Should This Be Allowed? (Detect Minds)

[Gary]

Why don't you make it a probationary power? Allow it for a 2-3 month trial period and determine in play whether it's too powerful for the points spent.

[McCoy]

Originally posted by Christougher

This, and a later comment about no Stealth or Concealment make this a game breaker for me. Instantly and automatically, without fooling, be able to identify someone and break a secret ID? Nuh uh.

Does that mean you don't allow discrimitory smell? Logan knew who Spider-Man was on their first meeting. "You got your Dad's scent."

 

Don't think I'll allow Detect Mind as an ID breaker unless there is something very distinctive, like Dax from DS9 (two minds in one body).

 

And darkness, flash, and invisability can all be bought affecting the mental sense group.

[Pteryx]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

Since this detect is defined as a mental power it would function in the same way - the mentalist would have to see the target in order to detect the mind.

 

So this would let the mentalist note that the guy in front of him is actually an automaton, or that the statue in front of him actually has a human mind, but it would not let them detect an invisible person.

 

There's a difference between Line of Sight and actually seeing somebody. As far as I'm concerned, if you can use a targeting sense of any sort to recognize a mind and you could see it if other powers weren't interfering, that'd be good enough for me. And I might even be more lenient than that. But this Detect would definitely not have a range better than Sight like Mind Scan does.

 

Personally, I'd be fine with the basic idea of a targeting Detect Minds; as mentioned above, it's a pretty typical fictional ability. It's not the LoS issue that concerns me... it's that Analyze adder. While Discriminatory would just say "This is an old woman", Analyze would in my view say enough to tread on Telepathy's domain. -- Pteryx

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Trebuchet

I'd allow such a Detect, but it would have significant restrictions. Detect Mind would allow you to know something with a mind is near (LOS maybe). Discriminating might tell you if it's a man, a dog, or a computer. Analyse would permit you to know it's a man, and possibly how intelligent he is or if he's sane. I would probably never allow it to determine actual identity. Want a Targeting Sense? Buy Mind Scan.

What is targeting sense in the books for?

[Dust Raven]

Re: Should This Be Allowed? (Detect Minds)

 

Originally posted by Ellis

Detect Minds (Mental Group), 0 Phase Sense, Ranged, Discriminatory, Analyze, 360 Degree Sense, Targetting

 

This Power is actually in the Champions book, though not with as many Adders. Since it's not N-Ray, it can't be used through certain barriers, say solid walls. It might work through smoke and fog though. I'd almost run it as hearing though, but can only target things in direct LOS.

 

The Analyze Adder should never duplicate the effects of any other Mental Power. It can't read anything of the targets thoughts, psychosis or anything else. It should be able to positively identify any previously encountered mind, and tell (roughly) what the subjects INT, EGO, Mental Defense are and if the subject has Mental Powers (but only if such things would be an aspect of the character's mind, magic spells or funky foci represented by such Powers shouldn't be noticed).

[Agent X]

Re: Re: Should This Be Allowed? (Detect Minds)

 

Originally posted by Dust Raven

This Power is actually in the Champions book, though not with as many Adders. Since it's not N-Ray, it can't be used through certain barriers, say solid walls. It might work through smoke and fog though. I'd almost run it as hearing though, but can only target things in direct LOS.

 

The Analyze Adder should never duplicate the effects of any other Mental Power. It can't read anything of the targets thoughts, psychosis or anything else. It should be able to positively identify any previously encountered mind, and tell (roughly) what the subjects INT, EGO, Mental Defense are and if the subject has Mental Powers (but only if such things would be an aspect of the character's mind, magic spells or funky foci represented by such Powers shouldn't be noticed).

Yeah, it's a useful power that does different things than mind scan. That you can buy targeting sense with is not a big deal. I'm stunned at how inflexible some people are when it comes to a game that advertises itself as being able to reflect anything in fiction.

