects DCV 3 when you target a space that a target occupies - you actually do have to hit a target's DCV if you directly attack them. That said, make an AoE large enough and it doesn't really matter. As for why Accurate is worth another +1/4, I'd imagine it has to do with game balance - an extra +1/4 eats up Active Points and Damage Classes in campaigns that place limits upon them. That value was +0 in 5e because the extra +1/4 would not make it a worthy expense.

[prestidigitator]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

Yeah, the Dodge rules for Accurate AoE never made much sense to me. I guess Dodging make the attack roll vs. DCV 6 instead of DCV 3, but since the attack roll is to place the area, I've never liked that much. I just straight up don't allow Dodge in that circumstance. If you want to avoid an Accurate AoE, or any AoE for that matter, use Dive for Cover. The Accurate part is to make things easier for the attacker; it doesn't matter one way or the other for the intended target. YMMV.

[GAZZA]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

Yeah' date=' the Dodge rules for Accurate AoE never made much sense to me.[/quote']

Can't dodge an Accurate attack in 6e anyway.

 

Thank you for everyone that suggested the utility of Accurate for large radius attacks. I agree that's a definitely much better deal - essentially, smack someone so that they can't even dive for cover.

[dmjalund]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

Desolid - only to avoid AoE Accurate attacks (-2)

[GAZZA]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

Sure, if you don't mind a +2 Affects Physical World on all your other stuff.

[prestidigitator]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

I was going to point out the utility of a large radius AoE + Accurate' date=' but you got their first. Mind Scan to locate a target anywhere on Earth and an AoE 2m Radius Megascale (1m = 10,000 km) attack will let you hit anyone on Earth. Well, almost. There's a small circle on the opposite side of the Earth you won't reach (circumference of the Earth = 40,075.16 km, leaving a 75 km circle in the Indian Ocean (from here) uncovered). This works great for some types of magic (e.g., simulating the Law of Contagion).[/quote']

Except AoE Radius is a sphere, so you really only need to have an AoE radius that is the diameter of the Earth (about 13,000km) to cover the whole planet.

[dmjalund]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

Sure' date=' if you don't mind a +2 Affects Physical World on all your other stuff.[/quote']but it's like a super-dodge where you don't get to attack

[Neverway]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

Except AoE Radius is a sphere' date=' so you really only need to have an AoE radius that is the diameter of the Earth (about 13,000km) to cover the whole planet.[/quote']

 

Indeed, you can go through the Earth instead of following the surface. The most embarrassing part is that I've made the very same point with regards to a Megascale Teleport.

[prestidigitator]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

Oh. Hmm. Now that we're discussing it, though, it might need some level of Indirect or something on it to, or one could argue that the Earth shields most of the AoE volume from the origin point. That's probably going to have to be a call made by each GM, but you'd be safer to include it.

[pinecone]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

Desolid - only to avoid AoE Accurate attacks (-2)

 

Braclet made of Impervium! +25 Resistant Def Only vs Accurate attacks(-2?) 25 pts?

[Ninja-Bear]

Re: AE Accurate War! Ugh ... what is it good for? (Absolutely nothing?)

 

I'd like to take this time to clarify that AoE technically only affects DCV 3 when you target a space that a target occupies - you actually do have to hit a target's DCV if you directly attack them.

 

No, you do NOT technically attack the space the target occupies, you are changing the target's DCV to 3. Read the part where the question is asked if you can hit a specific target, such as leg or arm, and Steve says that you add that difficulty to the BASE DCV of 3, which negates alot of the advantage. The confusing part of accurate is even though it is an AoE, it is a special case which doesn't follow the general rule of AoE.