Should This Be Allowed? (Detect Minds)

[Ellis]

I have a player who insists that his mentalist MUST have the following:

 

Detect Minds (Mental Group), 0 Phase Sense, Ranged, Discriminatory, Analyze, 360 Degree Sense, Targetting

 

 

The PC has Mind Scan, and I told him to use that, rather than this, since he seems to be mimicking Mind Scan, except that 'Detect Minds' uses no END and doesn't waste a phase. It requires PER and is reduced by Range, but also means he can't be attacked back through it.

 

Should I allow it?

Should I make him choose either the Mind Scan -or- the Detect, but not both?

[Jhamin]

One of the often accepted Hero Rules of Thumb is that it is generally not a good idea to use one power to duplicate the game function of another.

 

I would make him buy Mind Scan. If he is concerned about the activation, have him buy it continuous and always on. He could even give it the limit "only to sense, -1" to prevent others from using it to attack him. He can't attack them through it either, but it's safer.

[dugfromthearth]

Detect Minds (Mental Group), 0 Phase Sense, Ranged, Discriminatory, Analyze, 360 Degree Sense, Targetting

 

 

I would probably allow it with the following caveats:

 

it is LoS only - mental powers are LoS unless used through mind scan. So it is blocked by walls, other people etc.

 

LoS means he has to see it, so although he bought it as 360 degree sense, unless his sight is 360 degree sense that won't do him much good.

 

So this would be a power that let him look at someone and analyze their mind - which is not reading thoughts, it would be something like "human, strong willed". And if he had encountered their mind before and remembered them he could ID them by their mind (so he could ID batman and Bruce Wayne as being the same person by their mind).

 

 

This power would not duplicate mind scan since it would not give the range or indirect (non LoS) capabilities that mind scan give.

[McCoy]

As I read Mind Scan, it seems to be used for looking for a specific mind, "Where is Joe?" rather than "Is anybody home?" Detect Minds looks more like a way to get around the LOS limitation on many mental powers. I would allow it.

[DoctorItron]

The detect looks okay to me. It's pretty expensive and, although powerful, is not unbalancing. I would limit it to line of sight - it can detect invisible people, but not people on the other side of a building. The mentalist still needs Mind Scan to locate faraway people and attack people through walls.

 

Invisibility to the mental sense group would allow someone to hide from the power.

 

One possible headache for the GM is that the PC will be able to easily discern when an NPC has been replace by a robotic duplicate.

[Jeff]

I don't see a problem with it at all. It doesn't replicate Mind Scan, in that it does take range mods and so won't be usable across the planet like Mind Scan is. It's also a very natural power for a psi to have.

 

I don't see any reason to limit it to line of sight, not when it's not a sight-group power. (If it were, it'd get many of those adders free.)

[Zaratustra]

Yeah, it only nullifies two of the powers that are the only hope of a normal PC against a powerful mentalist - Flash and Darkness.

[Sociotard]

Originally posted by Zaratustra

Yeah, it only nullifies two of the powers that are the only hope of a normal PC against a powerful mentalist - Flash and Darkness.

Yes. That's the whole point behind blowing points on expensive detects. I hate having my characters face sense-affecting powers like invisible opponents, images, darkness, yadda yadda, so I almost always buy one of these powers to avoid them. Besides, this sense won't alway's save the mentalist. Oh sure, he can spot the marine hiding behind the smoke-screen, and he can manipulate his mind to his hearts content, but that ain't gonna stop the marines K-9 unit from ripping him to shreds (animal and robotic friends are great when facing mentalists)

[Talon]

Whenever a player MUST have something, I get suspicious. If you do decide to allow it, I'd run through a bunch of detection scenarios to make extra sure that you and he have the same understanding of what the power does. He might be expecting to use Analyze to determine a person's psychoses, mental history, etc., while you have a much more general sense in mind.

[TheEmerged]

Originally posted by Zaratustra

Yeah, it only nullifies two of the powers that are the only hope of a normal PC against a powerful mentalist - Flash and Darkness.

 

And invisibility...

[Agent X]

Guys, powers are supposed to be good for something. Too bad for flash/darkness/invisibility guy. I guess he'll get trashed the first go round and then come gunning for Mind Detector to get him out of the way first on the next fight.