[Doc Democracy]

Originally posted by Agent X

What is targeting sense in the books for?

 

To allow you to target stuff onviously!

 

This is a difficult question because of the way it approaches other existing powers. Mind Scan is the way you target people out of the line of sight for the use of mental powers. Allowing targetting would step on Mind Scans toes but I feel, like Agent X, that this power should be allowed.

 

Might I suggest that the targetting allows the use of non-mental powers to be targetted and that if the player wants to target mental powers that he use mind scan. He could even put them in a multipower - low level scans (detect minds) allow him to locate minds and shoot guns or direct remotes towards those people but does not allow him to utilise his mental capacities nor to be attacked that way.

 

A high level scan opens up both him and his target to the use of mental powers.

 

A reasonable compromise??

[Farkling]

Hmm...

 

My SuperSpies actually HAVE this on one of the characters. Slightly watered down, and better in playability than the Mind Scan he tried in the beginning.

 

Mind Scan simply does not have an allowance or a mechanic for "how many agents are in that building?" "I start Ego Attacking the minds near the hostages"

 

Detect Minds as built covers that...and I see no reason to have walls block it...penalize the PER roll, yes...block the sense? WHY? Game Balance? Why does Mind Scan work through walls then? Or Spatial Awareness? Or Clairsentience? Or X-Ray Vision? You can use Mental Powers against any target you can acquire with a targetting sense It says somewhere under "Mental Powers" that LOS is established by ANY targetting sense. I'm sure of that.

 

Mental Defense should allow for penalties to the PER roll...for that matter, a successful PER roll on a target with Mental Defense should just return "shielded" at the minimum...at best it should be "shielded" with whatever the Discriminatory would give...let the MD drop the Analyze adder, and only let the Discrim adder work with a GREAT PER roll.

 

And ye average SuperHero could determine the people in a building with X-Ray vision, AND target the characters with his TranSpatial Energy Conduit. What's the big deal on NOT allowing it? If the player ponied up for targetting, it should be targetting.

 

It works fine in my Superspies game, and I may let the mentalist in the Supers game have it when he gets his disadvantages under control...

 

As "Wheels" sits right now, he cannot sort the psychic noise roaring into his shields from his surroundings...eventually he will be able to, and Detect Minds is EXACTLY the power he'll desire. Area Effect Telepathy just doesn't do it, and neither does an Area Effect Mind Scan...

 

Jean Grey, Professor X, Phoenix, Doctor Strange, Doctor Occult, Doctor Fate, the Martian Manhunter, the Shroud, Dagger (well, she gets life force) and countless OTHER metahumans in comicdom have the ability to count minds and specific types of minds in a crowded area in seconds...what power do you hold up as able to DO that?

 

 

Apologies if I sound annoying...i'm suffering insomnia and not myself

[Talon]

This thread is doing a great job of spelling out the benefits and drawbacks of various interpretations of this power, which should make it much easier for the GM to decide what to do.

 

Going through walls: IMO, if a power goes through normal walls, it should then be stopped by something at least as common. Keep in mind that with Mind Scan, the target at least knows he's being targeted (and where the attacker is). With this power, the mentalist could look into the building where the bad guys are and just start blasting away with no fear of reprisal (and no need to make effect rolls, bypass Mental Defense, etc.).

 

At the very least, I would have Mental Defense provide a PER penalty -- at least -1 per 3 points, maybe as high as -1 per 1 point, so that anyone with mental shields is very hard to detect.

 

If the sense went through walls, I'd have it blocked by active mental auras (i.e., living minds) as well as significant psychic residue -- anywhere that's been inhabited for a while would probably be hard to see through, but places like warehouses would be easier unless something nasty had happened there. If the character doesn't want to be blocked by this stuff, he should buy N-Ray vision.

 

The one thing from my 4th Edition sense house rules that I wish had made it into 5th was an Advantage based on the commonality of the materials that blocked the sense.