 

Detect Minds has some similarities but there are major differences between it and Mind Scan. There is no problem with a character choosing either or both. It depends on the character conception.

[Lord Liaden]

I would want any "Detect Minds" with the Analyze ability to be very clearly defined as to what information it can provide before I would allow it. Otherwise it might start to tread on the territory of Telepathy as well as Mind Scan.

 

How does this Detect Power interact with Mental Defense? That's one of the major balancing factors against the effect of Mind Scan and Telepathy, and if this ability can bypass MD altogether that would make it too effective for its points IMHO.

 

If I were persuaded to allow this sense in my campaign, I would specify that any amount of Mental Defense would block it.

[Blue]

Yeh, it's fairly legal.

 

Consider requiring the same thing as with Mental powers: They would have to choose a "class of minds". Human, Alien, Animal, or Mechanical.

 

It still has the same restrictions as other senses. Just because they CAN see a mind doesn't mean they DO see it. Someone using... stealth(?) could hide from the detector. Or maybe a simple EGO roll can be used in a skill v. skill to hide from detect minds. Of course you could also use this as you argument to NOT ALLOW it ("There's no Stealth or Concealment equivalent to evade the detect, therefore I can't allow it.")

[Agent X]

Originally posted by Blue

Yeh, it's fairly legal.

 

Consider requiring the same thing as with Mental powers: They would have to choose a "class of minds". Human, Alien, Animal, or Mechanical.

 

It still has the same restrictions as other senses. Just because they CAN see a mind doesn't mean they DO see it. Someone using... stealth(?) could hide from the detector. Or maybe a simple EGO roll can be used in a skill v. skill to hide from detect minds. Of course you could also use this as you argument to NOT ALLOW it ("There's no Stealth or Concealment equivalent to evade the detect, therefore I can't allow it.")

That's a sad excuse to not allow it.

 

To everyone: Can anyone honestly say that this power is exceptionally hard to comprehend or that they haven't seen it in comics or movies? I've seen mental senses that operate like a mind scan in entertainment before but I have also seen what this detect would portray. Heck, I've seen characters in fiction that appear to have both abilities. Do you honestly think Professor X doesn't have something in addition to mind scan to do some of the things he is portrayed as doing?

[dugfromthearth]

if someone has Fred handy can they look up mental powers.

 

I believe that mental powers are restricted to LoS, and require actually seeing the target to be used - unless you have a mind scan link to the target.

 

Since this detect is defined as a mental power it would function in the same way - the mentalist would have to see the target in order to detect the mind.

 

So this would let the mentalist note that the guy in front of him is actually an automaton, or that the statue in front of him actually has a human mind, but it would not let them detect an invisible person.

 

I could be wrong. I don't have Fred with me. But I am fairly confident mental powers require LoS unless you have a mind scan link.

[Agent X]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

if someone has Fred handy can they look up mental powers.

 

I believe that mental powers are restricted to LoS, and require actually seeing the target to be used - unless you have a mind scan link to the target.

 

Since this detect is defined as a mental power it would function in the same way - the mentalist would have to see the target in order to detect the mind.

 

So this would let the mentalist note that the guy in front of him is actually an automaton, or that the statue in front of him actually has a human mind, but it would not let them detect an invisible person.

 

I could be wrong. I don't have Fred with me. But I am fairly confident mental powers require LoS unless you have a mind scan link.

I'm thinking targeting detects minds earns the right to be a targeting sense for mental powers.

[Jeff]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

if someone has Fred handy can they look up mental powers.

 

I believe that mental powers are restricted to LoS, and require actually seeing the target to be used - unless you have a mind scan link to the target.

 

Since this detect is defined as a mental power it would function in the same way - the mentalist would have to see the target in order to detect the mind.

 

So this would let the mentalist note that the guy in front of him is actually an automaton, or that the statue in front of him actually has a human mind, but it would not let them detect an invisible person.

 

I could be wrong. I don't have Fred with me. But I am fairly confident mental powers require LoS unless you have a mind scan link.

Mental Powers are generally line of sight, yes. However, I'm not sure why on earth this would be defined as a mental power (for that game-mechanical purpose). I take it it's being defined as a sense in the mental sense group, but that's another thing entirely and doesn't carry a line of sight restriction any more than Mind Scan does.