[Peregrine]

Correct me if I'm wrong, buit doesn't Menton have a Detect Minds power with numerous adders?

[Lord Liaden]

Originally posted by Peregrine

Correct me if I'm wrong, buit doesn't Menton have a Detect Minds power with numerous adders?

 

Good catch. He does indeed, and it's even more versatile, having all of what Ellis's player wants, plus 360 Degree and Telescopic.

 

Mind you, Menton is supposedly the most powerful mentalist in the world, and a NPC villain. Not the most comforting precedent for giving such a Power to a PC.

[Lord Liaden]

FWIW, since Steve had written up this Power for a published character, I thought it would be fair to posit some of the questions raised here to him:

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8590

 

http://www.herogames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=8591

 

I found his description of Analyze for Detect Minds particularly illuminating, since the type of information he suggests it providing keeps it away from what Telepathy does, which was one of my primary concerns.

[Ellis]

Wow! I'm humbled at the responses and glad for the reply by Steve Long, too.

 

I'm probably going to have to sit down with the player and go over what his expectations for the character's abilities are.

 

My real main concerns are the Secret ID breaking, and the Occam's Razor of having this versus using Mind Scan. If we can come to an agreement on those, I could probably allow the power.

[Magmarock]

One other thing...

 

If a target has Invisibility to the mental group, then he wouldn't be seen at all by the PC doing the Detect Minds, right?

 

Also, I think the Mental Defense should give better protection from Detect Minds than just a penalty to the perception roll... maybe it should hide more of the initial information that would normally be gathered- make it cloudy or spotty.

 

Also regarding Steve Long's suggestion about Detect Minds: "That’s up to the GM, but in general things like the target’s INT and EGO, what Mental Powers the target has and how powerful they are, and so forth."

 

The information, if given out by the GM, shouldn't be handed to the PC in terms of "Oh, he has an 18 INT and a 23 EGO", nor should the powers be described in any other meta-gaming terminology (i.e. frameworks or source of powers). Better to say that one of the minds is far superior in intelligence or potental- this mind has a sense of superior willpower to it - far above the norm- Mensa-level intelligence- etc. No character should know the numbers that make up any individual, it's a necessary conceptual abstraction that we, the GMs & Players need to play the game and has no place in the game itself.

 

 

Mags

[prestidigitator]

Re: One other thing...

 

Originally posted by Magmarock

If a target has Invisibility to the mental group, then he wouldn't be seen at all by the PC doing the Detect Minds, right?

Yes, if this sense were part of the Mental Sense Group (which I think I would require as a GM in most cases). It could be defined as a Special Sense Group instead, in which case Invisibility would have to be bought to specifically block this power. This could make sense for some genres/game styles--probably in games where Mental Powers run rampant.

 

Remember that this power does have some kind of Line of Sight. Meaning you can't just say, "I'd like to find Jim, and I know he's somewhere in New York City." In order to do that with this power, there couldn't be anything in the way that might block it, it would probably have to be sped up (I forget the exact term--the adder that gives you x100 speed for analyzing something with a sense), and for sure it would need a lot of Telescopic. Then let's see you find someone anywhere on a planet with it. It ain't Mind Scan; not by a long shot.

 

Now, if you want to argue that Mental Defense should protect against this power, then I would argue that Mental Defense should keep you from establishing Line of Sight using normal sight. Doesn't normal sight circumvent MD, then? Remember that whatever Mental Power the character uses by establishing LoS with this sense is still going to have to deal with MD itself.

 

By the way, Concealment and Stealth could be used against this sense. Stealth, in particular, can potentially be used against all senses. It is either in the FAQ or in the Rules Questions Board where these skills are talked about vs. smell. It could make sense in some circumstances. For example, someone covering their tracks with a strong smelling perfume. I would say that as long as the target knows something about the sense being used, and/or minds and how they are detected in general (maybe if the target has any Mental Powers, or has Mind Scan specifically, or has KS: mental perception...), these skills could be used; the GM could also require some kind of tools/powers/circumstances for this (e.g. you have to have other minds about to hide among, or you need Telepathy...).