[dugfromthearth]

okay mental sense group.

 

what are the rules for a mental sense group?

[Cyragnome]

Hrm...I have a mentalist with a very similar power (based off of Spatial Awareness as a Mental Sense) and I didn't see it as too unbalancing...there are some differences from Mind Scan like Range Penalties (you still need to make perception rolls with penalties, unless you take Telescopic on it, right?)...there are pluses and minuses to it as well, such you can't hear with it, see colors, read, etc. I don't know, seems okay to me...(as a player...well, since it's my character, and I'd allow it in the game I GM )

[Jeff]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

okay mental sense group.

 

what are the rules for a mental sense group?

It'll be vulnerable to mental sense group Flashes, Darkness, Invisibility, etc. Since it's an unusual sense group, there aren't the free adders you can get basing it on (e.g.) the sight group. It's going to be subject to normal range modifiers.

[badger3k]

What about ...

 

Detect life? It's usable in many fantasy and sci-fi campaigns. Detect minds is pretty similar. I'd use it as a mental sense rather than a power, with the discriminatory and analyze features allowing the character to tell if a mind is human, alien, whatever, and if he's encountered it before. Maybe tell something about it (fatigued, asleep) - I'd watch out for detecting mind control, but that is certainly an allowable possibility - maybe a power vs ego roll or something to hide the mind control. Depending on the genre this can be useful but not overpowering. Like others have posted I'd work with the player to set the limits on it. The targeting aspect would work like mind scan to allow targeting, but if the character can't tell for sure which mind is the villains... (a per roll would still have to be made in any case for the discriminatory or analyze, with appropriate penalties). I might allow mental defense to work against this, depending on the nature of the defense (mind shield vs strong will, for example).

 

Not too bad for a pretty common power for most psychic characters in comics.

[prestidigitator]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

if someone has Fred handy can they look up mental powers.

 

I believe that mental powers are restricted to LoS, and require actually seeing the target to be used - unless you have a mind scan link to the target.

 

Since this detect is defined as a mental power it would function in the same way - the mentalist would have to see the target in order to detect the mind.

 

So this would let the mentalist note that the guy in front of him is actually an automaton, or that the statue in front of him actually has a human mind, but it would not let them detect an invisible person.

 

I could be wrong. I don't have Fred with me. But I am fairly confident mental powers require LoS unless you have a mind scan link.

This would not be a Mental Power, necessarily, but would belong to the Mental Sense Group.

 

Originally posted by Zaratustra

Yeah, it only nullifies two of the powers that are the only hope of a normal PC against a powerful mentalist - Flash and Darkness.

You could do something to balance this, like: allow it to be used to detect minds, and thus remove some of the benefits of Darkness, Invisibility, etc., but do not allow it to be used to establish Line of Sight for Mental Powers (the character would additionally have to use Mind Scan for that).

[Christougher]

Originally posted by dugfromthearth

And if he had encountered their mind before and remembered them he could ID them by their mind (so he could ID batman and Bruce Wayne as being the same person by their mind).

 

This, and a later comment about no Stealth or Concealment make this a game breaker for me. Instantly and automatically, without fooling, be able to identify someone and break a secret ID? Nuh uh.

 

Then again, tell him that villain mentalists will be using this power against him and see if his tune changes...

[Agent X]

Originally posted by prestidigitator

This would not be a Mental Power, necessarily, but would belong to the Mental Sense Group.

 

 

You could do something to balance this, like: allow it to be used to detect minds, and thus remove some of the benefits of Darkness, Invisibility, etc., but do not allow it to be used to establish Line of Sight for Mental Powers (the character would additionally have to use Mind Scan for that).

Targeting Sense can be bought on detects.

 

I think some of you guys aren't reasoning to effect. I think you are reasoning to what you've always done.

[Trebuchet]

I'd allow such a Detect, but it would have significant restrictions. Detect Mind would allow you to know something with a mind is near (LOS maybe). Discriminating might tell you if it's a man, a dog, or a computer. Analyse would permit you to know it's a man, and possibly how intelligent he is or if he's sane. I would probably never allow it to determine actual identity. Want a Targeting Sense? Buy Mind Scan.