[dugfromthearth]

I would allow stealth to be used against it if the character had mental awareness and could thus sense their mind and tell if they were being mentally stealthy.

 

 

 

I think ultimately what this thread shows is that mind scan is bad. It should be bought as some form of sense using the sense building rules. Rather then having a sense building framework and then a crucially important sense that is legacy rules.

[zornwil]

I'd allow it but ensure that:

a) the analyze and discriminate do not intrude on the powers of Telepathy - just broad info, no thoughts, maybe identity for VERY well known minds - after all he's just scratching the surface, compared to Telepathy

that the power have some weakness, like N-Ray vision, or as I believe the book even mentions about Detect in general

c) I would really prefer it not be used for targetting, at least not without buying supplmenetary that does so (here's the scenario - "Hey, guy there with super-CV - the bad guy is on the other side of this glass, he's 5 feet over and 3 feet deep, so if you can just aim your crack shot there you got him." - now that could get abusive) - but then again, I might be convinced otherwise depending on the usage intended

 

I wouldn't limit it to LoS as some have suggested.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

I think ultimately what this thread shows is that mind scan is bad. It should be bought as some form of sense using the sense building rules. Rather then having a sense building framework and then a crucially important sense that is legacy rules.

I don't think bad. It just has its own place. It completely circumvents any kind of Line of Sight considerations, and can be used to find a specific mind among any number of others, but it requires an effect roll and is countered by Mental Defense. It has its place; it is just different, which is what many people are worried about.

[Farkling]

I retract my comments about Mental Defense affecting the PER rolls in view of Steve's contribution.

 

Stealth and Concealment WOULD work against this, provided the PC has a concept of where to hide...

 

(Stealth/Concealment in a crowd)

 

Mind Scan is for picking BOB out of a crowd. Detect Minds will tell you how BIG the crowd is, but finding BOB will take a perception roll of a different magnitude unless he sticks out like a sore thumb (psychically loud, vulnerable to mind scan, heavily shielded by static/gadget effects vs natural ability)

Think about the old "where's Waldo?" books, or spotting someone on the TV at the Superbowl...

Cover in this case becomes a modifier of "large amounts of minds present" - picture mental static as camoflauge clothes in the wild.

 

Those things have no effect on Mind Scan other than the Minds present in the search area. I think Mind Scan still deserves its own category...it is not completely broken. It's a supered version of Detect Mind I wish to locate.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Ellis

Wow! I'm humbled at the responses and glad for the reply by Steve Long, too.

 

I'm probably going to have to sit down with the player and go over what his expectations for the character's abilities are.

 

My real main concerns are the Secret ID breaking, and the Occam's Razor of having this versus using Mind Scan. If we can come to an agreement on those, I could probably allow the power.

It would only break secret IDs of very distinctive minds, assuming the player or character could make the right deductions from the sensory information.

[Ellis]

I opted to allow it, but the player and I had a long chat, in which we both went over what this does and doesn't do, in game, and why it isn't Mind Scan and Telepathy.

 

Thanks for all the help, everyone.

[Farkling]

Hey...no problem...it's nice having an extra view of the power we hashed out for our game...

[DoctorItron]

Originally posted by Christougher

This, and a later comment about no Stealth or Concealment make this a game breaker for me. Instantly and automatically, without fooling, be able to identify someone and break a secret ID? Nuh uh.

 

Then again, tell him that villain mentalists will be using this power against him and see if his tune changes...

 

The character would have to encounter the hero and the secret ID. Upon meeeting Batman, the character would have no idea that Batman was Bruce Wayne unless the character previously met Bruce Wayne.

 

As GM, I would probably require a PER check after the character met someone in their hero ID and secret ID, and I'd apply modifiers for targets with Mental Defense.